Fire Hakstol

[BrindamoursNose]

I did not think the Flyers had a snowball's chance in hell to get to the 2nd rd of the 2018 playoffs. However, self-inflicted wounds are always damning and will be highly scrutinized, regardless of situation.

Also, Hextall has repeatedly said there's enough talent on the team to compete, so the lack of depth is an issue between the coach and the GM. Although the GM has said he was happy with his coach. That experimenting is what should be done in the middle of the season, when the impact isn't as dire as "win or go home." Wrong time to tinker.

Come on man. What's he supposed to say? "Yeah, the team kinda sucks"

I can't think of a GM not-named Sam Hinkie that's ever said his team couldn't compete. That's not a fair thing to judge on.

 

[FlyersMania2]

Yet another article where I translate what Hextall is saying into a bit of an ego and very long leash: For Flyers, It's Not a Popularity Contest - and It Shouldn't Be

"We're not going to change what we set out to do four years ago," Hextall said. "We put a plan in place. To go sideways now would be the wrong thing to do.
"It sort of took two years to get the wheels in motion and we're on plan. Are we happy where we're at right now? Hell no."

So - he's preemptively excusing 2 years of his work - what did we set out to do 4 years ago? Take roster spots from kids for Brandon Manning? Put Lehtera in a permanent roster spot? What?

 

[Ruck Over]

If they had a real goalie, you could live with AMac/Manning, I saw a half dozen softies go by in that series.
If Kane - Stastny - Simmonds is your 3rd line, you have options as a coach, keep TK on the first line, have him replace Lindblom on the 2nd line when he struggles, etc.
...

If your aunt had a penis, she'd be your uncle. I'm not aware of folks that wanted to pay the high price for those specific rentals, or the caliber player in general that was available in the older/uncontrolled/expensive categories. Those folks surely exist, and they would've been wrong. But there was definitely room to improve, and the status quo was kept instead.

 

[Ruck Over]

Come on man. What's he supposed to say? "Yeah, the team kinda sucks"

I can't think of a GM not-named Sam Hinkie that's ever said his team couldn't compete. That's not a fair thing to judge on.

He could not say anything. And we've been over this, Hinkie (hallow-be-his-name) need not be referenced. The Rags, Canucks, and even Blues had GMs this past season lay some truth on the fanbase instead of blowing smoke and empty platitudes.

The Second Edition of the 20-volume Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use, and 47,156 obsolete words. To this may be added around 9,500 derivative words included as subentries. - Oxford Dictionaries

Hextall has options to craft the exact message we wants given to the fan base. Hextall means something, or does not mean something based on who hears it, and in what context; or, when Hextall speaks we take him at his word. Option 2

 

[BrindamoursNose]

He could not say anything. And we've been over this, Hinkie (hallow-be-his-name) need not be referenced. The Rags, Canucks, and even Blues had GMs this past season lay some truth on the fanbase instead of blowing smoke and empty platitudes.


Hextall has options to craft the exact message we wants given to the fan base. Hextall means something, or does not mean something based on who hears it, and in what context; or, when Hextall speaks we take him at his word. Option 2

Can you cite the GMs here for me? Actually, who cares. It doesn't even matter.

If you want to draw this out into jerk territory by pulling out the Oxford Dictionary (remember, I tried to end this conversation ages ago): Hextall was right. We made the playoffs. We were competitive. You may not agree with that definition, but we were good enough to make the playoffs which is a major step of being a contender. We were competitive, but definitely not a legitimate contender.

 

[Ruck Over]

...what did we set out to do 4 years ago? Take roster spots from kids for Brandon Manning? Put Lehtera in a permanent roster spot? What?

If Brandon Manning is a disposable placeholder (he is), then it's incumbent upon the GM to find a NHL level player, so when those kids are ready (subjectively) to play, there's actual competition for them to supersede rather than Manning. It should not take 4 years to address acquiring a player greater than Brandon Manning to force him into a 7th/AHL position.

Lehtera and Filppula were both unwanted players/contracts. That they got this much run in Philly is embarassing. Filppula grantingly played well the end of the previous season before turning into utter poop for the majority of this season.

 

[hatcher]

Can you cite the GMs here for me? Actually, who cares. It doesn't even matter.

If you want to draw this out into jerk territory by pulling out the Oxford Dictionary (remember, I tried to end this conversation ages ago): Hextall was right. We made the playoffs. We were competitive. You may not agree with that definition, but we were good enough to make the playoffs which is a major step of being a contender. We were competitive, but definitely not a legitimate contender.

Lots of players are gonna change on the team I think. Raffl,Weal,Lethera, and the ones already gone is a great start towards moving forward. I think a big trade is coming again at the draft also but that's just my opinion.

 

[Ruck Over]

Can you cite the GMs here for me? Actually, who cares. It doesn't even matter.

If you want to draw this out into jerk territory by pulling out the Oxford Dictionary (remember, I tried to end this conversation ages ago): Hextall was right. We made the playoffs. We were competitive. You may not agree with that definition, but we were good enough to make the playoffs which is a major step of being a contender. We were competitive, but definitely not a legitimate contender.

Do you really not know who are the GMs the Rags*, Canucks**, or Blues? LMGTFY
A Message from Glen Sather and Jeff Gorton About Our Team
Canucks President sends letter to fans touting 'brigher than ever' future
Blues GM Doug Armstrong: "As A Group It's Collectively Just Not Good Enough"

I take your whole stance as jerk territory, especially because you are being so contradictory in a thread titled "Fire Hakstol". If ever there was a place to rant and gnash teeth freely about the strong dislike for the Flyers coach, it'd be in a thread titled, "Fire Hakstol". Instead, folks like you are beating some drum about the coach not being that bad. Start your own thread and keep it on topic.

*Combo President and GM
**President

 

[deadhead]

So - he's preemptively excusing 2 years of his work - what did we set out to do 4 years ago? Take roster spots from kids for Brandon Manning? Put Lehtera in a permanent roster spot? What?

He spent the first two years moving out numerous veterans and obtaining draft picks.
2014-15: traded Hartnell, McGinn, Kimmo, Coburn,
2015-16: traded Grossman, Rinaldo, L Schenn, Vinnie
2016-17: traded Streit
2017-18: traded Cousins, B Schenn, Marody

His first draft took a while, Sanheim and Lindblom have just arrived, NAK next year
His 2015 draft paid off in 2016-17 with Provorov and TK joining Ghost and Laughton and Couts

At that point, he was putting together the core of his rebuilt team, he had cleared out about half the team, obtained a boatload of draft picks and his kids were starting to arrive.

So to Ron, 2016-17 is when the rebuild started having an impact.

 

[Garbage Goal]

You can call "bull" all you want, but I disagree. I think him moving our hottest scorer in TK to the 3rd line was to create balance in the lineup and hopefully give TK a chance to shine. Unfortunately, it wasn't working and he was no longer our hottest scorer.

God forbid he try to not make our lineup top-heavy and create depth. What a horrible approach to coaching.

You didn’t comprehend what I wrote at all, like even minimally. I never disagreed that his rationale may have been to spread out scoring.

It is pretty awful coaching to play one of your three best wingers 9 to 14 minutes a game with awful line mates for an entire playoff series. Correct.

 

[Ruck Over]

He spent the first two years moving out numerous veterans and obtaining draft picks.
2014-15: traded Hartnell, McGinn, Kimmo, Coburn,
2015-16: traded Grossman, Rinaldo, L Schenn, Vinnie
2016-17: traded Streit
2017-18: traded Cousins, B Schenn, Marody

His first draft took a while, Sanheim and Lindblom have just arrived, NAK next year
His 2015 draft paid off in 2016-17 with Provorov and TK joining Ghost and Laughton and Couts

At that point, he was putting together the core of his rebuilt team, he had cleared out about half the team, obtained a boatload of draft picks and his kids were starting to arrive.

So to Ron, 2016-17 is when the rebuild started having an impact.

Good trades- Hartnell, McGinn, Rinaldo, Kimmo, Coburn, Vinnie & L Schenn, B Schenn
None of these trades however can be said to improve the team from the time made to today except the Coburn trade, as it resulted in Gudas (I'm positive but can accept negligible) and TK (plus).

Ghost, Laughton, and Coots were Holmgren guys, might as well replace with Voracek, Simmonds, & G (a Clarke guy). Specifically with Laughton, had he been intended to be part of the next core, it'd be reasonable to think he'd been featured more in some aspect during this past season, instead of getting buried behind Filp and Lehtera.

Grossmann & Pronger was another non-issue, because Sam Gagner was a flop here (and even debated if he wouldn't have been waived right away when acquired). While helluva impressive, and positive Hextall moved on from Grossmann who only played one more credible season in the NHL after trading, the space opened up by his departure didn't go to an improvement, and the money acrobats saved by moving Pronger were not realistically reinvested in the team, not yet at least.

Trading Streit is a near non-issue. He was gone as a UFA regardless, Filp was not the boon this team needed (too little in the acquired year, too late this past season).

Cousins and Marody trades were in effect, get something for nothing. Hakstol had not shown a penchant for trusting, nor wanting, Cousins in the line-up, he traded a marginal player for an ED-proof pick.
Marody was flipping a previous draft pick, for a future draft pick, the Flyers never got to see him play for one of their organizations, and he has already hit the ground running for his new team. But of course, the resulting draft pick outcomes are wait and see. Maybe Marody would have never signed here, empty speculation.

Just so...

That's a lot of incoherent rambling, the Flyers... oh the Flyers. /Takesamoment, /breath, . Hextall removed driftwood and albatros contracts. During his time, non-kid, he added- Dale Weise, Boyd Gordon, Sam Gagner, RJ Umberger, Jori Lehtera, Val Filppula, Brandon Manning, Jordan Weal, Johnny Oduya. That is slop.

Edit: also Radko Gudas and two forgettable Russians (Medvedev and Lubymov) plus a few others i'm likely forgetting

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Do you really not know who are the GMs the Rags*, Canucks**, or Blues? LMGTFY
A Message from Glen Sather and Jeff Gorton About Our Team
Canucks President sends letter to fans touting 'brigher than ever' future
Blues GM Doug Armstrong: "As A Group It's Collectively Just Not Good Enough"

I take your whole stance as jerk territory, especially because you are being so contradictory in a thread titled "Fire Hakstol". If ever there was a place to rant and gnash teeth freely about the strong dislike for the Flyers coach, it'd be in a thread titled, "Fire Hakstol". Instead, folks like you are beating some drum about the coach not being that bad. Start your own thread and keep it on topic.

*Combo President and GM
**President

This is why you're clearly being a jerk: You took me asking you to cite the GM statements you claimed happened for me asking "Who are those team's GMs" -- you knew what I was asking. You're smarter than just being confused. You were doing it to try and degrade me for some reason.

First 2 articles don't say anything about their teams being non-competitive currently. They just talk about an exciting future while avoiding the present. I just listened to the long interview to understand what he actually said instead of just reading the headline (Armstrong): He said it wasn't good enough because the Blues were in the middle of a 7 game losing streak. How the hell else is he supposed to respond? Even Hextall has acknowledged periods like this of the organization and team being terrible during a terrible period of loss (even though folks say he never does).

Ron Hextall on Flyers' losing streak: 'This falls on all of us'

You can rant about Hakstol being fired, but you're being a jerk in discussing it with me/us just for the sake of being a jerk. That isn't necessary. Stop trying to be the smartest guy in the room and maybe these discussions will go better.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

You didn’t comprehend what I wrote at all, like even minimally. I never disagreed that his rationale may have been to spread out scoring.

It is pretty awful coaching to play one of your three best wingers 9 to 14 minutes a game with awful line mates for an entire playoff series. Correct.

Whatever you say bud. Not worth the argument.

 

[Ruck Over]

You can rant about Hakstol being fired, but you're being a jerk in discussing it with me/us just for the sake of being a jerk. That isn't necessary. Stop trying to be the smartest guy in the room and maybe these discussions will go better.

How is the discussion about Hakstol being fired expected to go better if folks are steadfast about not wanting him to get fired? Is there bleed to Hextall? Yep, there is, that should go in the Fire Hextall thread truthfully.

About the articles not saying anything about being non-competitive- what's that read between the lines nonsense so often used as an excuse for GM/coach-speak? Why would a team talk about being good later, if they were good now? Anyhow, "Can you cite the GMs for me?" is not the same as, "What exactly did those GMs say?"

I find the way you communicate provocative, for the sake of conflict. How folks against the thought Hakstol should be fired would positively add to discussion is speculative. In reading your post, they too often appear apologetic without giving any reason for merit or positivity rather than wait & see. To which I often reply, I'm fine with wait and see, if that's what the braintrust (Hextall) messages is his intention. However, Hextall is quoted saying that he believes the team is good/can compete now, which brings frustration.

All of that is separate from the meaning of this thread, which is Hakstol is a bad coach. The TK line break-up, the usage of all non-Provorov/Gudas defensemen, the wretched PP2, the wretched PK, the riding of goalies into the ground before an injury, the non-use of the AHL call-up resulting in the #2 goalie injury, the playing of Weise/Lehtera/Goulborne over anybody else, the inadequate usage of Filp v. Laughton. Those are just the offenses of Hakstol from the top of my head which really make up the majority of what this thread should be about. HAKSHELL, how could I forget the Hakshell? But as the ramblings of excuses were given by the most ardent of Hakstol defenders, those faults began to be laid at the feet of Hextall. Because, Hextall, as the GM, could rectify some, or all, of these issues that continually proved the Flyers not to be legitimate threats for the Cup, and often made them non-competitive in games.

The hyperbole, sarcasm, does fly freely. It is my intent to often respond in kind. The last sentence of your post is a jerk comment. Like for like, where it started I do not question.

 

[VladDrag]

If your aunt had a penis, she'd be your uncle. I'm not aware of folks that wanted to pay the high price for those specific rentals, or the caliber player in general that was available in the older/uncontrolled/expensive categories. Those folks surely exist, and they would've been wrong. But there was definitely room to improve, and the status quo was kept instead.

Did you just assume my aunt's gender?

 

[Ruck Over]

A Message from Glen Sather and Jeff Gorton About Our Team
Canucks President sends letter to fans touting 'brigher than ever' future
Blues GM Doug Armstrong: "As A Group It's Collectively Just Not Good Enough"

Rangers letter excerpts - "As we approach the trade deadline later this month and into the summer, we will be focused on adding young, competitive players that combine speed, skill and character. This may mean we lose some familiar faces, guys we all care about and respect. While this is part of the game, it's never easy."
"...We do not take your support for granted. We appreciate that you have always stood by us, and we ask you to remain by our side as we undertake this exciting new chapter filled with promise and change. We will keep you informed as this process takes shape. ..."

Canucks letter excerpt - "In the shorter term, we have faced some challenges with injuries and inconsistency."
"... Moving forward, the next several months will be important as we add even more prospects to our pool and build on the positive steps we have seen this year. We still need to be patient, but I am excited about the journey ahead together. It’s going to be worth it, and I sincerely hope to welcome you back again for the 2018-19 season."

Doug Armstrong comments - "We’re certainly aware of that, and that’s the coach’s responsibility to come up with a game plan to give the players so we can execute that." "First and foremost, it has to start with our special teams and our power play... Our power play’s gonna have to win us some games here in the second half of the year.” "Quite honestly, it’s gonna be very difficult to secure a playoff position, and have success if and when we get there, if our power play’s in the bottom 10 percent of the NHL..."

Organizations being upfront, and plain-speaking. Regarding the first two, there's as much to be inferred by what is not said about today, as there is in looking toward the future.

 

[Ruck Over]

Did you just assume my aunt's gender?

Well, you used the pronoun aunt to describe the sibling of one of your parents. You revealed the gender in the word usage.

noun
noun: aunt; plural noun: aunts
the sister of one's father or mother or the wife of one's uncle.

I will remark however, that an aunt can also be the wife of one's aunt. Times are changing.

 

[Lindberg]

Some folks go to extremes to make a point and then act like they don't deserve a ridiculous response.

 

[deadhead]

That's a lot of incoherent rambling, the Flyers... oh the Flyers. /Takesamoment, /breath, . Hextall removed driftwood and albatros contracts. During his time, non-kid, he added- Dale Weise, Boyd Gordon, Sam Gagner, RJ Umberger, Jori Lehtera, Val Filppula, Brandon Manning, Jordan Weal, Johnny Oduya. That is slop.

And that slop gained him draft picks, a 4th in the Hartnell deal, moving up to #14 for Lehtera, a 4th and 7th with Filppula, and a couple others.
All those moves were place holders with ZERO COST to his future team. And they cleared out the salary cap overhang.
And that was the point, Hextall didn't want to give up assets for players who'd be here from 2015-17, because he wanted those assets to obtain players to play in 2019-20 and 2020-21.

In most cases it's expensive to add top nine forwards or top four defensemen, either a sizeable contract in free agency or often 1st rd picks and more in trades. And if you're not serious about competing for a few years, you don't even bother spending assets on players over 30.

 

[Lindberg]

moving up to #14 for Lehtera

That's incredibly disingenuous.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

How is the discussion about Hakstol being fired expected to go better if folks are steadfast about not wanting him to get fired? Is there bleed to Hextall? Yep, there is, that should go in the Fire Hextall thread truthfully.

About the articles not saying anything about being non-competitive- what's that read between the lines nonsense so often used as an excuse for GM/coach-speak? Why would a team talk about being good later, if they were good now? Anyhow, "Can you cite the GMs for me?" is not the same as, "What exactly did those GMs say?"

I find the way you communicate provocative, for the sake of conflict. How folks against the thought Hakstol should be fired would positively add to discussion is speculative. In reading your post, they too often appear apologetic without giving any reason for merit or positivity rather than wait & see. To which I often reply, I'm fine with wait and see, if that's what the braintrust (Hextall) messages is his intention. However, Hextall is quoted saying that he believes the team is good/can compete now, which brings frustration.

All of that is separate from the meaning of this thread, which is Hakstol is a bad coach. The TK line break-up, the usage of all non-Provorov/Gudas defensemen, the wretched PP2, the wretched PK, the riding of goalies into the ground before an injury, the non-use of the AHL call-up resulting in the #2 goalie injury, the playing of Weise/Lehtera/Goulborne over anybody else, the inadequate usage of Filp v. Laughton. Those are just the offenses of Hakstol from the top of my head which really make up the majority of what this thread should be about. HAKSHELL, how could I forget the Hakshell? But as the ramblings of excuses were given by the most ardent of Hakstol defenders, those faults began to be laid at the feet of Hextall. Because, Hextall, as the GM, could rectify some, or all, of these issues that continually proved the Flyers not to be legitimate threats for the Cup, and often made them non-competitive in games.

The hyperbole, sarcasm, does fly freely. It is my intent to often respond in kind. The last sentence of your post is a jerk comment. Like for like, where it started I do not question.

Sounds good man.

 

[Rebels57]

Good trades- Hartnell, McGinn, Rinaldo, Kimmo, Coburn, Vinnie & L Schenn, B Schenn
None of these trades however can be said to improve the team from the time made to today except the Coburn trade, as it resulted in Gudas (I'm positive but can accept negligible) and TK (plus).

Ghost, Laughton, and Coots were Holmgren guys, might as well replace with Voracek, Simmonds, & G (a Clarke guy). Specifically with Laughton, had he been intended to be part of the next core, it'd be reasonable to think he'd been featured more in some aspect during this past season, instead of getting buried behind Filp and Lehtera.

Grossmann & Pronger was another non-issue, because Sam Gagner was a flop here (and even debated if he wouldn't have been waived right away when acquired). While helluva impressive, and positive Hextall moved on from Grossmann who only played one more credible season in the NHL after trading, the space opened up by his departure didn't go to an improvement, and the money acrobats saved by moving Pronger were not realistically reinvested in the team, not yet at least.

Trading Streit is a near non-issue. He was gone as a UFA regardless, Filp was not the boon this team needed (too little in the acquired year, too late this past season).

Cousins and Marody trades were in effect, get something for nothing. Hakstol had not shown a penchant for trusting, nor wanting, Cousins in the line-up, he traded a marginal player for an ED-proof pick.
Marody was flipping a previous draft pick, for a future draft pick, the Flyers never got to see him play for one of their organizations, and he has already hit the ground running for his new team. But of course, the resulting draft pick outcomes are wait and see. Maybe Marody would have never signed here, empty speculation.

Just so...

That's a lot of incoherent rambling, the Flyers... oh the Flyers. /Takesamoment, /breath, . Hextall removed driftwood and albatros contracts. During his time, non-kid, he added- Dale Weise, Boyd Gordon, Sam Gagner, RJ Umberger, Jori Lehtera, Val Filppula, Brandon Manning, Jordan Weal, Johnny Oduya. That is slop.

 

[Ruck Over]

Some folks go to extremes to make a point and then act like they don't deserve a ridiculous response.

I know RIGHT?! @VladDrag going on about me guessing his aunt's gender? What a n00b! If someone were to describe someone as, the sibling of a parent, I'd go and use a pronoun like they. But when you say aunt, clearly you are talking about a female presented(?), female identified(?), i dunno anymore. VladDrag has made a sailent point after all. NOT!11!!!

 

[deadhead]

That's incredibly disingenuous.

Lehtera was clearly a salary dump, and that's part of the negotiations, I doubt St Louis gives up the 2nd 1st rd pick if we don't take on Lehtera's salary.

 

[Ruck Over]

And that was the point, Hextall didn't want to give up assets for players who'd be here from 2015-17, because he wanted those assets to obtain players to play in 2019-20 and 2020-21.

In most cases it's expensive to add top nine forwards or top four defensemen, either a sizeable contract in free agency or often 1st rd picks and more in trades. And if you're not serious about competing for a few years, you don't even bother spending assets on players over 30.

And my point, is that Hextall should be working on finding players who will be here from 2017 and beyond. Saying it's expensive to do something is akin to whining that something is difficult. He's the GM, it's his job to figure it out. Having a player in 2017 that could still be productive in 2020 would mean Hextall is excelling at his job. Punting the ball down the road because, "reasons" is lame.