Player Discussion Filip Hronek

[Petey But Really Jim]

The Canucks are guaranteed to not win the Cup next year. You can all just take a year off of posting. I promise that the conversation will be the same 365 days from now.

 

[VanJack]

The Canucks are guaranteed to not win the Cup next year. You can all just take a year off of posting. I promise that the conversation will be the same 365 days from now.

Who cares about the Cup? At this point, starved Canuck fans would even settle for a couple of playoff games at Rogers Arena.

If the Kraken can do it--why not the Canucks?

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

You’re looking at extreme examples without context. OEL was signed as a star. So was Jones, whether he is or not. Nurse signed after a 7th place Norris finish.

This past offseason we saw Weegar sign for 8 years at 6.25, Sanheim sign for the same deal as Weegar, Cernak sign for 8 at 5.2, and Sergachev sign for 8 at 8 and Sergachev was widely seen as paying for the future. We also saw Lindholm sign for 8 years at 6.5 in March last year.

Hronek is a talented player but doesn’t have the track record of any of them save Sanheim. I think it’s far more likely his cap hit starts with a 6 than a 7

Again I hope your right, I don't think you are though.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Who cares about the Cup? At this point, starved Canuck fans would even settle for a couple of playoff games at Rogers Arena.

If the Kraken can do it--why not the Canucks?

This is so awful...

I think you are right too. Bennings worst crime...

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

The Canucks are guaranteed to not win the Cup next year. You can all just take a year off of posting. I promise that the conversation will be the same 365 days from now.

No way, I mean we (somehow...) will make a bunch of trades and get out of cap hell, apparently thinking otherwise is hyperbole (even though we've heard this crap for years, and history is in fact a thing), so many incoming trades even though we couldn't trade any of these players during the year, or last off season, they will be easy to move now, somehow, because...........

Oh, and all of the players who suddenly emerged at the end of the year (during garbage time, against non playoff teams) will absolutely continue their up ward trajectory, because why wouldn't they?

Even Hirose, I mean he proved in 7 games (in garbage time against non playoff teams) that he will be an NHL dman, or, at the very least be the best dman on the AHL club, somehow, in 7 games.

Oh and Hronek is a top 4 dman (or even top pairing dman depending on who you talk to on here), he's underrated defensively (somehow), looks like the best shot we have on the blue line but won't get a big raise, somehow, saying otherwise is fear mongering.......

Oh and it's a guarantee that we won't finish 22nd OA next year, because finishing a little bit higher doesn't mean we're a mediocre team or anything......

Let's not forget either that anything but blind devotion to this ("new and improved") management means you want to rebuild forever.....now that's my favourite......

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

No way, I mean we (somehow...) will make a bunch of trades and get out of cap hell, apparently thinking otherwise is hyperbole (even though we've heard this crap for years, and history is in fact a thing), so many incoming trades even though we couldn't trade any of these players during the year, or last off season, they will be easy to move now, somehow, because...........

Oh, and all of the players who suddenly emerged at the end of the year (during garbage time, against non playoff teams) will absolutely continue their up ward trajectory, because why wouldn't they?

Even Hirose, I mean he proved in 7 games (in garbage time against non playoff teams) that he will be an NHL dman, or, at the very least be the best dman on the AHL club, somehow, in 7 games.

Oh and Hronek is a top 4 dman (or even top pairing dman depending on who you talk to on here), he's underrated defensively (somehow), looks like the best shot we have on the blue line but won't get a big raise, somehow, saying otherwise is fear mongering.......

Oh and it's a guarantee that we won't finish 22nd OA next year, because finishing a little bit higher doesn't mean we're a mediocre team or anything......

Let's not forget either that anything but blind devotion to this ("new and improved") management means you want to rebuild forever.....now that's my favourite......

You're trying to insult me without quoting me. This reminds me so much of this:

 

[racerjoe]

History is a thing... but Bennings history in what can be done will be done is useless.

History is a thing Hronek was that top pairing 3/4 dman this season for the wings.

No one here has said we are anything more than a bubble team. We are saying you need to get there to improve to be a contender. You don't go from terrible to sudden cup contenders.

No one is saying blind faith, but it is asinine to assume any management team is as bad as Benning, and will be making the same errors he did.

 

[Raistlin]

History is a thing... but Bennings history in what can be done will be done is useless.

History is a thing Hronek was that top pairing 3/4 dman this season for the wings.

No one here has said we are anything more than a bubble team. We are saying you need to get there to improve to be a contender. You don't go from terrible to sudden cup contenders.

No one is saying blind faith, but it is asinine to assume any management team is as bad as Benning, and will be making the same errors he did.

and what the rest of us are saying is that, by being a bubble team next year, you are locking us in as a bubble team for the next 4-5 years. Because we dont just look at next year, throw our hands up and say "we will somehow get out of cap hell without incurring long term pain, loss of picks, loss of futures". That permanent loss is pick 17 and 40 in this especially deep draft. The only argument against that is assuming that EP will eave if that is the case..... which is possible, but a hypothetical that just leads nowhere.

No one is saying this management team is as bad as Benning, we are past that, we are saying the damage Benning had done is critical, we can't slap duct tape over it, it takes a few years to resolve the bad contracts, sit back and make a Hronek trade in 2 years. Blindly charging into playoffs next year is killing the team 3 years down the road. Basically Linden vs Benning circa 2018.

I am well aware that arguing this in 2023 is pointless, because fact is, ownership only prioritize next year, because of moves like this. How best to go forward? Don't force things, dont sign any long term deals this UFA. 1-2 year max to lessen the burden when the team has the cap space to actually do something meaningful in 2025. You want to make playoffs? Let Tocchet do his thing, lets see him replicate 14-5-2 with this current team if the rot and mismanagement is indeed a thing of the past.

 

[Nick Lang]

History is a thing... but Bennings history in what can be done will be done is useless.

History is a thing Hronek was that top pairing 3/4 dman this season for the wings.

No one here has said we are anything more than a bubble team. We are saying you need to get there to improve to be a contender. You don't go from terrible to sudden cup contenders.

No one is saying blind faith, but it is asinine to assume any management team is as bad as Benning, and will be making the same errors he did.

Yup Benning is history himself. Unfortunately he left us in an extremely difficult situation. It's pretty obvious they'll hopefully look to shed a couple contracts and pick up a couple under the radar players to balance out the team. It could go real well and we make playoffs, it could be ho hum where we toil in 18-22nd, or it could be just awful and leave us with the same team and struggles as last year.

Some people are very pessimistic, but I understand it completely after what I consider the worst/most frustrating 5 years I've endured as a fan. On the other hand some people are really over-rating what they hope is a guaranteed/bubble playoff team. I am definitely not in that camp. Whatever this team's goals are this year this core has yet to prove they can come into camp and put it all together to start the season. A big concern for many is that this isn't a one year outlook. We have a problematic outlook for the next several years and that will make it hard to turn a maybe bubble team into a contender, even 4 years down the road.

For myself I believe this management team isn't dumb and has a chance to pull off some magic, but there are giant obstacles everywhere at the same time. I just hope we see some real smart moves that point us in the right direction for the future. I've always thought that this team can't truly be competitive until Myers is off the books and that's looking to be correct so if I was management I'd still be setting goals on 24/25 to start turning this thing around.

 

[iFan]

Who cares about the Cup? At this point, starved Canuck fans would even settle for a couple of playoff games at Rogers Arena.

If the Kraken can do it--why not the Canucks?

and it’s that thinking that will always hinder this club from making the right moves and prevent us from winning a cup

 

[racerjoe]

and what the rest of us are saying is that, by being a bubble team next year, you are locking us in as a bubble team for the next 4-5 years. Because we dont just look at next year, throw our hands up and say "we will somehow get out of cap hell without incurring long term pain, loss of picks, loss of futures". That permanent loss is pick 17 and 40 in this especially deep draft. The only argument against that is assuming that EP will eave if that is the case..... which is possible, but a hypothetical that just leads nowhere.

No one is saying this management team is as bad as Benning, we are past that, we are saying the damage Benning had done is critical, we can't slap duct tape over it, it takes a few years to resolve the bad contracts, sit back and make a Hronek trade in 2 years. Blindly charging into playoffs next year is killing the team 3 years down the road. Basically Linden vs Benning circa 2018.

I am well aware that arguing this in 2023 is pointless, because fact is, ownership only prioritize next year, because of moves like this. How best to go forward? Don't force things, dont sign any long term deals this UFA. 1-2 year max to lessen the burden when the team has the cap space to actually do something meaningful in 2025. You want to make playoffs? Let Tocchet do his thing, lets see him replicate 14-5-2 with this current team if the rot and mismanagement is indeed a thing of the past.

Being a bubble team locks you into nothing. Things can change quick. Look at the Panthers. They did what we are trying to do, and became the President Trophy winners and then just went and did huge changes again.

No one things it will be easy. Like I haven't seen one person say it is easy. What they have said is its way harder to get players as good as Petterson Hughes Demko Miller and Kuze. They also realize that isn't enough, but its a huge starting point.

Finally yes people have constantly been lumping them in with Benning. Saying "same things as always" or comparing Hronek to Gudbranson.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Not sure why you would ask a question like that, we are taking about Smith, not every other pick. A lesser prospect in Lundqvust was traded for a 1st and Smith had accomplished more. Whether you think they are worth that doesn’t matter because ultimately that is how the GMs valued it.


Montour wasn’t that good back then, what’s so hard to understand? Montour playing top 4 min on a shit team doesn’t really mean he’s a top 4 guy. I am guessing Schenn got like top4 minutes with us and i am pretty sure he’s not a top4 guy. Hell Jack Johnson plays top4 minutes for the Blackhawks last season, would anyone look at his ice time and proclaim him top 4 guy? There is a reason he went for so little but good on Florida for sticking with him and letting him Blossom.

Of course there is a large variance in value between players. Forsling was not established and seen as a replacement player when he was picked up by Florida. Established players cost more than ones that are not, yes we all know that. You do know that every off season teams are taking flyers on players and only like a handful ends up being good. Nobody argues against doing that, but when you take those bets, we call them bet for a reason because odds of them hitting are really freaking low.

You said Smith was recently a 1st, so had 1st equivalent value, that's false. Ludqvist didn't deserve a 1st either. What we think matters because we can't say value is X based upon stupid trades.

Fair point about Montour being on a bad team, but the point is that there was enough there that he was worth taking a chance on as a top4 RHD. That's all the Canucks need to do.

Believe it or not, Hronek is a bet too. What you pay for him isn't necessarily what he will return. He's played 6 games here. Could you imagine paying that much and him faltering here?

The end point is that because there is variance, and underrated buys, there is no have-to-pay value, unless the team feels that they have to pay. But we can't say because the team paid X, that this is the value that always must be paid. Clearly, that is incorrect.

 

[Raistlin]

Being a bubble team locks you into nothing. Things can change quick. Look at the Panthers. They did what we are trying to do, and became the President Trophy winners and then just went and did huge changes again.

No one things it will be easy. Like I haven't seen one person say it is easy. What they have said is its way harder to get players as good as Petterson Hughes Demko Miller and Kuze. They also realize that isn't enough, but its a huge starting point.

Finally yes people have constantly been lumping them in with Benning. Saying "same things as always" or comparing Hronek to Gudbranson.

not me, Hronek is a good player. my beef is not the right time, nothing to do with the quality of the player.

once both Hronek's new deal and EP's come in, with a declining Miller and OEL contract still there, with not adequate new elite talent coming in, you will feel the lock.

 

[racerjoe]

not me, Hronek is a good player. my beef is not the right time, nothing to do with the quality of the player.

Thats fine, but there absolutely has been people saying that. Comparing all these moves and saying it is the same as Benning, without realizing the biggest difference is the pro scouting... and that can make moves completely different.

 

[VanJack]

and it’s that thinking that will always hinder this club from making the right moves and prevent us from winning a cup

Look at the teams that finally win a Cup. Usually they fail in the playoffs for two or three seasons before they finally break through.

But if you're locked into the lottery year after year, then you're years away from contending for anything.

The Seattle Kraken are in their second year of existence. But they're into the conference semi-finals and playing the Stars tough? Are they Cup threats? Not likely at this point.

But can you imagine how Rogers Arena would be rocking right now if the roles were reversed?

Canuck fans aren't greedy.....but there hasn't been a playoff game at Rogers Arena since 2014, coming up on a decade. Even a couple of playoff games in this hockey mad market would be a big breakthrough right now.

 

[strattonius]

I like the Hronek deal so that means I just want to get 2 games of the playoffs and I have no foresight to the long term health of the organization. That's great guys thanks.

 

[credulous]

Look at the teams that finally win a Cup. Usually they fail in the playoffs for two or three seasons before they finally break through.

you're mistaking cause and effect. teams that win the cup generally have sustained playoff success because it's very hard to win the cup and you need to be a very good team for a long time to get multiple chances at winning it. just playing in the playoffs doesn't actually make you a better team

 

[strattonius]

I can honestly live with giving up a 1st for this guy, but throwing in that 2nd still bothers me. It's just so typical of this organization. Like, please, stop pissing away 2nd round picks like they're nothing. Good players get taken in the 2nd round every single year. Hell, Hronek was a 2nd round pick.

Where does the assumption that this deal gets done without the 2nd? It IS a valuable currency, like you say - so what would make you think Yzerman pulls the trigger without it?

'It's just to typical of this organization'
Don't conflate 8 years of Benning tossing early picks for reclamation projects as the same thing as adding a 2nd in a deal that gets you a top 4 defenseman.

 

[Gurn]

Jim Benning got fired, leaving this team in a mess cap wise.

Jim Rutherford's new management team then signs
Brock
J.T.
Mikheyev

putting the team back into a cap mess.
So that has not changed.

The depth players are a bit better under the new guys; but there is a long, long way to go.

 

[arttk]

You said Smith was recently a 1st, so had 1st equivalent value, that's false. Ludqvist didn't deserve a 1st either. What we think matters because we can't say value is X based upon stupid trades.

Fair point about Montour being on a bad team, but the point is that there was enough there that he was worth taking a chance on as a top4 RHD. That's all the Canucks need to do.

Believe it or not, Hronek is a bet too. What you pay for him isn't necessarily what he will return. He's played 6 games here. Could you imagine paying that much and him faltering here?

The end point is that because there is variance, and underrated buys, there is no have-to-pay value, unless the team feels that they have to pay. But we can't say because the team paid X, that this is the value that always must be paid. Clearly, that is incorrect.

Smith had 1st round value not just because he was a former 1st rounder. He had 1st round value because he had 1st round pedigree, was part of a all rookie team, trended good enough to play in the NHL in his D+3 season. Those are better achievements than Lundqvist who struggled in the A.

I don't disagree with the idea that we should've traded for Montour but Benning is like shit Midas when it comes to D. I don't see the point of saying why didn't we do that when we can use that statement for EVERYTHING when he was around. I also don't disagree that we should be making that kind of bets right now and I expect them to make those bets as soon as the playoffs are over and moves starts to be made. I would see it as a failure if they don't make bets like that. They should trade some low picks for some D or sign some FA for a low price and see if those guys will hit.

I am not as convinced as management with Hronek. I hope they are right because I am on the fence but considering what they paid for him, they are very confident about him. They paid top4 price for him, there is no doubt about that.

Different caliber of players will always get valued differently. Just because you think Montour and Hronek are the same level of players doesn't mean the ones who define the market thinks so. If Montour was seen as a sure fire top4 D across the league, he would've gone for much higher than a 3rd rounder, especially at the trade deadline where guys like Chabot get traded for a 1st rounder, and this is by the same team. Considering the constant demand of top4 D in this league, you think other GMS won't jump at the opportunity if a obviously top 4 guy is available for a 3rd rounder? Especially during trade deadline when every contender is shopping for top4D.