Fire Ken Holland

[GOilers88]

Except the 3-6 doesn't matter if they play even close to this well the rest of the way. Just the same way that Montreal's 7-1-2 start won't matter if they keep playing like this.

Using one small bad stretch of a season to discount the entirety of the season is exactly what people are doing with regards to the 4 play in games.

It's just as silly as preaching that re-signing smith is a season ender, and now that he's playing very well to just ignore it and go yeah but he's still going to cost us at some point down the road so right now doesn't matter.

Does anyone really believe Smith will win a Vezina this year? I don't think so. But you don't get to keep writing off good things because bad things might happen.

 

[Aerchon]

To say you were right about Holland two weeks ago, when you were advocating to fire him is absolutely false. If anything the last two weeks have shown you to be wrong about Holland, and every win further solidifies it. But it's still too early to decisively say one way or the other. That's sort of the whole point of the ridicule this thread has received.

If this were a debate I would say check mate. If every win proves me wrong than every loss proved me right. Welcome to 2 weeks ago and the whole centralized issue being discussed. You can't rewrite history and invalidate legitimate reactions relevant to the time this thread was actually discussing firing Holland.

Which I will repeat no one currently is.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

The Oilers are 52 - 36 - 9 since Holland took over. That seems alright?

That's a 95.5 point pace over 82 games.

 

[redgrant]

So when does this team officially become Holland's responsibility then? Because fans sure are giving him credit for this year's success so far.

Holland has done extremely well by having next to no room to maneuver cap wise. Thats why fans like me are impressed. Chiarelli left him in a complete cap mess. He has done the following:

Positives
1. Preached development and not rushed Bouchard/Broberg/Holloway. What??? Youre not going to let an 18 year old dman play 24 minutes a night like would happen under the Tambellini/Chiarelli era?
2. Gotten rid of Lucic the worst contract in the league. Just be glad it isnt Loui Erikssen here.
3. Not signed Bear and Nurse to massive contracts that could destroy the cap space again.
4. Filled in the bottom 6 with some nice short low bet contracts.
5. Remained patient with JP when he wanted out and seems to be a fantastic decision.
6. Didnt do nothing stupid like sign Markstrom to an awful contract over the summer. Held his cool.

Negatives
1. Kassian Contract - the positive is there is no NMC clause in it. I feel optimistic if he could move Lucic who had a NMC and worse cap hit he can easily move Kassian.

Draw
1. AA for picks. How was he supposed to know about Covid?
2. Not getting a better backup than Smith (although hes currently making me eat my words for now).
3. Sekera buyout. Another Charielli mess he had to clean up but appears to be a good move now as we are bizarrely overloaded at defense. After this year its 1.5m hit.

I'll judge Holland after we get to 2022 when Koskinen, Russell and Neal are all more or less off the books. These were all Chiarellis mistakes. I would like to see what he signs Nuge to, Nurse extension, if hes able to make Seattle take one of our bad contracts and how he solves the goaltending issue. I'll judge him on those items.

 

[McOilers97]

Using one small bad stretch of a season to discount the entirety of the season is exactly what people are doing with regards to the 4 play in games.

Exactly, and it drives me insane.

As if Pittsburgh didn't also faceplant in the Montreal series, and St Louis didn't inexplicably lose to Vancouver. Some teams were just way out of sync when play resumed, and there was no time to work out the kinks. I don't even think about the bubble when I evaluate Holland and the players, it's just not a good sample to draw from. The only time I ever see reason to talk about it is to dispute its relevancy with certain stubborn few in these forums.

 

[GOilers88]

If this were a debate I would say check mate. If every win proves me wrong than every loss proved me right. Welcome to 2 weeks ago and the whole centralized issue being discussed. You can't rewrite history and invalidate legitimate reactions relevant to the time this thread was actually discussing firing Holland.

Which I will repeat no one currently is.

The fact that we're talking in a Fire the GM thread that was posted a week and a half into the season tells you this was never a legitimate reaction. Again you're taking two weeks of an entire season and using them to project the rest of the unplayed season.

How do you see that as legitimate? The fact that the team has come together as well as they have should tell you that there were massive overreactions to a very small portion of games played.

There's a reason why the overreactions in the first period of GDT's are just as silly as overreactions during the first week and a half of a season. If they only played one period each game, and the season was only 20 games long, then the reactions would be legitimate.

Clamouring for big changes and firings because you lose some games early on is stupid. If you don't think so then obviously there's no point in continuing.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Holland has done extremely well by having next to no room to maneuver cap wise. Thats why fans like me are impressed. Chiarelli left him in a complete cap mess. He has done the following:

Positives
1. Preached development and not rushed Bouchard/Broberg/Holloway. What??? Youre not going to let an 18 year old dman play 24 minutes a night like would happen under the Tambellini/Chiarelli era?
2. Gotten rid of Lucic the worst contract in the league. Just be glad it isnt Loui Erikssen here.
3. Not signed Bear and Nurse to massive contracts that could destroy the cap space again.
4. Filled in the bottom 6 with some nice short low bet contracts.
5. Remained patient with JP when he wanted out and seems to be a fantastic decision.
6. Didnt do nothing stupid like sign Markstrom to an awful contract over the summer. Held his cool.

Negatives
1. Kassian Contract - the positive is there is no NMC clause in it. I feel optimistic if he could move Lucic who had a NMC and worse cap hit he can easily move Kassian.

Draw
1. AA for picks. How was he supposed to know about Covid?
2. Not getting a better backup than Smith (although hes currently making me eat my words for now).
3. Sekera buyout. Another Charielli mess he had to clean up but appears to be a good move now as we are bizarrely overloaded at defense. After this year its 1.5m hit.

I'll judge Holland after we get to 2022 when Koskinen, Russell and Neal are all more or less off the books. These were all Chiarellis mistakes. Not his.

The Sekera buyout actually looks like a win after what he did with the cap space and bringing in alot more depth and with how Sekera has been since that.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

The fact that we're talking in a Fire the GM thread that was posted a week and a half into the season tells you this was never a legitimate reaction. Again you're taking two weeks of an entire season and using them to project the rest of the unplayed season.

How do you see that as legitimate? The fact that the team has come together as well as they have should tell you that there were massive overreactions to a very small portion of games played.

There's a reason why the overreactions in the first period of GDT's are just as silly as overreactions during the first week and a half of a season. If they only played one period each game, and the season was only 20 games long, then the reactions would be legitimate.

Clamouring for big changes and firings because you lose some games early on is stupid. If you don't think so then obviously there's no point in continuing.

But the play ins.

 

[McOilers97]

It's just as silly as preaching that re-signing smith is a season ender, and now that he's playing very well to just ignore it and go yeah but he's still going to cost us at some point down the road so right now doesn't matter.

Does anyone really believe Smith will win a Vezina this year? I don't think so. But you don't get to keep writing off good things because bad things might happen.

Exactly. We saw what Smith was last year - high peaks and low valleys, but a steadying team presence that everyone seems to rally around. Anyone that expects him to be 100% great or 100% bad when in goal is completely out to lunch. It's important to be fair when evaluating players, not just latching onto a positive or (especially in these forums) negative narrative.

 

[Aerchon]

No body should have been saying it in the first place anyways.

And then you have anti-holland protestors in here trying to downplay how the 71 games before that went.

Not true. Generally praise has been given but saying 71 is a bit disingenuous as well because after Holland brought in his deadline acquisitions the team struggled a bit down the stretch. Not to mention a brutal December...

There are both questionable moves and good ones as well.

It's the pro Holland group that is trying to down play the dire straights the team was in a few short weeks ago. Denial. Lots and lots of detail.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Not true. Generally praise has been given but saying 71 is a bit disingenuous as well because after Holland brought in his deadline acquisitions the team struggled a bit down the stretch. Not to mention a brutal December...

There are both questionable moves and good ones as well.

It's the pro Holland group that is trying to down play the dire straights the team was in a few short weeks ago. Denial. Lots and lots of detail.

Again, focusing on a smaller sample size because its negative rather than the whole thing.

 

[GOilers88]

Not true. Generally praise has been given but saying 71 is a bit disingenuous as well because after Holland brought in his deadline acquisitions the team struggled a bit down the stretch. Not to mention a brutal December...

There are both questionable moves and good ones as well.

It's the pro Holland group that is trying to down play the dire straights the team was in a few short weeks ago. Denial. Lots and lots of detail.

The difference is I don't think they were in dire straights when they were 3-6. I can't even fathom that logic.

The Canucks and Flames? That's dire f***ing straights man.

Also you probably won't believe me here, but I'm not even "Pro Holland". I'm just voicing my opinions on how I view the teams progress over the last season and a bit given where they were under Chiarelli. Ken just happens to be the one at the helm right now. While I've always thought he is a very well respected and knowledgeable hockey mind, I was also leary based on how Detroit had gone in his last handful of years. But my opinion is simply that he's helped put us on the up and up after the worst GM we ever had, and I don't think it should be on him that McDavid is in year 6 just hoping to reach the playoffs because as was said earlier, he had no part in burning away the first four years.

Edit: All that aside I enjoy debating hockey and regardless of your stance I'm always down for a deep dive, so I hope you don't think I'm trying to pile on ya.

 

[Barrsy]

So when does this team officially become Holland's responsibility then? Because fans sure are giving him credit for this year's success so far.

I think you need to utilize common sense.

 

[Barrsy]

If this were a debate I would say check mate. If every win proves me wrong than every loss proved me right. Welcome to 2 weeks ago and the whole centralized issue being discussed. You can't rewrite history and invalidate legitimate reactions relevant to the time this thread was actually discussing firing Holland.

Which I will repeat no one currently is.

Man, this is really lost on you, isnt it.

 

[McOilers97]

If this were a debate I would say check mate. If every win proves me wrong than every loss proved me right. Welcome to 2 weeks ago and the whole centralized issue being discussed. You can't rewrite history and invalidate legitimate reactions relevant to the time this thread was actually discussing firing Holland.

Which I will repeat no one currently is.

Nobody is proved "right" or "wrong" in the matter of firing a GM on a game-by-game basis. GMs don't get fired based on a 2 week stretch that you aren't happy with, or a month long slump, they get evaluated based on a body of work that is YEARS (plural) long. In no way is it "rational" to want to fire Holland based on small sample sizes that ignore larger sample sizes. If you hire someone to lead an organization, it takes some time for them to put their stamp on things and make all the changes that they are interested in making. Plus, evaluations of players are ongoing, and the growth of prospects factors into what to do with current personnel. If Ken Holland had infinite cap space to work with and could make all the moves he's interested in making at this very moment, he'd do it. Until then I'm sure he still has 3-4 more pieces that he wants to add to this team over the next 6-12 months and he needs to be given enough rope to do so - whether to ultimately succeed at making us a contender, or to ultimately fail and be replaced in the long run.

 

[Aerchon]

The difference is I don't think they were in dire straights when they were 3-6. I can't even fathom that logic.

The Canucks and Flames? That's dire f***ing straights man.

Also you probably won't believe me here, but I'm not even "Pro Holland". I'm just voicing my opinions on how I view the teams progress over the last season and a bit given where they were under Chiarelli. Ken just happens to be the one at the helm right now

It's a hockey board to each their own.

I really think people are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

I wouldn't even be bothering except this is the Fire Ken Holland thread. There is a Go go Kenny Holland thread still on the front page and I dislike it when people try to shame people for reacting in a absolutely and completely rational way after watching their team play so poorly.

 

[Gregsky99]

Exactly. We saw what Smith was last year - high peaks and low valleys, but a steadying team presence that everyone seems to rally around. Anyone that expects him to be 100% great or 100% bad when in goal is completely out to lunch. It's important to be fair when evaluating players, not just latching onto a positive or (especially in these forums) negative narrative.

If you can platoon smith when his game gets bad, then smith is extremely effective. When he gets bad, sit him for 3-4 games. Let kosky go and let smith back in later when the recovery has happened. That’s one thing Tippett did very well last year.

 

[McOilers97]

If you can platoon smith when his game gets bad, then smith is extremely effective. When he gets bad, sit him for 3-4 games. Let kosky go and let smith back in later when the recovery has happened. That’s one thing Tippett did very well last year.

Exactly. And Smith is a mentally tough SOB. Inconsistent play the last few years, probably in his final stretch in the league now as an older guy, injured in the off-season, and yet I don't feel like he carries any of that baggage with him from game to game. He just battles and plays his ass off. Sometimes he'll fail, but I'm never concerned that it will get into his head for longer than it takes to get ready for his next start.

 

[MuzzaFuzza]

He’s Schrodinger’s GM I guess: Both responsible for the success of the team during their current hot stretch, while simultaneously not responsible for the various poor decisions he’s made regarding draft picks and contracts since being hired.

Like GreatKeith said I can enjoy the wins while still recognizing there are major issues with the roster that will become apparent when Smith inevitably turns back into a pumpkin. Also, yes, we need to make the playoffs. That’s a non-negotiable for me and should be for anyone.

Yep which is why you’ve been radio silent during this past win streak around here. Only popping into GDTs to make snide remarks about Draisaitl, Stauffer etc.

This thread has moved past embarrassing at this point.

 

[GOilers88]

It's a hockey board to each their own.

I really think people are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

I wouldn't even be bothering except this is the Fire Ken Holland thread. There is a Go go Kenny Holland thread still on the front page and I dislike it when people try to shame people for reacting in a absolutely and completely rational way after watching their team play so poorly.

I'm not trying to argue, though it probably comes across that way. I edited the post you quoted but likely after you read it. I'm not trying to pile on. I enjoy getting into heated discussions about basically anything, I just think it was too soon to be making a thread like this. If it started as a "Critique Holland" thread then sure, but the whole premise to me seems way too overreactive and premature considering how many games were left, and still are left to play.

Much like the GDT where Edmonton stormed back against the Canucks despite some folks packing it in after the first.

 

[Aerchon]

Nobody is proved "right" or "wrong" in the matter of firing a GM on a game-by-game basis. GMs don't get fired based on a 2 week stretch that you aren't happy with, or a month long slump, they get evaluated based on a body of work that is YEARS (plural) long. If you hire someone to lead an organization, it takes some time for them to put their stamp on things and make all the changes that they are interested in making. Plus, evaluations of players are ongoing, and the growth of prospects factors into what to do with current personnel. If Ken Holland had infinite cap space to work with and could make all the moves he's interested in making at this very moment, he'd do it. Until then I'm sure he still has 3-4 more pieces that he wants to add to this team over the next 6-12 months and he needs to be given enough rope to do so - whether to ultimately succeed at making us a contender, or to ultimately fail and be replaced in the long run.

It's officially getting irrelevant/repetitive.

Ken Holland's body of work prior to coming to Edmonton. His previous 5 years plus. The terrible team stevie Y inherited is 10 times worse than the team he inherited from Chiarelli.

There is a significant amount of concern about Ken Hollands abilities to GM prior to coming, how he was hired, and the moves he has made in 1.25 years to date.

Currently we are riding a high. Weeks ago not so much.

My point. If I even have one anymore. Is it was fair, at the time this thread was created, to want Ken Holland fired. There is more than enough to warrant such consideration and obviously if the bad play continued no one would be arguing that.

But thankfully that isn't the case but instead of just waiting to see what happens next the hindsight Ken Holland fanboy/thought police came here to try rewrite history and shame those for doubting their glorious leader.

Now. I enjoyed the vast majority of this banter but I think it's safe to say it's dead. I applaud those who have such faith in Ken Holland and pray that they are right even if a few weeks ago they were not.

 

[DropTheGloves]

Yep which is why you’ve been radio silent during this past win streak around here. Only popping into GDTs to make snide remarks about Draisaitl, Stauffer etc.

This thread has moved past embarrassing at this point.

I think what’s most embarrassing is that you are tracking my posting activity. Ever consider charging rent for the space I clearly occupy in your head?

 

[TB12]

Yep which is why you’ve been radio silent during this past win streak around here. Only popping into GDTs to make snide remarks about Draisaitl, Stauffer etc.

This thread has moved past embarrassing at this point.

Yup. Some truly terribly posts.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I think what’s most embarrassing is that you are tracking my posting activity. Ever consider charging rent for the space I clearly occupy in your head?

I dont think you should be giving anyone shit about being embarrassing.

After all, you spent like 200 posts making up how people were comparing Toronto and Ottawa as equals when you cant even read a 50 word paragraph properly.

 

[MuzzaFuzza]

I think what’s most embarrassing is that you are tracking my posting activity. Ever consider charging rent for the space I clearly occupy in your head?

Meh, pretty easy to notice when the hermits crawl back in their hole.