Fire Ken Holland

[Aerchon]

Forums have no affect on the game whatsoever and cannot jinx the team.

I suspect the Oilers will rebound and play decent hockey. They are competing with Winnipeg and Montreal for the #2 spot in this division. Let's remember their past 9 games in terms of series excluding the part Toronto games.

2-0 vs Canucks
2-0 vs Flames
1-1 vs Winnipeg
1-0 vs Montreal
2-0 vs Ottawa

I hope the team bounces back quick. I think Toronto is a strong team but there is no way anyone can rationally ignore how they absolutely dominated this team.

You can't ignore those last 3, we got beat as bad or worse than Ottawa. It's a very bad indicator of the teams ceiling and overall capabilities. If we make the playoffs and end up playing Toronto in the first round we get swept like a garbage Calgary team does when they over achieve and squeek into the playoffs.

Anyone actually think that would be a successful second year for Holland's Oilers? Making the playoffs and getting swept by Toronto?

 

[JBear]

I hope the team bounces back quick. I think Toronto is a strong team but there is no way anyone can rationally ignore how they absolutely dominated this team.

You can't ignore those last 3, we got beat as bad or worse than Ottawa. It's a very bad indicator of the teams ceiling and overall capabilities. If we make the playoffs and end up playing Toronto in the first round we get swept like a garbage Calgary team does when they over achieve and squeek into the playoffs.

Anyone actually think that would be a successful second year for Holland's Oilers? Making the playoffs and getting swept by Toronto?

Oh for sure. It showed weakness in their defensive game and the weakness when they play a strong defensive team. But also sometimes a team just has your number as their style just is perfect against your team. We'll need to see how they rebound vs the rest of the division (especially Winnipeg and Montreal) and talk playoffs when they arrive). if they finish second or third and lose to TO in the second round I'd say this season was a mild improvement and would be minimally happier.

 

[Aerchon]

Oh for sure. It showed weakness in their defensive game and the weakness when they play a strong defensive team. But also sometimes a team just has your number as their style just is perfect against your team. We'll need to see how they rebound vs the rest of the division (especially Winnipeg and Montreal) and talk playoffs when they arrive). if they finish second or third and lose to TO in the second round I'd say this season was a mild improvement and would be minimally happier.

Agreed and hopefully in the scenario you describe above we don't get swept schooled like we did in this three game stint. Getting swept sucks.

 

[AddyTheWrath]

Good Moves:

• Bringing back Puljujarvi
• Barrie signing
• Drafting Holloway, Broberg, Savoie
• Bringing in Archibald on PTO
• Ennis trade
• Neal for Lucic

Bad Moves:

• Turris signing
• Kassian AAV
• AA trade
• Green trade

Medicore/TBD:

• Kahun signing
• Haas/Nygard signings
• Bear AAV

Probably missing a lot but off the top of my head. AA trade & Kassian AAV are probably the most egregious but the pandemic makes both look worse in hindsight.

 

[JBear]

Good Moves:

• Bringing back Puljujarvi
• Barrie signing
• Drafting Holloway, Broberg, Savoie
• Bringing in Archibald on PTO
• Ennis trade
• Neal for Lucic

Bad Moves:

• Turris signing
• Kassian AAV
• AA trade
• Green trade

Medicore/TBD:

• Kahun signing
• Haas/Nygard signings
• Bear AAV

Probably missing a lot but off the top of my head. AA trade & Kassian AAV are probably the most egregious but the pandemic makes both look worse in hindsight.

I didn't mind the AA move and the pandemic really messed up that deal, something Holland could not have foreseen. AA now has 4 goals 8 points in 13 games with the Kings and doesn't seem to be bleeding defensively.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Good Moves:

• Bringing back Puljujarvi
• Barrie signing
• Drafting Holloway, Broberg, Savoie
• Bringing in Archibald on PTO
• Ennis trade
• Neal for Lucic

Bad Moves:

• Turris signing
• Kassian AAV
• AA trade
• Green trade

Medicore/TBD:

• Kahun signing
• Haas/Nygard signings
• Bear AAV

Probably missing a lot but off the top of my head. AA trade & Kassian AAV are probably the most egregious but the pandemic makes both look worse in hindsight.

The Neal for Lucic deal isn't looking so hot this year.

 

[LaGu]

No, don't fire Holland.

 

[Oilhawks]

Good Moves:

• Bringing back Puljujarvi
• Barrie signing
• Drafting Holloway, Broberg, Savoie
• Bringing in Archibald on PTO
• Ennis trade
• Neal for Lucic

Bad Moves:

• Turris signing
• Kassian AAV
• AA trade
• Green trade

Medicore/TBD:

• Kahun signing
• Haas/Nygard signings
• Bear AAV

Probably missing a lot but off the top of my head. AA trade & Kassian AAV are probably the most egregious but the pandemic makes both look worse in hindsight.

This is how I see it as well. This offseason will be the determining factor.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Probably missing a lot but off the top of my head. AA trade & Kassian AAV are probably the most egregious but the pandemic makes both look worse in hindsight.

people LOVED the AA trade at the time which is baffling
(I thought it was just OK)

 

[Oilhawks]

people LOVED the AA trade at the time which is baffling
(I thought it was just OK)

I liked it for sure, but a big part of what I liked about it was wrecked by Covid. If he played out the season and didn't gain traction, they could have traded his rights to recoup an asset (maybe one of the 2nd's back if he played fairly well).

After the pause and flat cap any chance of getting an asset for him was out the window.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I generally liked Hollands offseason but not doing anything with the goaltending was risky. Koskinen has been very poor this year and Smith can’t carry the load. He mismanaged the third goalie.

Alot of his moves haven’t really worked. Kassian extension was bad. AA trade. Turris signing. It’s starting to look like his good decisions aren’t really outweighing his bad ones.

Its hard to really know how much of this is a gm issue and how much is a coaching issue. Tippett doesn’t to have an idea on who to put in the line up, line combos, d pairings or making adjustments.

Ultimately Holland is in charge of Tippett. I feel like hes going to be too patient with the coach and roster. Figure out where this team is at and start making some hard decisions whether its trades or dealing with the coach.

Its very simple. In two years and in effect 3 offseasons (due to Covid) Holland has essentially brought in one good player. Barrie. Thats it. Unless you want to go searching hard and say Archibald, who wouldn't even be good enough to be on the Leafs taxi squad. The vast majority of players Holland has airlifted in here are nothing. I think of the forwards I wanted to hope Ennis would be something but hit him once in a game and he completely disappears. Players like Nygaard lol. Turris, Sheahan type additions weren't much either. But its even possible Turris is presently a worse player.

 

[AddyTheWrath]

Its very simple. In two years and in effect 3 offseasons (due to Covid) Holland has essentially brought in one good player. Barrie. Thats it. Unless you want to go searching hard and say Archibald, who wouldn't even be good enough to be on the Leafs taxi squad. The vast majority of players Holland has airlifted in here are nothing. I think of the forwards I wanted to hope Ennis would be something but hit him once in a game and he completely disappears. Players like Nygaard lol. Turris, Sheahan type additions weren't much either. But its even possible Turris is presently a worse player.

Haas, Puljujarvi

 

[Stoneman89]

Its very simple. In two years and in effect 3 offseasons (due to Covid) Holland has essentially brought in one good player. Barrie. Thats it. Unless you want to go searching hard and say Archibald, who wouldn't even be good enough to be on the Leafs taxi squad. The vast majority of players Holland has airlifted in here are nothing. I think of the forwards I wanted to hope Ennis would be something but hit him once in a game and he completely disappears. Players like Nygaard lol. Turris, Sheahan type additions weren't much either. But its even possible Turris is presently a worse player.

Well, to be fair, there was only so much extra $$$'s available to round out the roster due to Chia's work. Barrie took a haircut on what he was being paid before, in a one year "prove it" deal, so that was okay. Which then left about 10 million to sign about 6 guys. Mere table scraps. The Kahun deal has been meh, but is only for a year. The Turris deal was not a good one, especially since it has a 2nd deal. Absolutely no reason to give him that year.

 

[Soundwave]

Yeah Ken needs to do better with some of his low money signings. The Leafs are getting great production from guys like Simmonds and Spezza, Oilers are not getting anything like that. It's only a "value" signing if the player is actually doing something.

 

[trick91]

Those players want to play in their home city. Hell, Spezza said he would retire if anyone claimed him off waivers.

 

[Stoneman89]

Those players want to play in their home city. Hell, Spezza said he would retire if anyone claimed him off waivers.

Plus Tavares promised him a sleepover so they could have a Leaf pajama party.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Haas, Puljujarvi

Haas contributes no offense at this level. To that hes just another P Russel taking up minutes. I mean I like the player, but there is nothing at all about the player that stands out. The difference between a club like us, and a good club is the guys that are role players can actually contribute. here we're just hoping they get off the ice without a GA.

Pulju? Can't give much credit for that. Basically what I think occurred is that Pulju growed up and got mentally and physically stronger. I credit time and some maturity, and getting laid for that.. He's probably burned some carbon off the pistons by now. jk aside When Pulju used to get frustrated who did he have to turn to. Now he has a puppy and a gal, and no joke, that appreciably adds resilience in people needing it. Particularly if those people are in foreign lands, culture, where almost everything is different.

Wouldnt surprise me to hear that the GF had a greater role in Pulju return and focus than anybody. Hockey wives tend to know where its at..

I'm kind of serious kind of jk in this post. Hopefully not offensive in anyway.

 

[Oilhawks]

Haas contributes no offense at this level. To that hes just another P Russel taking up minutes. I mean I like the player, but there is nothing at all about the player that stands out. The difference between a club like us, and a good club is the guys that are role players can actually contribute. here we're just hoping they get off the ice without a GA.

Pulju? Can't give much credit for that. Basically what I think occurred is that Pulju growed up and got mentally and physically stronger. I credit time and some maturity, and getting laid for that.. He's probably burned some carbon off the pistons by now. jk aside When Pulju used to get frustrated who did he have to turn to. Now he has a puppy and a gal, and no joke, that appreciably adds resilience in people needing it. Particularly if those people are in foreign lands, culture, where almost everything is different.

Wouldnt surprise me to hear that the GF had a greater role in Pulju return and focus than anybody. Hockey wives tend to know where its at..

I'm kind of serious kind of jk in this post. Hopefully not offensive in anyway.

The credit you give to Ken is that he had to patience to work with Pulju to get him to come back rather than dealing him for a Lias Andersson / Gauthier or a middling pick.

 

[AddyTheWrath]

Haas contributes no offense at this level. To that hes just another P Russel taking up minutes. I mean I like the player, but there is nothing at all about the player that stands out. The difference between a club like us, and a good club is the guys that are role players can actually contribute. here we're just hoping they get off the ice without a GA.

Pulju? Can't give much credit for that. Basically what I think occurred is that Pulju growed up and got mentally and physically stronger. I credit time and some maturity, and getting laid for that.. He's probably burned some carbon off the pistons by now. jk aside When Pulju used to get frustrated who did he have to turn to. Now he has a puppy and a gal, and no joke, that appreciably adds resilience in people needing it. Particularly if those people are in foreign lands, culture, where almost everything is different.

Wouldnt surprise me to hear that the GF had a greater role in Pulju return and focus than anybody. Hockey wives tend to know where its at..

I'm kind of serious kind of jk in this post. Hopefully not offensive in anyway.

I agree that Haas hasn't shown much in terms of production but he's still a decent player - just surrounded by plugs.

Let's just agree to disagree on JP. He definitely wasn't coming back under the old regime and not all GMs would have held onto him instead of selling low.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The credit you give to Ken is that he had to patience to work with Pulju to get him to come back rather than dealing him for a Lias Andersson / Gauthier or a middling pick.

Sure, but this praise in relation to a disaster bomb it down level of stupid GM that was Chiarelli. Virtually anybody would be a better choice than trade away stars Chiarelli. For that hire Nicholson needs to be put out to pasture. Along with K Lowe and some scouts.

I'll give credit though for Holland not being stupid, I never felt he was. I was always suspicious of Chiarelli and quite vocal about all that.

I'm just frustrated now. But I'll get back in the sun and great weather today and all will be fine. I was out there already. Shirt weather, again, really nice.

enjoy the day Oilers fans.

 

[Draiskull]

Good Moves:

• Bringing back Puljujarvi
• Barrie signing
• Drafting Holloway, Broberg, Savoie
• Bringing in Archibald on PTO
• Ennis trade
• Neal for Lucic

Bad Moves:

• Turris signing
• Kassian AAV
• AA trade
• Green trade

Medicore/TBD:

• Kahun signing
• Haas/Nygard signings
• Bear AAV

Probably missing a lot but off the top of my head. AA trade & Kassian AAV are probably the most egregious but the pandemic makes both look worse in hindsight.

The 'Bad Moves' are only bad due to hindsight. At the time these deals were made they all looked good.
Bear at 2x2 is a good move not TBD. He could have easily held out for twice as much.
Kassian AAV is the worst Holland move thus far and even that is just 900K too much due to bad timing.
Getting AA without spending the 1st was good risk at deadline. Looks bad since he did work out.

 

[Oilhawks]

@Drivesaitl I think you had replied to my defense of Holland in another thread (I can't recall as I lost it in the flurry of posts last night). Just wanted to comment on what I recall

I agree that the Kassian signing and AA trade are his two big mistakes, but they're nothing compared to the Chiarelli fiasco and even the best GMs have blemishes on their transactions. Both of these moves look appreciably worse due to the Covid situation.

We both aren't big fans of Kassian and I could have done without him as well but I understand the idea of wanting to retain a guy that has perceived grit and is 'functionally tough' (has flashes of skill). Of course, the issue being is that he is entirely inconsistent in bringing the toughness and or skill and is prone to becoming a selfish player (see Turtle situation). If Holland didn't spend the money on him he would have had to spend it on a similar 'tough customer' that usually get overpaid (RE point production and consistency) in this league. My comment about the overpayment of $1m is more regarding at the time. The overpayment is higher now given the circumstances.

AA I liked better than you did but as I commented in another post the trade looked like a decent bet pre-covid. He would have had more time to adjust to the team (pending no injuries) had the season not been cut short and if he ended up not working out here they could have recouped a pick with the cap not being flat. Since the cap was flat no one wanted to take on the qualifying amount which wasn't too bad in a non cap world. From what I've seen he's doing decent on LA but the circumstances on that team are different. I would have liked to keep Gagner around as a lockerroom guy too but I think the move was purely for cap purposes.

The Ennis trade was good value, and the Green trade is a nothingburger, it could have turned out as a decent rental if not for covid. The goaltending situation sucks but the guy I wanted, Greiss, hasn't looked too hot and I feel he was overpaid.

I'll be all aboard the 'fire Ken Holland' train if he shits the bed in the offseason. It will be tougher than people will want to think (due to flat cap and teams being more conservative) but the cap is now here to make the moves.

 

[Oilhawks]

The 'Bad Moves' are only bad due to hindsight. At the time these deals were made they all looked good.
Bear at 2x2 is a good move not TBD. He could have easily held out for twice as much.
Kassian AAV is the worst Holland move thus far and even that is just 900K too much due to bad timing.
Getting AA without spending the 1st was good risk at deadline. Looks bad since he did work out.

Agreed. Regarding Bear, can you imagine if they signed him to a long term contract like Marino? This place would be in an even bigger meltdown right now.

 

[Draiskull]

I agree that Haas hasn't shown much in terms of production but he's still a decent player - just surrounded by plugs.

Let's just agree to disagree on JP. He definitely wasn't coming back under the old regime and not all GMs would have held onto him instead of selling low.

It would have been easy for Holland to sell Pulju for pennies on the dollar because he had no connection to him and did not need to cater to anything Pulju's camp wanted.
instead of trading Pulju for a 3rd+prospect or a 2nd to lessen the blow of AA trade he hung on to him and opened up a communication channel with his camp eventually getting him back in the fold.

 

[AddyTheWrath]

The 'Bad Moves' are only bad due to hindsight. At the time these deals were made they all looked good.
Bear at 2x2 is a good move not TBD. He could have easily held out for twice as much.
Kassian AAV is the worst Holland move thus far and even that is just 900K too much due to bad timing.
Getting AA without spending the 1st was good risk at deadline. Looks bad since he did work out.

Yea I actually agree - I actually used a kind of 'stricter' lens to evaluate Holland when I made that post. I would consider Bear's 2x2 contract good for sure, but COVID helped.

Hell I'd even classify the Turris move as mediocre rather than bad, since he was both a reasonable bet as a bounce-back candidate and is not that impactful on our cap (easily buriable).