Fire Tocchet

[PainForShane]

Honestly re: Tocchet, I don't think it's just the room (though that is the case too)

We've been consistently terrible in the offensive zone for the last three years. Over last summer what kind of adjustment does Tocc make? Fires his defensive coach who coached us to the top PK and one of the best defenses in the league (Scott Allen who was loyal / well-liked but apparently wasn't vocal enough in the room), keeps the guy who ran the messed up offense (John Maclean), and then hires Phil Housley, a HoF offensive defensemen whose Sabres were one of the worst defensive teams in the league during his tenure (3rd worst and 9th worst respectively, to be fair it might have been goaltending over there). Even better John Maclean starts running the penalty kill which makes no sense at all.

Team's compete level aside (and yes that is true too), basically I don't think Tocc is smart enough to run a coaching staff, consistently adjust mid-game or any of that. And now we have problems with the team not showing up on big games. Put it all together and what is he even doing as a head coach, honestly

Phil Housley Sabres stats (he was HC for all of 2017-2018 and 2018-2019):
https://www.espn.com/nhl/standings/_/sort/pointsagainst/dir/asc/season/2018
https://www.espn.com/nhl/standings/_/sort/pointsagainst/dir/asc/season/2019

Tocchet / Scott Allen (paywall):
Scott Allen will not return as Coyotes assistant coach

 

[Jamieh]

Why can't Keller return to rookie form?

View attachment 310311

IMO the only way he gets there is a linemate doing the heavy lifting and we just dont have that guy right now. Other teams know him and he's not that hard to stop. I dont mean he won't have years with those stats but I dint think they will be the norm, he is young however so he could get better and smarter.

 

[PainForShane]

Yeah, I cant see any big change this season. Chayka brought in Kessel and Hall. Those were the moves. I can see a few tweaks by the deadline - try to acquire a bit more size and grit - nut nothing major.

Given Chaykas track record I can see Keller on the block next summer.

Keller's 7m+ extension kicks in this summer -- the only way we get rid of him now is by including another asset (probably a first rounder). Don't think Chayka will cut bait so soon (esp with a new owner)

Why can't Keller return to rookie form?

View attachment 310311

Good question. Most of that is on Keller, some on Tocc and some on Chayka signing him to a really long extension before he demonstrated sustained excellence IMO. My personal opinion is maybe he is too young to handle all that money / security, but I can't back that up with anything. To my eyes he's playing hard at all -- but how many 21 years do you know who would play hard if they have ~50m coming to them in the next few years? Of course none of these 21 years olds would be NHLers so there's that

 

[PainForShane]

IMO the only way he gets there is a linemate doing the heavy lifting and we just dont have that guy right now. Other teams know him and he's not that hard to stop. I dont mean he won't have years with those stats but I dint think they will be the norm, he is young however so he could get better and smarter.

Garland...? I've said that before though.

What really grinds me though is that Kessel is our 3rd leading scorer rn playing most of the season outside the top 6 (with Step and Crouse as linemates). He was top 6 in Pit and is somehow outside the top six here. You give him top six minutes and poof there is 60+ points this year (also you free up Garland to hustle Keller / Schmaltz's line which I think would kickstart them too, at least it's worth a try given both are on long term deals and we need them to get going)

 

[rt]

Honestly re: Tocchet, I don't think it's just the room (though that is the case too)

We've been consistently terrible in the offensive zone for the last three years. Over last summer what kind of adjustment does Tocc make? Fires his defensive coach who coached us to the top PK and one of the best defenses in the league (Scott Allen who was loyal / well-liked but apparently wasn't vocal enough in the room), keeps the guy who ran the messed up offense (John Maclean), and then hires Phil Housley, a HoF offensive defensemen whose Sabres were one of the worst defensive teams in the league during his tenure (3rd worst and 9th worst respectively, to be fair it might have been goaltending over there). Even better John Maclean starts running the penalty kill which makes no sense at all.

Team's compete level aside (and yes that is true too), basically I don't think Tocc is smart enough to run a coaching staff, consistently adjust mid-game or any of that. And now we have problems with the team not showing up on big games. Put it all together and what is he even doing as a head coach, honestly

Phil Housley Sabres stats (he was HC for all of 2017-2018 and 2018-2019):
https://www.espn.com/nhl/standings/_/sort/pointsagainst/dir/asc/season/2018
https://www.espn.com/nhl/standings/_/sort/pointsagainst/dir/asc/season/2019

Tocchet / Scott Allen (paywall):
Scott Allen will not return as Coyotes assistant coach

So fire Tocchet and MacLean and hire Gallant? Run with Gallant and Housley?

 

[PainForShane]

So fire Tocchet and MacLean and hire Gallant? Run with Gallant and Housley?

Something like that. Personally I'd prefer Lavi but either is an improvement.

Also Lavi and Housley were together in NSH (2014-2017, Housley coached the NSH D into an offensive AND defensive force), that connection could work in our favor here.

But yeah either is an improvement tbh

 

[Fuhrious]

Okay. So we aren’t going to trade our whole leadership group in-season. Especially if we want to keep Hall. I might say the same goes for the coaching staff, but I’m less sure of that.

Say things go south and it’s clear we are losing Hall anyway. Fire all the coaches, and trade the likes of Kessel, Stepan, Goligoski, Raanta, and maybe even OEL. That’s sooo much turnover and change. Does that set us back yet another entire season?

Do we need to suffer another 82 game adjustment period for the latest re-tool? Or do we have the ingredients we need to fight our way out of this? Make changes within rather than without? And right this ship without first sinking it?

That's just it. First, I'd really like to see the current roster under a coach who demands a 60-minute effort and a 200-foot game, rather than hearing the same post-game hand-wringing with zero accountability for the same half dozen individuals. Second, I think you're being wildly optimistic if you truly think the team wont be forced to make salary dump "sweetened" deals to dump the likes of Stepan, Kessel, and now Raanta. Nobody at this point is going to touch Kessel in particular with a ten-foot pole.

 

[Jamieh]

Garland...? I've said that before though.

What really grinds me though is that Kessel is our 3rd leading scorer rn playing most of the season outside the top 6 (with Step and Crouse as linemates). He was top 6 in Pit and is somehow outside the top six here. You give him top six minutes and poof there is 60+ points this year (also you free up Garland to hustle Keller / Schmaltz's line which I think would kickstart them too, at least it's worth a try given both are on long term deals and we need them to get going)

Garland presently isnt that guy, he's an energy guy who gets points. I'm thinking more of a number 1 center. Kessel doesn't deserve those minutes so I'm not in favor of rewarding his poor efforts.

 

[Jamieh]

So fire Tocchet and MacLean and hire Gallant? Run with Gallant and Housley?

Gallant comes with an Assistant.

 

[hbk]

Do we give Housley and credit for emergence of Chychrun this year?

or was this always going to happen and the injury to Hjarlmarsson just fast tracked the minutes?

 

[PainForShane]

Garland presently isnt that guy, he's an energy guy who gets points. I'm thinking more of a number 1 center. Kessel doesn't deserve those minutes so I'm not in favor of rewarding his poor efforts.

Fully agree on the 1C -- that should be Hayton in a few years. Good point about Keller Schmaltz needing that, that's something I hadn't considered but seems obvious in hindsight.

Re: Kessel, I don't necessarily disagree re: the playing time he's deserved (actually I do but not enough to fight about it, you have a point re: poor production / effort for most of this year), but more importantly we need consistent secondary scoring. Kessel / Step / Crouse is not a scoring line no matter how you look at it

But yes, a 1C would absolutely help. I'd argue though that most likely they won't be available via trade / FA, Hayton's probably our best hope long term

 

[Fuhrious]

Garland...? I've said that before though.

What really grinds me though is that Kessel is our 3rd leading scorer rn playing most of the season outside the top 6 (with Step and Crouse as linemates). He was top 6 in Pit and is somehow outside the top six here. You give him top six minutes and poof there is 60+ points this year (also you free up Garland to hustle Keller / Schmaltz's line which I think would kickstart them too, at least it's worth a try given both are on long term deals and we need them to get going)

Kessel absolutely was a top 6 guy up until early to mid December, at which point he had effectively played himself out of his spot by being invisible at best and more often an active detriment at worst in every single game. To imply that slapping him back in one of those spots and points will magically follow is utter fantasy.

 

[Jamieh]

Fully agree on the 1C -- that should be Hayton in a few years. Good point about Keller Schmaltz needing that, that's something I hadn't considered but seems obvious in hindsight.

Re: Kessel, I don't necessarily disagree re: the playing time he's deserved (actually I do but not enough to fight about it, you have a point re: poor production / effort for most of this year), but more importantly we need consistent secondary scoring. Kessel / Step / Crouse is not a scoring line no matter how you look at it

But yes, a 1C would absolutely help. I'd argue though that most likely they won't be available via trade / FA, Hayton's probably our best hope long term

Kessel was 2nd in forward time on ice yesterday behind Hall.

 

[Mangosteen]

Ummm. Are you guys wanting the cup just handed to us in January? We are still in the hunt for playoffs in the uber close Pacific. Hell we are fighting for 1st in the Pacific. We have our team, we have our coaches just enjoy the ride. Are we just upset because we are not talking about drafting top 10? Its a journey and we are moving forward, enjoy amigos

 

[Lawson of Anarchy]

but more importantly we need consistent secondary scoring. Kessel / Step / Crouse is not a scoring line no matter how you look at it

You've got some pretty hot takes today

 

[XX]

Chayka stood with him during that 20 game winless streak or whatever it was and he’ll stick with him now.

Apart from a few players who always bring a consistent effort (namely Hall, Garland, and Chychrun) there are far too many who are inconsistent from an urgency perspective and yet others who seem complacent far more often than not.

I don’t know what the truth is. But from a fan’s perspective much of the team, especially the leadership group and the core (OEL, Kessel, Goligoski, Stepan, Keller, and Schmaltz) APPEAR to be complacent, lackadaisical, and nonchalant regardless of situation. Big game, small game, heated game, structures game, losing streak, winning streak, protecting lead, chasing game, whatever, etc.

So what’s the problem? Did the GM bring in and lock up a leadership group/core that is too passive and indifferent? Or is the coach failing to get what we need out of these guys? I don’t think any of us fans can know the answer.

Kessel was the breaking point. A liability on the ice that can't be used in all situations that had no chemistry with anyone and had to be forced into the top 6 even though he should have been healthy scratched at points. Imagine how different the Coyotes fate is if they instead chose to add a responsible two way guy that doesn't quit like Zucker instead of the literal physical manifestation of all that is opposite of Tocchet's system.

Goligoski and Stepan have never been consistent or good leaders. OEL, having nobody to lead with, looks like a disinterested idiot most nights.

Keller and Schmaltz are your typical mercurial offense first guys. They aren't the problem until there's nothing to support them which we're seeing currently.

The coach may not be 'actively' causing this situation but he's also not alleviating any of it and has zero game management skills, something that cost him his Vezina caliber starter.

 

[PainForShane]

Kessel was 2nd in forward time on ice yesterday behind Hall.

He's still lined up ES with Step and Crouse. He's 2nd in ice time because he's soaking up PP minutes (and looking terrible while doing it to your previous point).

Kessel absolutely was a top 6 guy up until early to mid December, at which point he had effectively played himself out of his spot by being invisible at best and more often an active detriment at worst in every single game. To imply that slapping him back in one of those spots and points will magically follow is utter fantasy.

I might be remembering this wrong, but I'm pretty sure Kessel was out of the top 6 after 10 or so games (maybe a month-ish). For maybe 3/4th of the season he's been playing 3rd line with Crouse and either Soda or Step (Soda and Step switched center spots maybe a month ago-ish? Not sure re: timing).

I'm absolutely not defending Kessel's compete level or the line placement he 'deserves' rn. I mean Schmaltz and Keller have had top 6 placement all year and I don't think they've 'deserved' that either tbh, but we have to do as much as we can for them bc we have them for long term and need them to score. Similarly we need Kessel to score. Regardless of what he's produced so far this year (which despite lack of effort is not terrible considering he's been bottom 6 for most of it), the version of our team that makes the playoffs / does some damage is a team that isn't terrible at scoring goals, that team has a 60p+ Phil Kessel.

Fuhrious do you really think Kessel won't score if you put him with Hall? We can agree to disagree here but Hall's been that good I think he would elevate Kessel the same way Geno did in Pittsburgh. You get both of them flying that frees up Garland who can grind his way to goals anywhere in the lineup. That line did look good for the most part in the 3-4 games immediately post Hall trade

 

[Jamieh]

He's still lined up ES with Step and Crouse. He's 2nd in ice time because he's soaking up PP minutes (and looking terrible while doing it to your previous point).



I might be remembering this wrong, but I'm pretty sure Kessel was out of the top 6 after 10 or so games (maybe a month-ish). For maybe 3/4th of the season he's been playing 3rd line with Crouse and either Soda or Step (Soda and Step switched center spots maybe a month ago-ish? Not sure re: timing).

I'm absolutely not defending Kessel's compete level or the line placement he 'deserves' rn. I mean Schmaltz and Keller have had top 6 placement all year and I don't think they've 'deserved' that either tbh, but we have to do as much as we can for them bc we have them for long term and need them to score. Same argument with Kessel. Regardless of what he's produced so far this year (which despite lack of effort is not terrible considering he's been bottom 6 for most of it), the version of our team that makes the playoffs / does some damage is a team that isn't terrible at scoring goals, that team has a 60p+ Phil Kessel.

Fuhrious do you really think Kessel won't score if you put him with Hall? We can agree to disagree here but Hall's been that good I think he would elevate Kessel the same way Geno did in Pittsburgh. You get both of them flying that frees up Garland who can grind his way to goals anywhere in the lineup. That line did look good for the most part in the 3-4 games immediately post Hall trade

Hall plays fast, Phil doesn't. I think that would be a bad combination for both. Phil has the highest TOI of rw on the team, not sure what more you want the coach to do with him??

 

[PainForShane]

Hall plays fast, Phil doesn't. I think that would be a bad combination for both. Phil has the highest TOI of rw on the team, not sure what more you want the coach to do with him??

Put him with ES linemates that are even a little bit competent on offense, leave him there for at least 2-3 games, I think he will play well enough to stick. Last look he had with offensive ES linemates (Hall / DVo) was 4 games-ish immediately following the Hall trade, he looked pretty good there until we got rolled by Vegas

 

[Jamieh]

Put him with ES linemates that are even a little bit competent on offense, leave him there for at least 2-3 games, I think he will play well enough to stick. Last look he had with offensive ES linemates (Hall / DVo) was 4 games-ish immediately following the Hall trade, he looked pretty good there until we got rolled by Vegas

If you could choose a winger for Hall you would drop Garland for Kessel?? Not sure that is progress? Kessel should be driving a line not depending on another winger to do it. That's why people are frustrated by him presently.

 

[CNYCrunchfan1]

If Keumper comes back fully healthy and in form all will be forgiven and the team will seemingly play better though technically not better. Just as before. Just ride it out. I think we have to see if they are really as soft and weak minded as it appears before we go making major changes in coaching or players.

Tocchet is working with what he's got. Personally, I think Chayka needs to maybe change his thinking a bit more than Tocchet.

 

[PainForShane]

If you could choose a winger for Hall you would drop Garland for Kessel?? Not sure that is progress? Kessel should be driving a line not depending on another winger to do it. That's why people are frustrated by him presently.

No, I would move Garland to a different line. Or at least try moving Garland for a few games before moving him back if need be, depending on how the experiment goes. I definitely would try new things once we're already down 5-0. At that point why not?

Alternative 1:
Hall + DVo + Garland = very good at offense
Crouse + Step + Kessel = very good at offense for maybe 1 game every 5? Invisible at offense for the rest

Alternative 2:
Hall + DVo + Kessel = Likely still very good at offense, they were when they were together for multiple games last time
Anybody + anybody + Garland = good enough at offense to chip in a goal every other game or so (e.g., secondary scoring)

It's not necessarily about rewarding ppl for ice time / effort, you don't have to put your best forwards together at ES all the time (see McDavid / Draisaitl who are on different lines). Believe me I understand the frustration re: Kessel but it's about giving your team the best chance to win and to do that we need consistent secondary scoring. Honestly don't care how we do it as long as we get there

 

[Foggy1097]

This group is tired...you can just tell. They have to be held accountable for lackadaisical effort too often and not enough urgency in their game, but they haven’t had three days off in a row since what, sometime in October? They are on empty. If we get back from break and see this garbage right out of the gate then it’s time to be a little more worried I think.
Chayka will have 2-4 weeks to evaluate the team with Kuemper back and Hammer getting more minutes, but I don’t see how he doesn’t come to the conclusion that he has to make at least one more trade before the deadline. He shoved his chips in by getting Hall, so he might as well double down and really try to fortify the team. He has to explore every option available to him to make sure these guys get in the playoffs. The only way they even start thinking about moving on from Toc is if they don’t make it in...

 

[Fuhrious]

I'm baffled that you think flipping Kessel to the top line and pairing him with Hall will somehow magically "just work". IIRC RT tried that the first game or two after the Hall trade, and Kessel looked exactly as he has in every game bar @Pittsburgh and @Chicago...zero motor or compete, routine passes bouncing over/off his stick, a complete non-entity on both ES and PP1. Garland has consistently been one of the team's better players, full stop and has proven he has at least some chemistry with Hall and Dvorak. Throwing good money after bad on Kessel is the definition of insanity.

The real problem I have RE: Kessel is RT's continued coddling of his piss poor play, presumably because the team feels beholden to his b.s. "iron man" streak. Any other player would have absolutely spent time in the press box this season, but Kessel is immune. It furthers the culture of non-accountability and toxicity, and isnt the look I want from the team I support. It's absolutely the primary reason I feel like Tocchet has taken this team as far as his skills as a HC allow and its time to move on.

 

[Jamieh]

Hey Taylor we would like too sign you to a long term contract in the summer. In the meantime we would like you to play with this boat anchor who doesn't work hard, plays little defence, and generally doesn't seem to give a poop. What do you mean you would rather play with this fireplug who would do anything to win and never quits?