Fire Ken Holland

[Tobias Kahun]

In those 13 games 4 of them represented basically the majority of a regular season. Invalidating what was a very good shortened regular season. The 3 and 6 start represented 16% of a season and what is typically an almost insurmountable deficit to overcome.

To each their own but you guys are making me laugh pretty hard. I think this thread is taking a scenic boat ride on the river deNile.

So a certain 13 game sample size is much more important because it’s negative than the 71 games before that or the 13 games after that?

 

[Tobias Kahun]

People are still sleeping on the Hawks this season. Hawks were poised to be the team that upsets in the play ins, I imagine they would have upset most other matchups.

Oilers also dominated the hawks in every metric in the playoffs, the hawks just got favourable bounces.

 

[OfCorsiDid]

I've said in this very thread that I wouldn't fire him right now, but if they're 50% into next season and not within striking position of a playoff spot that he should be evaluated.

It's interesting that the bar around here is so low that winning a playoff series is considered too much.

It doesn't matter how well you do in the regular season if you fail in the playoffs. The Oilers should absolutely not be satisfied with simply making the playoffs 6 years into McDavid's career.

That is not Ken Holland’s responsibility or fault.

This team has floundered for 4 of McDavid’s 6 years because of bad management done by a terrible GM.

Trying to justify making an evaluation of performance based on a season and a half (an unprecedented one at that) is the the epitome of ridiculousness.

 

[Barrsy]

I've said in this very thread that I wouldn't fire him right now, but if they're 50% into next season and not within striking position of a playoff spot that he should be evaluated.

It's interesting that the bar around here is so low that winning a playoff series is considered too much.

It doesn't matter how well you do in the regular season if you fail in the playoffs. The Oilers should absolutely not be satisfied with simply making the playoffs 6 years into McDavid's career.

This is just so obtuse on this topic its unbelievable.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

That is not Ken Holland’s responsibility or fault.

This team has floundered for 4 of McDavid’s 6 years because of bad management done by a terrible GM.

Trying to justify making an evaluation of performance based on a season and a half (an unprecedented one at that) is the the epitome of ridiculousness.

This year he should absolutely bear some responsibility if the team does well or poorly. I'm not saying fire the guy regardless of the season's result but to absolve him of any blame is reckless, because you know damn well people have already started singing his praises. You can't disallow people to be critical then praise him in the same breath.

We have two of the best players on the planet that most teams would kill for. There's zero excuse for this team to not win at least one playoff round. I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

This is just so obtuse on this topic its unbelievable.

How is it obtuse? The team is playing very well, that's great. I hope they keep it up.

Tell me why I shouldn't have some expectations for this team?

 

[GOilers88]

Lol.

Thanks for the laughs on this Friday guys. Nice way to finish the week. I really hope you don't actually believe what you are saying but I respect your freedom to post it.

Just as quick hypothetical. If we make the playoffs this year and get swept 4-0 will it be OK to be pissed and want Holland fired? Or would that also fall into the stupidest things ever on this board? Still not enough sample size? Where is this line of not only rational criticism but that will lol keep me from having such outlandish expectations?

Too funny.

@McOilers97 That is 110% hindsight. The point of rationalization was at the point of 13 extremely important games of extreme failure. Anyone can jump on a bandwagon after an awesome 11 and 2 stint and say we are awesome and we should have been patient... That is pure BS unless you have a very selective/short term memory. Or are pushing a very very obviously bias pro Holland agenda. You can't rewrite the past to suit your own perspective.

You want rationality but you want to ignore the majority of Ken Holland's body of work thus far in favor of 13 games spanning two different seasons and a hypothetical that may or may not happen a few months from now.

I'm so confused by your stance here.

 

[CupofOil]

This is just so obtuse on this topic its unbelievable.

I don't see anything wrong with what he's saying. They made the playoffs last season and it's McDavid's 6th season, the bar should be set higher than just making the playoffs especially in a very winnable division. I don't see eye to eye with Keith on a lot of things but his take is reasonable.

Aerchon on the other hand? Yikes... Now THOSE posts are unbelievable.

 

[Barrsy]

I don't see anything wrong with what he's saying. They made the playoffs last season and it's McDavid's 6th season, the bar should be set higher than just making the playoffs especially in a very winnable division. I don't see eye to eye with Keith on a lot of things but his take is reasonable.

Aerchon on the other hand? Yikes... Now THOSE posts are unbelievable.

We are talking not about the last 6 years. Basically 5 of those Holland had nothing to do with. We are talking about Holland
My lord, this isnt rocket science.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

We are talking not about the last 6 years. Basically 5 of those Holland had nothing to do with. We are talking about Holland
My lord, this isnt rocket science.

So when does this team officially become Holland's responsibility then? Because fans sure are giving him credit for this year's success so far.

 

[CupofOil]

We are talking not about the last 6 years. Basically 5 of those Holland had nothing to do with. We are talking about Holland
My lord, this isnt rocket science.

Yeah no shit. We're talking about the bar being set higher than just making the playoffs THIS season which is a perfectly reasonable expectation.
There's absolutely nothing he said in his post that was unreasonable.

 

[Aerchon]

So a certain 13 game sample size is much more important because it’s negative than the 71 games before that or the 13 games after that?

You want rationality but you want to ignore the majority of Ken Holland's body of work thus far in favor of 13 games spanning two different seasons in favor of a hypothetical that may or may not happen a few months from now.

I'm so confused by your stance here.

I don't see anything wrong with what he's saying. They made the playoffs last season and it's McDavid's 6th season, the bar should be set higher than just making the playoffs especially in a very winnable division. I don't see eye to eye with Keith on a lot of things but his take is reasonable.

Aerchon on the other hand? Yikes... Now THOSE posts are unbelievable.

@Tobias Kahun

Yes. Absolutely yes. In the whole history of the nhl of course obviously yes. This is what makes the pro Holland group look like they are just ignoring the facts and being emo fanboys jumping in to save their hero.

Playoff hockey matters more. Not looking like a joke to start a season matters a lot. Oilers had the exact same obstacles to start the season as every other team. I'm happy the beat the odds but in a shortended season a 3 and 6 start matter more. It's called math.

 

[McOilers97]

So when does this team officially become Holland's responsibility then? Because fans sure are giving him credit for this year's success so far.

It's his responsibility now, BUT given the starting position that he inherited in terms of few good assets outside of the top few players on the team, and lack of cap space, I don't see how it's unreasonable to give him these first 2 seasons with less pressure results-wise. He's done far better than I thought was possible compared to July 2019 when we were still stuck with Lucic, had Chiasson in the top 6, Klefbom struggling for the 2nd straight year, Garrison/Manning as 6th/7th d-men options, Sekera barely usable after significant injury, and few prospects that looked like future contributors. Not saying to have zero expectations of him, but given where this team was in summer 2019, I never thought we'd be where we are now in just a year and a half.

 

[GOilers88]

So when does this team officially become Holland's responsibility then? Because fans sure are giving him credit for this year's success so far.

In the first season, Holland had a team that was sub .500 and missed the post season in it's previous two seasons. It was devoid of NHL depth, and most of the best assets were sold off for essentially nothing by Chiarelli while also leaving the team in cap hell.

He bargain bin shopped and overhauled a big chunk of the roster, and even though all the moves didn't pan out, were it not for unique circumstances surrounding the covid cup, had the team poised for a playoff berth in his first year. If you want to pin the 4 play in games on Holland feel free. I'm done going down that road. Given this, I feel like his first season has to be viewed as a success. I acknowledge he had some questionable extensions, but they were short term, and relatively cheap and coincided with Chiarelli cap coming off the books. Currently two of those three have been solid contributors on this run they're on leaving only Kass as an eyebrow raiser.

This year was sort of the same. Limited cap,bargain bin shopping. It took a couple of weeks for guys to find a groove, likely because of all the new faces and no real camp or preseason, but now they seem to have found it, with a handful of his signings playing meaningful parts in the whole thing. While there's still lots of runway, given the bottom 3 teams in our division it seems likely they make it barring a meltdown of absolutely epic proportions. But taking marks away because something bad COULD happen seems a tad silly to me, no?

That means in his two seasons on the clock, the actual work we can reasonably grade him on, I see a team that went from below .500 for two years, having no depth, and missing the playoffs to a team that has gone on to (likely)two consecutive playoff berths while stocking up actual NHL depth and dancing around what little cap room there is.

I don't rightly know how anyone can be down on what he's done so far just because Chiarelli burned away the first 4 years of McDavid.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

@Tobias Kahun

Yes. Absolutely yes. In the whole history of the nhl of course obviously yes. This is what makes the pro Holland group look like they are just ignoring the facts and being emo fanboys jumping in to save their hero.

This is a weird stance from you, considering it looks like you've been on the anti-holland group while only looking for faults and ignoring everything good he's done.

And calling people fanboys because they disagree with you is embarrassing, but not unexpected.

We've seen your takes on multiple topics like Broberg where you've shown to be making stuff up and lying, like saying you watched his whole first world juniors when you posted about finally getting to see Broberg during his fourth game of that tournament, questioning his skating ability and such.

You also have a tendency to put people on ignore who disagree with you.

 

[Aerchon]

This is a weird stance from you, considering it looks like you've been on the anti-holland group while only looking for faults and ignoring everything good he's done.

And calling people fanboys because they disagree with you is embarrassing, but not unexpected.

We've seen your takes on multiple topics like Broberg where you've shown to be making stuff up and lying, like saying you watched his whole first world juniors when you posted about finally getting to see Broberg during his fourth game of that tournament, questioning his skating ability and such.

You also have a tendency to put people on ignore who disagree with you.

Lol. It wouldn't surprise me if the current conversation has more to do with Broberg that the simple facts being currently discussed ;-)

Also there are things Holland has done well and I support. Not that I think anyone will hear it this time either but I'm looking forward to being wrong about Holland. Two weeks ago I was as right as could be today wrong but none of that matters. Only the playoffs matter and Holland has yet to have success there.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Lol. It wouldn't surprise me if the current conversation has more to do with Broberg that the simple facts being currently discussed ;-)

Just dont understand why you find it necessary to label anyone who defends anything Holland does as fanboys.

You just brush aside all the good stuff he's done and only focus on the handful of questionable decisions, and then anyone who brings it up is just an emo fanboy.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Lol. It wouldn't surprise me if the current conversation has more to do with Broberg that the simple facts being currently discussed ;-)

Also there are things Holland has done well and I support. Not that I think anyone will hear it this time either but I'm looking forward to being wrong about Holland. Two weeks ago I was as right as could be today wrong but none of that matters. Only the playoffs matter and Holland has yet to have success there.

This seems to be your stance on everything.

This way you're happy either way, the team sucks and you're right, or the team is good and the team is good.

 

[DropTheGloves]

So when does this team officially become Holland's responsibility then? Because fans sure are giving him credit for this year's success so far.

He’s Schrodinger’s GM I guess: Both responsible for the success of the team during their current hot stretch, while simultaneously not responsible for the various poor decisions he’s made regarding draft picks and contracts since being hired.

Like GreatKeith said I can enjoy the wins while still recognizing there are major issues with the roster that will become apparent when Smith inevitably turns back into a pumpkin. Also, yes, we need to make the playoffs. That’s a non-negotiable for me and should be for anyone.

 

[Aerchon]

Just dont understand why you find it necessary to label anyone who defends anything Holland does as fanboys.

You just brush aside all the good stuff he's done and only focus on the handful of questionable decisions, and then anyone who brings it up is just an emo fanboy.

You missed how this all began.

No one is saying Holland should be fired anymore. No one.

But some fanboys are coming in with their hindsight and trying to downplay how disastrous the play ins and start of the season were.

 

[GOilers88]

Lol. It wouldn't surprise me if the current conversation has more to do with Broberg that the simple facts being currently discussed ;-)

Also there are things Holland has done well and I support. Not that I think anyone will hear it this time either but I'm looking forward to being wrong about Holland. Two weeks ago I was as right as could be today wrong but none of that matters. Only the playoffs matter and Holland has yet to have success there.

To say you were right about Holland two weeks ago, when you were advocating to fire him is absolutely false. If anything the last two weeks have shown you to be wrong about Holland, and every win further solidifies it. But it's still too early to decisively say one way or the other. That's sort of the whole point of the ridicule this thread has received.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

He’s Schrodinger’s GM I guess: Both responsible for the success of the team during their current hot stretch, while simultaneously not responsible for the various poor decisions he’s made regarding draft picks and contracts since being hired.

Like GreatKeith said I can enjoy the wins while still recognizing there are major issues with the roster that will become apparent when Smith inevitably turns back into a pumpkin. Also, yes, we need to make the playoffs. That’s a non-negotiable for me and should be for anyone.

Yeah, its unfortunate he didn't forecast that the NHL was going to be shut down when he traded those draft picks.

What an idiot.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

You missed how this all began.

No one is saying Holland should be fired anymore. No one.

But some fanboys are coming in with their hindsight and trying to downplay how disastrous the play ins and start of the season were.

ThE pLay iNs.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

You missed how this all began.

No one is saying Holland should be fired anymore. No one.

But some fanboys are coming in with their hindsight and trying to downplay how disastrous the play ins and start of the season were.

No body should have been saying it in the first place anyways.

And then you have anti-holland protestors in here trying to downplay how the 71 games before that went.

 

[McOilers97]

@Tobias Kahun

Yes. Absolutely yes. In the whole history of the nhl of course obviously yes. This is what makes the pro Holland group look like they are just ignoring the facts and being emo fanboys jumping in to save their hero.

Playoff hockey matters more. Not looking like a joke to start a season matters a lot. Oilers had the exact same obstacles to start the season as every other team. I'm happy the beat the odds but in a shortended season a 3 and 6 start matter more. It's called math.

Except the 3-6 doesn't matter if they play even close to this well the rest of the way. Just the same way that Montreal's 7-1-2 start won't matter if they keep playing this bad. There's a reason that the good analysts and minds in the hockey world say that the first 10 games are a poor sample to draw conclusions from.