Player Discussion Filip Hronek

[PuckMunchkin]

We'll have to agree to disagree...and given the team's track record over the past few years I think the evidence at hand supports my point of view. For the record I think the team needs both a better supporting cast and another elite player - all winning teams have a larger core than the three players posters think constitute our current core.

Its odd that so many smart posters dont see this.

 

[Gurn]

Hot take.... SC contenders/dynasty team core roster players are better than the Canucks current roster..

View attachment 702870

Yep- which is why the Nucks need more talent and depth.
But hey, make the play offs and anything can happen, though usually doesn't.

 

[racerjoe]

Its odd that so many smart posters dont see this.

That is a pretty big strawman argument. though.

Like those are just our superstars.

When you look at who people include as those teams "cores" and extend out Kuze, Miller, Hronek stack up just fine and better in some cases.

Our issue is our depth doesn't stack up. This show the most on defense where it is just terrible.

We know we are not good enough, and anyone who tries to make that point is just making a strawman argument.

The fact is, it is a lot easier to find those depth pieces than find Hughes Petterson, Kuze Miller and Demko.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

That is a pretty big strawman argument. though.

I dont really understand how its a strawman.

I think it is just a missevaluation by posters. They dont see how our core does not stack up against the cores of cup winning teams.

Like those are just our superstars.

When you look at who people include as those teams "cores" and extend out Kuze, Miller, Hronek stack up just fine and better in some cases.

See? Its not a strawman.

You think Kuzmenko Miller and Hronek are included as core players that stack up against the cores of cup winners.

Our issue is our depth doesn't stack up. This show the most on defense where it is just terrible.

We know we are not good enough, and anyone who tries to make that point is just making a strawman argument.

The fact is, it is a lot easier to find those depth pieces than find Hughes Petterson, Kuze Miller and Demko.

I know this is going to go in circles again and again and again.

But...

- Kuzmenko will decline, his % are unsustainable
- Miller is old, he already showed decline this year
- Demko has not been able to stay healthy
- Our salary structure is out of whack. Go look at the discounts the cup winners got.

Again... Yes. If the goal is not to win the cup. Yeah... But I don't really know how to even begin to have that conversation. It doesn't interest me one bit.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Yep- which is why the Nucks need more talent and depth.
But hey, make the play offs and anything can happen, though usually doesn't.

Lol…nobody has even claimed the Canucks to be SC contenders for a start..so the lists are pure drivel.

 

[Gurn]

Lol…nobody has even claimed the Canucks to be SC contenders for a start..so the lists are pure drivel.

Isn't the goal to be a contender?
If so, then doesn't the lack of more than 3 'core' pieces mean they are not going to be cup competitive.?

But, hey, make the playoffs and anything can happen, but usually doesn't.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Isn't the goal to be a contender?
If so, then doesn't the lack of more than 3 'core' pieces mean they are not going to be cup competitive.?

But, hey, make the playoffs and anything can happen, but usually doesn't.

I think we are at the crux of the issue.

There are some folks who have given up on actually contending...

 

[arttk]

Its odd that so many smart posters dont see this.

Nobody is arguing that we shouldn’t add more core pieces, we are just arguing it’s not worth tanking to add them because in the process of tanking you will just end up losing the ones we already have and we already have the hardest to acquire pieces already.

Your pov on Miller is like hilarious.

Mackinnon Rantanen Makar Byram Kadri

Stamkos Hedman Kucherov Point Vasilevski

Crosby Malkin Letang MAF Kessel

Kane Toews Hossa Sharp Seabrook Keith

I don’t know how you can list guys like Sharp, Kessel, Kadri as core pieces and turn around and say Miller and Kuz are not. Do we really need to point that out to you?

Nevermind the fact aside from Tampa, all your examples contain core pieces (that you have defined) they are not obtained via draft. Like you want yo argue we have to tank to get core and then you bring out a bunch of examples where oh the core was signed via FA or acquired through trade.

That’s the point we are trying to make, you do not need to tank to get additional core pieces.

 

[Nick Lang]

I think we are at the crux of the issue.

There are some folks who have given up on actually contending...

It's kind of like for some people that's the sacrifice we have to make to be sure Petey and Hughes stay. It's definitely not a position of strength or stability. We sure could use a draft pick or two turning out big. Obviously lol.

 

[arttk]

It's kind of like for some people that's the sacrifice we have to make to be sure Petey and Hughes stay. It's definitely not a position of strength or stability. We sure could use a draft pick or two turning out big. Obviously lol.

I don’t think it’s a sacrifice. We just think that it is possible to get more core pieces without tanking. That’s the thing that you guys can’t seem to wrap your heads around while list core pieces on other teams that are acquired via FA and trade.

 

[Hoglander]

The core would be fine if OEL and Myers were actual core players, and not tanking the cap situation. Kuzmenko nearly scored 40, Miller is really good. Now throw (a healthy) Hronek in there. If Boeser gets his head back in the game after the whole father thing, there's another core player. Myers' time here is nearly finished, then move out Garland/Beau, replace them with Hoglander/Podkolzin, and use the capspace to add another top4 dman. Fill out the bottom of the lineup with Abbottsford grads, and then look into buying out OEL and upgrading the D farther. All doable within a calendar year give or take, and the team should be significantly improved, with a much more balanced core than it is now.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Isn't the goal to be a contender?
If so, then doesn't the lack of more than 3 'core' pieces mean they are not going to be cup competitive.?

But, hey, make the playoffs and anything can happen, but usually doesn't.

The goal is to be a contender,but you rarely go from being a lottery team to an instant SC contender..you have to be a sustainable playoff team first

We have 4 core players …Miller has averaged around 90 points the last two seasons..that clearly puts him in the upper echelon on the league

Only one core player off..?…Its not a bad place to be..imo..especially considering their ages..and they are coming into their prime years..

 

[Nick Lang]

I don’t think it’s a sacrifice. We just think that it is possible to get more core pieces without tanking. That’s the thing that you guys can’t seem to wrap your heads around while list core pieces on other teams that are acquired via FA and trade.

I'm not even really pro tank. It seems like some are caught in a conundrum. I just think we have a huge task ahead of us and we're going to need something to work out to make us better. I do think it would be nice to think long-term for once and build a more sustainable pipeline though. Now, either a couple picks work out, Hronek revolutionarizes our D, or we maybe trade our first next year and hope we hit a player that way. Other than that it will be hard to improve through dumping players teams don't really want. Hopefully we acquire those pieces somehow but I have a feeling we'll ice a similar line-up next season.

 

[arttk]

I'm not even really pro tank. It seems like some are caught in a conundrum. I just think we have a huge task ahead of us and we're going to need something to work out to make us better. I do think it would be nice to think long-term for once and build a more sustainable pipeline though. Now, either a couple picks work out, Hronek revolutionarizes our D, or we maybe trade our first next year and hope we hit a player that way. Other than that it will be hard to improve through dumping players teams don't really want. Hopefully we acquire those pieces somehow but I have a feeling we'll ice a similar line-up next season.

I think it’s hard whatever path we take. I don’t understand why anybody thinks there is an easy path to build a contender, if it was easy then all teams would’ve been a contender at some point.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I'm not even really pro tank. It seems like some are caught in a conundrum. I just think we have a huge task ahead of us and we're going to need something to work out to make us better. I do think it would be nice to think long-term for once and build a more sustainable pipeline though. Now, either a couple picks work out, Hronek revolutionarizes our D, or we maybe trade our first next year and hope we hit a player that way. Other than that it will be hard to improve through dumping players teams don't really want. Hopefully we acquire those pieces somehow but I have a feeling we'll ice a similar line-up next season.

There’s always the ‘it’s impossible’ to improve crowd…because of cap/ prospect ramifications…We managed to acquire a 25 year old top 4 RHD with a surplus 1st round pick

If it had been our only 1st round pick it would have been tough to swallow…

Canucks filled a massive deficiency with this trade.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Who decides Durzi is comparable with Hronek?

Hronek is far far better defensively. You don't just get to point to any RD of roughly the same age and say that if we're happy acquiring one then we should give up our own 1st for the other. That's just...not rooted in reality. I'm not sure what point you're even attempting to approach.

Severson becomes Myers. The quality and upside isn't even close.

I would far rather our braintrust use assets to bet on a player they like with growth rather than give Severson some millstone contract.

And using post-hoc analysis is lazy. For every Forsling and Montour there's a trillion Riley Stillmans and Travis Dermotts. You can't just point to the outliers and say, 'do that!' It's lazy and irrelevant.

Re: Post-Hoc: What event am I saying occurred because of a previous event?

The initial exchange with racerjoe implied that the market for top4 RHD is efficient, ergo Hronek's trade return. It has since morphed to allow for exceptions and hesitation. The key understanding now being that the Dman market is inefficient (which is the point I'm making). That there is no automatic/expected price. Example: Montour, Forsling, and even Durzi (You're proving my point for me).

There are a lot of Dmen floating around that hold positions on teams that belie their starting trade value. Ty Smith and John Marino were brought up as examples. To me, Smith wasn't worth a 1st and so Marino was garnered for less than what his D Corps value would suggest. Still, it happened and NJD garnered good value.

On Severson: The assumptions you've made here are outlandish, but again, miss the point. The point is that the Canucks could have garnered greater than marginal value (Beauvillier) with another RHD from FA/Trade. And if they had done so, then it's a net win for the Horvat + Dman template, while also still serving the re-tool effort. It just goes about it differently than paying top dollar for current needs.

 

[racerjoe]

Thats not exactly what I said or what I meant...

 

[arttk]

Re: Post-Hoc: What event am I saying occurred because of a previous event?

The initial exchange with racerjoe implied that the market for top4 RHD is efficient, ergo Hronek's trade return. It has since morphed to allow for exceptions and hesitation. The key understanding now being that the Dman market is inefficient (which is the point I'm making). That there is no automatic/expected price. Example: Montour, Forsling, and even Durzi (You're proving my point for me).

There are a lot of Dmen floating around that hold positions on teams that belie their starting trade value. Ty Smith and John Marino were brought up as examples. To me, Smith wasn't worth a 1st and so Marino was garnered for less than what his D Corps value would suggest. Still, it happened and NJD garnered good value.

On Severson: The assumptions you've made here are outlandish, but again, miss the point. The point is that the Canucks could have garnered greater than marginal value (Beauvillier) with another RHD from FA/Trade. And if they had done so, then it's a net win for the Horvat + Dman template, while also still serving the re-tool effort. It just goes about it differently than paying top dollar for current needs.

Montour when he was traded was not a top4 guy. Forsling was on waivers was he not at some point before Florida signed him?

Why are you even using them as an kind of example.

Most dman are not on the market so there really is no market price if they are not available. Market price only really applies when a GM makes somebody available for trade. When an established top4 D is made available, the value tends to be 1st + 2nd/3rdz. It doesn’t matter if you believe Smith to be worth a 1st rounder or not, he was a recent 1st rounder and was on an all rookie team and in the context of that trade, he was the 1st round equivalent.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Montour when he was traded was not a top4 guy. Forsling was on waivers was he not at some point before Florida signed him?

Why are you even using them as an kind of example.

Most dman are not on the market so there really is no market price if they are not available. Market price only really applies when a GM makes somebody available for trade. When an established top4 D is made available, the value tends to be 1st + 2nd/3rdz. It doesn’t matter if you believe Smith to be worth a 1st rounder or not, he was a recent 1st rounder and was on an all rookie team and in the context of that trade, he was the 1st round equivalent.

Would you pay a 1st for every 1st rounder in 2018 draft right now? (I hope not) At some point, you have to evaluate the player in the trade to assess it. Smith wasn't worth a 1st, at the time of trade or now.

Montour finished 4th in TOI (among Dmen) on both ANA and BUF before being traded to FLA...? Top3-4 in production as well.

Forsling was claimed off of waivers, yes. These examples show the huge degree of variance present in the market for defenseman. You can pay a deadline price to get one, or use shrewd pro-scouting to get one. There's no "have to" payment plan.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I don’t think it’s a sacrifice. We just think that it is possible to get more core pieces without tanking. That’s the thing that you guys can’t seem to wrap your heads around while list core pieces on other teams that are acquired via FA and trade.

Around and around it goes.

 

[Nick Lang]

There’s always the ‘it’s impossible’ to improve crowd…because of cap/ prospect ramifications…We managed to acquire a 25 year old top 4 RHD with a surplus 1st round pick

If it had been our only 1st round pick it would have been tough to swallow…

Canucks filled a massive deficiency with this trade.

Yep, we wanted and needed a top 4 RD. We went out and got one. The price was what it is for that commodity so I can't complain about that at all. A lot of moving parts and being so close to the cap makes it tough to address our other weak areas. We're going to be in tough and it will be interesting to see the approach and how it shakes out. I've heard a 3C is the priority which leads me to believe we may roll with a similar d depending on who impresses at camp.

 

[arttk]

Would you pay a 1st for every 1st rounder in 2018 draft right now? (I hope not) At some point, you have to evaluate the player in the trade to assess it. Smith wasn't worth a 1st, at the time of trade or now.

Montour finished 4th in TOI (among Dmen) on both ANA and BUF before being traded to FLA...? Top3-4 in production as well.

Forsling was claimed off of waivers, yes. These examples show the huge degree of variance present in the market for defenseman. You can pay a deadline price to get one, or use shrewd pro-scouting to get one. There's no "have to" payment plan.

Not sure why you would ask a question like that, we are taking about Smith, not every other pick. A lesser prospect in Lundqvust was traded for a 1st and Smith had accomplished more. Whether you think they are worth that doesn’t matter because ultimately that is how the GMs valued it.


Montour wasn’t that good back then, what’s so hard to understand? Montour playing top 4 min on a shit team doesn’t really mean he’s a top 4 guy. I am guessing Schenn got like top4 minutes with us and i am pretty sure he’s not a top4 guy. Hell Jack Johnson plays top4 minutes for the Blackhawks last season, would anyone look at his ice time and proclaim him top 4 guy? There is a reason he went for so little but good on Florida for sticking with him and letting him Blossom.

Of course there is a large variance in value between players. Forsling was not established and seen as a replacement player when he was picked up by Florida. Established players cost more than ones that are not, yes we all know that. You do know that every off season teams are taking flyers on players and only like a handful ends up being good. Nobody argues against doing that, but when you take those bets, we call them bet for a reason because odds of them hitting are really freaking low.

 

[arttk]

Around and around it goes.

Never going to give you up

 

[VanJack]

It's going to be a long summer, waiting for injury news on Hronek. He better be 100 percent by training camp, otherwise this trade is a borderline disaster.

I see also, that the Wings top d-man prospect Simon Edvinsson will be forced to have shoulder surgery and will miss the next 4-6 months. It's a crippling blow to the Wings back end.

Maybe the Wings were concerned that Hronek might be in the same boat--which is the reason they dealt him.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

It's going to be a long summer, waiting for injury news on Hronek. He better be 100 percent by training camp, otherwise this trade is a borderline disaster.

I see also, that the Wings top d-man prospect Simon Edvinsson will be forced to have shoulder surgery and will miss the next 4-6 months. It's a crippling blow to the Wings back end.

Maybe the Wings were concerned that Hronek might be in the same boat--which is the reason they dealt him.

I think it has more to do with a combination of Detroit not wanting to pay his next contract and them needing star talent still.