Player Discussion Filip Hronek

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arttk

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It's hard to improve without quality prospects, draft pick depth/quality, or cap space. The Canucks lack all three. Those are the primary assets teams can leverage to get better.
I don’t think it’s hard to improve without quality prospects. You can trade picks for players, the problem with that is it is completely unsustainable.

I think that’s why Allvin is so adamant in getting assets back for Garland, Boeser, Myers and Beau. He needs those picks to flip for players to improve the team in the short term. Also he is keeping the 1st rounder so there is at least 1 player that has a higher chance of breaking into the team 2-3 years down the line so there is some degree of sustainability.

Cap space is only an issue if they can’t get rid of players and considering players like Miller can go from untradeable cap anchor to top 5 trade target in a space of a couple months. The whole notion of us unable to free up cap is media hyperbole.
 

Raistlin

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Aug 25, 2006
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We will indeed have improvement come from within. For example, you probably don't count Hoglander or Podkolzin as prospects but they contributed very little to the big club last season, I expect growth from both.
yes, long term, they are crucial, but just enough to offset the loss of two of Pearson/Boeser/Garland next year, I bank on Mikhayev moving the needle a lot more than the kids in 2024.
A guy like Hirose has shown that he really has something to offer.
based on 7 games against some of the worst competition tanking? far too early to tell.
Kuzmenko will be a more complete and effective player (though I predict a lower goal total and higher assists and some ignorant kvetching on these boards by stat watchers).
Or he can go the other way, he is now a known quantity that coaches have tape to counter on. I dont expect 27% shooting every year do you? again, possible to go so many ways.
The addition of Hronek and his growth is another thing that you undervalue.

One thing we seem to disagree on is the true quality of this team.
Growth is if we can find him a partner. he didnt fare well away from Maatta.
We were a better team last year on paper than we were the year before. But last year every single thing went wrong whereas the previous year we got the Boudreau momentum and had lights out goaltending.
but so is every other team. They are all better than last year because they do the same things we do. Do I put any stock on the blistering record against the second weakest schedule in the league? not really.

14-5-2 !
but just 3 of the Ws against playoff teams.
3W vs ducks, 2W vs hawks, 1W vs sharks

We are not likely to be as good as you think we are. The one thing we are definitely better this year is our player development situation. Coliton and Sedins are doing a bang up job prepping the baby canucks, a reason for optimism certainly.
The flat cap has f***ed with a lot of team's plans but I don't actually think that Boeser and Garland are negative value.

RDs are so short (pun not intended) around the league that we may be able to move Myers without any kind of retention or even taking on a bad deal.
agree. Myers has more than perceived value after bonus paid. but Boeser/Garland probably less than they are worth, not negative though.
We also have assets who aren't bad but are redundant and can hopefully be shifted for assets that more fit our needs.
Like we have like 12 top 9 wingers. If we can turn a couple of them into potential D or a 3rd line C, or into assets which we can turn into those positions then all of a sudden we look better.
not good D or 3C for our expendable wingers in a losing team.
This isn't the 2016 Canucks trying to convince ourselves that we can compete with Granlund and Baertschi on the top line. We have talent and assets, but some of them are poorly allocated.

But if your barrier for discourse is that I have to know who we're trading and to whom...I mean, I'm not in the GM's room so I can't answer that for you.
Its a steep uphill climb to get back to respectability. This team is not respectable right now around the league. Whatever success they achieve is on the back of 3 players, like oilers pre hyman/kane/ekstrom/bouchard/skinner. meaningful improvement down the road is possible but unlikely with the way the team operates. Thats all it is, trying to increase likelihood for sustained success.

Without a solid pipe/ cap flexibility/ draft capital. whatever success we are talking about is like what the jets/preds/islanders/penguins achieved recently. No doubt good enough for some. Its just a game, enjoy the sunshine casual crowd.
 
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Nick Lang

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We really don't know how Hronek will be on a consistent basis and how he affects the team overall. He is certainly capable of good play and maybe enough to elevate our D a notch or two, or maybe not. We will see either way but it's also going to be very tricky for management to augment the team while allowing for pay raises on the horizon. With a bit of luck we could be competitive if the market opens a bit and we obtain the right pieces on the lowdown.
 

PuckMunchkin

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According to his list I would put Kuze there. The only five players that were definitely better was Tampa, and I mean I think they are the best team in modern history. This is also not to say the players after those five are equal, and thats why we need to improve our depth.
Wow.

Okay.

I guess if you are willing to be this optimistic I can see believing in the retool.

I would say Demko is a question mark.
Miller is already on the decline.
Kuzmenko is likely to regress to the mean.

So we need two or three core pieces.

This is my opinion. And why I keep saying this core is not special.
 

MarkusNaslund19

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yes, long term, they are crucial, but just enough to offset the loss of two of Pearson/Boeser/Garland next year, I bank on Mikhayev moving the needle a lot more than the kids in 2024.

based on 7 games against some of the worst competition tanking? far too early to tell.

Or he can go the other way, he is now a known quantity that coaches have tape to counter on. I dont expect 27% shooting every year do you? again, possible to go so many ways.

Growth is if we can find him a partner. he didnt fare well away from Maatta.

but so is every other team. They are all better than last year because they do the same things we do. Do I put any stock on the blistering record against the second weakest schedule in the league? not really.

14-5-2 !
but just 3 of the Ws against playoff teams.
3W vs ducks, 2W vs hawks, 1W vs sharks

We are not likely to be as good as you think we are. The one thing we are definitely better this year is our player development situation. Coliton and Sedins are doing a bang up job prepping the baby canucks, a reason for optimism certainly.

agree. Myers has more than perceived value after bonus paid. but Boeser/Garland probably less than they are worth, not negative though.

not good D or 3C for our expendable wingers in a losing team.

Its a steep uphill climb to get back to respectability. This team is not respectable right now around the league. Whatever success they achieve is on the back of 3 players, like oilers pre hyman/kane/ekstrom/bouchard/skinner. meaningful improvement down the road is possible but unlikely with the way the team operates. Thats all it is, trying to increase likelihood for sustained success.

Without a solid pipe/ cap flexibility/ draft capital. whatever success we are talking about is like what the jets/preds/islanders/penguins achieved recently. No doubt good enough for some. Its just a game, enjoy the sunshine casual crowd.
I had literally forgotten about Mikheyev when I was posting that. That's a great point, we literally haven't seen him at his best (and whether we do this year or not is contingent on his knee's healing rate), but he's another addition.

I called Hirose an asset (paraphrasing) I didn't leap to saying he's a top pairing D. He is inarguably an asset. his worst-case scenario based on what we saw is really good top pairing D in Abbotsford. I would be shocked if he's not an NHLer when all is said and done, but even top line AHL D is a free asset.

Are you arguing with someone else? I literally said I expect Kuzmenko to be more well rounded and probably score fewer goals. So coming at me with his shooting percentage is like...thanks for supporting my argument. Not necessary, but appreciated I guess.

The Maata shit around Hronek completely lacks context and is where 'advanced stats' without context are entirely useless.
He looks so much worse without Maata because he's basically only ever played with waiver fodder other than him. Old Dekeyser, old Marc Staal, and old Jonathan Ericsson.
Nothing against Maata but he's an eminently replicable player.
Hronek literally led their terrible team in scoring as a 22 year old. Maata isn't the better asset there and it's not even close.

Regarding the record, I'm not blindly looking at our record and extrapolating. We literally started last season with a better roster than we ended the previous year with, but had injuries, dysfunction, and horrendous goaltending.
When we brought a better coach in who was cohesive with management (and who players bought into and respected) our process was better and our results were better.
Also add Hronek and Demko and the moves I presume we will make where we more efficiently allocate our resources.
I will bet you a thousand dollars we finish better than 22nd next year (low bar, but I'm not talking out of my ass when it comes to us improving).
 
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MarkusNaslund19

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Mackinnon Rantanen Makar Byram Kadri

Stamkos Hedman Kucherov Point Vasilevski

Crosby Malkin Letang MAF Kessel

Kane Toews Hossa Sharp Seabrook Keith
Uh... Nobody thinks Kadri or Byram are at their level.

Also, you're literally basically using dynastic teams exclusively which speaks to my point.

Do you want to rebuild in perpetuity for 100 years until the luck possibly works our way and we get an unsustainable core we probably can't keep together like Colorado?

You literally named the 4 best teams (arguably could include L.A. and Boston) of the last 13 years as a 'gotcha'. You're making my point for me.

To further nitpick, Stamkos hasn't been at their level since he broke his leg, still a good player though.

Kessel and MAF? Seriously? I like Fleury but he basically cost them 3 playoff runs with horrendous collapses and Kessel has always been an elite complimentary player.

Again, Seabrook, Sharp, most of Blackhawks era Hossa (though still a great player) are elite complimentary pieces. Not Hughes/Petey level.
 

PuckMunchkin

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Uh... Nobody thinks Kadri or Byram are at their level.

87 points that year for Colorado.
Also, you're literally basically using dynastic teams exclusively which speaks to my point.
I only used cup winning teams here.

Its a great way to show what it takes to win a cup I think.

Do you want to rebuild in perpetuity for 100 years until the luck possibly works our way and we get an unsustainable core we probably can't keep together like Colorado?
This is the Benning trauma in full effect.

The goal for many posters is not to create a long cup window. Just to be one of the NHL teams is enough now.

You literally named the 4 best teams (arguably could include L.A. and Boston) of the last 13 years as a 'gotcha'. You're making my point for me.
Because the goal is to win a cup.

To further nitpick, Stamkos hasn't been at their level since he broke his leg, still a good player though.
I dont think you've watched him play much. He had a 106 point season last year...


Kessel and MAF? Seriously? I like Fleury but he basically cost them 3 playoff runs with horrendous collapses and Kessel has always been an elite complimentary player.
Miller is also an elite complimentary player.

Demko being injured alot has cost us possibly two playoffs already.


MAF has a much longer track record of being a quality starter + has a ring...

Again, Seabrook, Sharp, most of Blackhawks era Hossa (though still a great player) are elite complimentary pieces. Not Hughes/Petey level.
Im sorry... I dont even understand what your argument is at this point.

Was I supposed to list 5 players that are as good as EP and QH?

I listed the core pieces the teams that won cups had.

Everyone of them has 2 or 3 more than we do at the moment. Most of them have better players than our top two and then have 3 more.


Again. If the goal is to be one of the NHL teams then yes sure.

If the goal is to compete for the cup then no. Our core is not special at all. Unless you count having played them out of playoff spots in the first few weeks of the season for 3 years in a row now as special.
 

MarkusNaslund19

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87 points that year for Colorado.

I only used cup winning teams here.

Its a great way to show what it takes to win a cup I think.


This is the Benning trauma in full effect.

The goal for many posters is not to create a long cup window. Just to be one of the NHL teams is enough now.


Because the goal is to win a cup.


I dont think you've watched him play much. He had a 106 point season last year...



Miller is also an elite complimentary player.

Demko being injured alot has cost us possibly two playoffs already.


MAF has a much longer track record of being a quality starter + has a ring...


Im sorry... I dont even understand what your argument is at this point.

Was I supposed to list 5 players that are as good as EP and QH?

I listed the core pieces the teams that won cups had.

Everyone of them has 2 or 3 more than we do at the moment. Most of them have better players than our top two and then have 3 more.


Again. If the goal is to be one of the NHL teams then yes sure.

If the goal is to compete for the cup then no. Our core is not special at all. Unless you count having played them out of playoff spots in the first few weeks of the season for 3 years in a row now as special.
You literally posted that as a response to me saying no team has 5 players the quality of Petey and Hughes.

I've watched a lot of Stamkos, he's the 3rd best forward on his team when he's playing well.

Kadri gets 87 points at 32 and that's remotely comparable to Petey? LOL.

So you want to tank until you think we can be dynastic?

So you're one of those posters who people parody who literally want to tank until/unless you get a window that most franchises have literally never had?
 
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Pastor Of Muppetz

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I know your post is facetious but yeah we do. A guy like Fantilli or Carlsson would go a long way to making the payoffs. Current core doesn’t cut it, in part because there’s simply not enough elite talent.
Its not facetious at all...our best two prime elite players are only 23-24.

There is enough elite talent..There just isnt enough complimentary talent to support it.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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yes, long term, they are crucial, but just enough to offset the loss of two of Pearson/Boeser/Garland next year, I bank on Mikhayev moving the needle a lot more than the kids in 2024.

based on 7 games against some of the worst competition tanking? far too early to tell.

Or he can go the other way, he is now a known quantity that coaches have tape to counter on. I dont expect 27% shooting every year do you? again, possible to go so many ways.

Growth is if we can find him a partner. he didnt fare well away from Maatta.

but so is every other team. They are all better than last year because they do the same things we do. Do I put any stock on the blistering record against the second weakest schedule in the league? not really.

14-5-2 !
but just 3 of the Ws against playoff teams.
3W vs ducks, 2W vs hawks, 1W vs sharks

We are not likely to be as good as you think we are. The one thing we are definitely better this year is our player development situation. Coliton and Sedins are doing a bang up job prepping the baby canucks, a reason for optimism certainly.

agree. Myers has more than perceived value after bonus paid. but Boeser/Garland probably less than they are worth, not negative though.

not good D or 3C for our expendable wingers in a losing team.

Its a steep uphill climb to get back to respectability. This team is not respectable right now around the league. Whatever success they achieve is on the back of 3 players, like oilers pre hyman/kane/ekstrom/bouchard/skinner. meaningful improvement down the road is possible but unlikely with the way the team operates. Thats all it is, trying to increase likelihood for sustained success.

Without a solid pipe/ cap flexibility/ draft capital. whatever success we are talking about is like what the jets/preds/islanders/penguins achieved recently. No doubt good enough for some. Its just a game, enjoy the sunshine casual crowd.
Well, at least we have 3 elite players (top 5% in the league)...I'd rather have that ,than a boatload of inferior players in a top prospect pool...I'll even include cap problems as well...(over time, they can be mitigated)

The toughest thing in this league is to actually acquire star players (ask Detroit or LA )...You're not winning a championship without them.

You definitely have a problem confusing quality over quantity...
 
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PuckMunchkin

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You literally posted that as a response to me saying no team has 5 players the quality of Petey and Hughes.

Sorry. Guess I confused you meaning that no team has a core as good as us.

The teams I listed have cores with more and better players.

We lack 2-3 players to go for it.
I've watched a lot of Stamkos, he's the 3rd best forward on his team when he's playing well.
Yeah. I think that is where we are headed with Pettersson.

We need to add our Point and Kucherov since we have pretty much wasted his prime.

Kadri gets 87 points at 32 and that's remotely comparable to Petey? LOL.

No but he is better than Miller at any point in Millers career.
So you want to tank until you think we can be dynastic?
No I want us to build the foundations that allow us to have a long cup window so we have a legit chance to win one.

So you're one of those posters who people parody who literally want to tank until/unless you get a window that most franchises have literally never had?
You are one of the posters here who have been completely broken by Benning.

You've given up on your team winning a cup... That has to be the worst thing Benning did to us.

Its is incredibly hard having discussions on these forums anymore when there are a vocal minority here who are like you. Who have lowered to the bar so far that the conversation breaks down completely. If the goal is not the cup, then yes. Retool is awesome so we don't have to endure being bad for a few years. We can be mediocre forever.


edit. Should we take this to the management thread?
 
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PuckMunchkin

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You're not going to believe this but he has a lower cap hit than Miller too. So I guess it's a slam dunk you would trade Miller for Kadri, better player with a better contract
Sigh...

No he is not the better player today.

He was easily the better player that season Colorado won the cup.


Is my English so bad that people just consistently do not understand what I mean?
 
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Shareefruck

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Sigh...

No he is not the better player today.

He was easily the better player that season Colorado won the cup.


Is my English so bad that people just consistently do not understand what I mean?
I haven't been keeping up with this back and forth, and judging by the posters you're arguing against, I am likely on your side about this, but for the record, there were legitimately a couple instances I noticed where your phrasing/framing didn't properly communicate what you ended up saying that you meant.

Reading-comprehension-wise, your last post did seem to suggest that Kadri right now is better than Miller at any point in his career, and your list of cores did suggest that you thought each of the five in every set were as good as Pettersson/Hughes.

Maybe what you actually meant can be inferred from context clues in the overall conversation, but I can't really blame the confusion, especially in the replies by posters who weren't part of the back and forth.
 
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Gurn

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Sigh...

No he is not the better player today.

He was easily the better player that season Colorado won the cup.


Is my English so bad that people just consistently do not understand what I mean?
PuckMunchkin " I think we have 2, maybe 3 core pieces'

Poster replies " So, you are saying the moon landing was fake?"

WTF.
funny stuff.
Some beeeautiful strawmen in here! :)
 

Nick Lang

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It's hard to trade players in a flat cap environment once the season starts. I think if they want to trade those guys, they need to do it before the draft and definitely before free agent.

This year's FA crop suck ass and contrary to what people think, outside of like 2-3 teams, every single team is trying to improve their team and are looking at ways to improve their roster. You don't think CBJ will be looking everywhere to upgrade especially, they didn't sign Gaudreau so they can tank for the next 2-3 years. Hell even the Ducks splashed in FA last season to try to get better.

Stillman f***ing sucks but I was surprised that he actually had value when none of us thought he had any. So in that sense, they were able to get something of value in the process of dumping cap. Studnicka cost barely anything, as well as kravstov. I don't have much hope for both of them but I hope they surprise us in Oct. Those guys really cost us nothing and we should be making way more of those bets.

Yeah I agree those are the types of moves we should be making. Stillman does blow, I'm pleasantly surprised they turned him into a good prospect. Pretty smart targeting a pick rich team and secondary tier guy like Bloom.

Also couldn't agree more that all teams try to improve each season. It will be an extremely tough job for the management crew. They would probably be better off burning a year than making any wild moves.
 

Gurn

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Mackinnon Rantanen Makar Byram Kadri

Stamkos Hedman Kucherov Point Vasilevski

Crosby Malkin Letang MAF Kessel

Kane Toews Hossa Sharp Seabrook Keith
Marner, Mathews, Tavares, Reilly and Murray

Eichel, Stone, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, Theodore.


Seems quite a few teams have/had more talent, in the core, and more depth than the Canucks.
 
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PuckMunchkin

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I haven't been keeping up with this back and forth, and judging by the posters you're arguing against, I am likely on your side about this, but for the record, there were legitimately a couple instances I noticed where your phrasing/framing didn't properly communicate what you ended up saying that you meant.

Reading-comprehension-wise, your last post did seem to suggest that Kadri right now is better than Miller at any point in his career, and your list of cores did suggest that you thought each of the five in every set were as good as Pettersson/Hughes.

Maybe what you actually meant can be inferred from context clues in the overall conversation, but I can't really blame the confusion, especially in the replies by posters who weren't part of the back and forth.
Thanks.

I need to be more cognisent of my english.
 

Diamonddog01

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Its not facetious at all...our best two prime elite players are only 23-24.

There is enough elite talent..There just isnt enough complimentary talent to support it.

We'll have to agree to disagree...and given the team's track record over the past few years I think the evidence at hand supports my point of view. For the record I think the team needs both a better supporting cast and another elite player - all winning teams have a larger core than the three players posters think constitute our current core.
 

Nick Lang

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We'll have to agree to disagree...and given the team's track record over the past few years I think the evidence at hand supports my point of view. For the record I think the team needs both a better supporting cast and another elite player - all winning teams have a larger core than the three players posters think constitute our current core.

Yeah I can't see this core as being good enough to be consistently competitive. Maybe if Petterson turns it up another two notches along with Hughes and they're getting 150 and 100 points respectively. Our supporting cast, defence, and backup goalie is rubbish as well. It certainly isn't going to be easy and the margins are slim. Hopefully a pick or two turn out for us. Maybe our first this year becomes a core guy in two years. Pick #11, you are our only hope. lol
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Marner, Mathews, Tavares, Reilly and Murray

Eichel, Stone, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, Theodore.


Seems quite a few teams have/had more talent, in the core, and more depth than the Canucks.
Hot take.... SC contenders/dynasty team core roster players are better than the Canucks current roster..

you-dont-say-frowning.gif
 
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