Confirmed with Link: Faulk & 5th to STL for Edmundson, Bokk, 2021 7th

kimzey59

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You're ignoring the fact that Lidstrom was the greatest of his generation, and most likely Top 3 (guaranteed Top 5) of all time as far as defensemen are concerned. While Petro has been a Top 10 D-man through his career, he doesn't even come close to the caliber of player that Lidstrom was.

I don't know that I agree with this.
Lidstrom didn't win his first Norris until the age of 30 and didn't even get in the top 5 until he was 27.

He clearly was not the "greatest of his generation" in his early days.
That was the age of Ray Bourque, Chris Chelios and Brian Leetch.

I'll also note that the first 3 years that Lidstrom did win were years where Chris Pronger was injured, at least 2 of his other Norris' came as the result of vote splitting('05-'06 with Chara/Redden and '06-'07 with Pronger/Neidermayer) and his last one was a "career achievement" gift.

Lidstrom was never the "most talented" D man in the League. Neidermayer and Chara were both better in their specific area's and Pronger was a superior player that just couldn't stay on the ice.
Lidstrom was a great defenseman; but he had a lot of luck involved in getting his hardware. Had Pronger not gotten injured; Lidstrom probably doesn't win a single Norris Trophy, much less 7 of them.
 

BadgersandBlues

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The trade is a massive win.

After reflection, I would say that I find it more difficult to justify the $6.5m on the extension.


He very likely has a full NTC now. The last CBA allowed new trade clauses to kick in as soon as an extension is signed. If Faulk felt getting a full NTC through the first five years of the new deal was important, I expect that they made sure to get it starting right away. If the GM says no to that then that would obviously raise eyebrows.

It is just one of the things that very rarely gets mentioned when extensions are signed.

The more I think about it, the more I think the extension is pretty good.

1. Faulk will be 32 years old when his mNTC kicks in. So he will be 32, with two more years of control at 6.5M, that we can trade to 1/2 the league at that point. (15 team modified no-trade for a 32 team league, 31-15=16) If you think about even a modest increase in cap year to year, it's likely to be around 90M at that point. 6.5 AAV for a 90M cap is pretty easy to move, unless injuries/his game falls waaaaaay off a cliff. Remember, McDonough got moved with a similar contract/age and a much lower cap. Moving on from Faulk shouldn't be a problem if we think he's not doing it for us in 6 years.

2. The cap is not going to be 90M. It's going to be much higher. The NHL's new TV deal should be enormous. It will raise the cap significantly moving forward. Getting as much talent signed beforehand is absolutely the right call. I don't follow the NBA, but when they signed their new TV deal their cap skyrocketed and allowed for the GSW to get Durant. Something similar is going to happen to the NHL most likely.

3. There are two other major events coming up. One is an expansion draft. The other is a new CBA. In both instances, we will be well positioned to make roster changes that we deem necessary, instead of losing a key piece. Want to move on from Faulk? Expose him in the expansion draft. Want to move on from Faulk? Use a compliance buy-out that you know is coming in the next CBA. There are a lot of mechanisms to remove players/salary from our team over the next few years, outside of traditional trades/buyouts. This, combined with the aforementioned increase in cap, makes me feel pretty confident that we won't get screwed long-term by this extension.
 
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medkit

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I don't know that I agree with this.
Lidstrom didn't win his first Norris until the age of 30 and didn't even get in the top 5 until he was 27.

He clearly was not the "greatest of his generation" in his early days.
That was the age of Ray Bourque, Chris Chelios and Brian Leetch.

I'll also note that the first 3 years that Lidstrom did win were years where Chris Pronger was injured, at least 2 of his other Norris' came as the result of vote splitting('05-'06 with Chara/Redden and '06-'07 with Pronger/Neidermayer) and his last one was a "career achievement" gift.

Lidstrom was never the "most talented" D man in the League. Neidermayer and Chara were both better in their specific area's and Pronger was a superior player that just couldn't stay on the ice.
Lidstrom was a great defenseman; but he had a lot of luck involved in getting his hardware. Had Pronger not gotten injured; Lidstrom probably doesn't win a single Norris Trophy, much less 7 of them.

Oh man. You are obviously free to your opinion... but it's wrong :P
 
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Blueston

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I am probably just repeating what has already been said, but oh well. I have no issue with the actual trade. I am not going to sorely miss Bokk or Edmundson. It is the extension. We already have Pietrangelo and Parayko on RD. Why do we need Justin Faulk?
We don't NEED him. But he makes us better. Time will tell on the terms on the extension but we just won Cup and are bringing back better team with likely best defensive group in league. And our GM has shown he is creative at juggling $. So long as Petro and Schenn contracts don't get insane we could be quite good for a while.
 

WeWentBlues

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He very likely has a full NTC now. The last CBA allowed new trade clauses to kick in as soon as an extension is signed. If Faulk felt getting a full NTC through the first five years of the new deal was important, I expect that they made sure to get it starting right away. If the GM says no to that then that would obviously raise eyebrows.

It is just one of the things that very rarely gets mentioned when extensions are signed.
You're probably right. However, it wouldn't surprise me either if the NTC wasn't extended to 19-20. If so, we've seen that Armstrong is the type of GM that wouldn't hesitate to make a deal if that's how the chips fell. See Patrick Berglund.
 

Blueston

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You're probably right. However, it wouldn't surprise me either if the NTC wasn't extended to 19-20. If so, we've seen that Armstrong is the type of GM that wouldn't hesitate to make a deal if that's how the chips fell. See Patrick Berglund.
I think is moot point. If he works out how we think no way he gets traded this year. If it is bad fit and he is 2nd coming of Sean Hill the player likely wouldn't object to deal.
 

EastonBlues22

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I've noticed a couple people saying that if Pietrangelo is indeed leaving, we got Faulk to replace him. That's not the way you should be looking at it. If Pietrangelo is leaving, then Parayko is his replacement. Faulk would be taking over for Parayko's spot on the 2nd pairing.
It's kind of a semantic discussion, but I disagree.

I think Parayko's role, in terms of matchups and usage, would change very little if Pietrangelo leaves. He can't functionally replace Pietrangelo by doing pretty much exactly what he's already doing with Pietrangelo here.

They might try to squeeze another couple of minutes out of Parayko per game, or maybe shade his splits a bit more heavily in terms of zone starts depending on how Faulk does, but for the most part Parayko's role is already fully defined and his usage is already maxed out. Bumping him up one slot on the organizational depth chart isn't really going to have much effect on what he's doing on the ice.

You can only functionally replace a guy you've lost with someone from outside the organization, or by having an internal option take on a significantly different and/or expanded role. Faulk is the obvious candidate for checking one of those boxes.
 

Alklha

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The more I think about it, the more I think the extension is pretty good.

1. Faulk will be 32 years old when his mNTC kicks in. So he will be 32, with two more years of control at 6.5M, that we can trade to 1/2 the league at that point. (15 team modified no-trade for a 32 team league, 31-15=16) If you think about even a modest increase in cap year to year, it's likely to be around 90M at that point. 6.5 AAV for a 90M cap is pretty easy to move, unless injuries/his game falls waaaaaay off a cliff. Remember, McDonough got moved with a similar contract/age and a much lower cap. Moving on from Faulk shouldn't be a problem if we think he's not doing it for us in 6 years.
The issue is about signing a second pairing defenseman until that age. If we think he is going to age very well? Then deal will be fine. However, it tends to be the top players that age the best and there is a significant risk of signing players of that calibre to that kind of deal.


If his skating falls away at 31 then that contract could become unmovable. Look at Shattenkirk, a rough couple of seasons and the Rangers had to buy him out. A higher cap makes it easier to move players, but it doesn’t solve everything.

Also, a clause limiting you to half the teams in the League is extremely restrictive if he does regress. He can put the bad teams on that list and the cap teams can’t afford to take on highly paid, declining players.

We’re reliant on him, at a minimum, maintaining him current level for at least the next 6 years for this deal to be fine. For it to be good then his offensive production will likely need to see an increase. His production in the playoffs last season was certainly promising in that regard. But I don't wanting to be signing 27 year olds to long term extensions and hoping they become better than they have shown.
2. The cap is not going to be 90M. It's going to be much higher. The NHL's new TV deal should be enormous. It will raise the cap significantly moving forward. Getting as much talent signed beforehand is absolutely the right call. I don't follow the NBA, but when they signed their new TV deal their cap skyrocketed and allowed for the GSW to get Durant. Something similar is going to happen to the NHL most likely.
I don’t know a massive amount about that aspect, but I think that people are overestimating the impact of the new US TV deal because the NBA cap went through the roof.

The current deal is $200m a year and the estimates that I’ve seen for the new deal are $400m-$500m a year. If we assume the higher end, that is a $150m a year increase to the players share. Divided by the then 32 teams, that is a cap rise of ~$4.7m.

You then have to factor in the desire of the NHLPA to get escrow under control, so we don’t know what other growth they will want to be projecting into cap calculations.

There is a healthy cap increase coming, but I’ve seen people talking about a $100m cap in a few years, and that would seem optimistic to me. Unless I’ve just overlooked something obvious in those rough calculations.


If we’re looking at something like $90m in a few years, $6.5m is still on the rich side for a middle-pairing guy (unless he’s ~45 points each year).
3. There are two other major events coming up. One is an expansion draft. The other is a new CBA. In both instances, we will be well positioned to make roster changes that we deem necessary, instead of losing a key piece. Want to move on from Faulk? Expose him in the expansion draft. Want to move on from Faulk? Use a compliance buy-out that you know is coming in the next CBA. There are a lot of mechanisms to remove players/salary from our team over the next few years, outside of traditional trades/buyouts. This, combined with the aforementioned increase in cap, makes me feel pretty confident that we won't get screwed long-term by this extension.
I don’t see any possible scenario where there will be compliance buy-outs attached to the next CBA. It doesn’t make sense. They were a necessary evil of the last CBA because of the drop in the salary cap. I find it difficult to see the players and owners share changing from a 50/50 split in the next deal; the next CBA arguments will be about other things (escrow, Olympics, LTIR, etc.).


The expansion draft isn’t really talking about my issue though. I am fine with the trade, I’m not so fine with the extension. If we’re in a position where we’re considering just exposing him in the expansion draft, that will likely suggest that the extension was a mistake.
 
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Brian39

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You're ignoring the fact that Lidstrom was the greatest of his generation, and most likely Top 3 (guaranteed Top 5) of all time as far as defensemen are concerned. While Petro has been a Top 10 D-man through his career, he doesn't even come close to the caliber of player that Lidstrom was.
I see you stopped reading before I specifically included a stat that removed the impact of Lidstrom's multiple Norris run and focused solely on the total number of player who met the criteria. Let me re-write that here, in its own paragraph for you:

"Removing some of the influence Lidstrom has on these numbers, 5 of the last 9 winners have won a Norris while 31 or older."

If you would like to remove Lidstrom from the analysis completely for whatever reason, then 4 of the 8 other guys who have won the Norris since the full season lockout have done so at 31 or older.

But sure, Lidstrom acounted for Burns, Keith, Giordano and Chara winning theirs.
 

Brian39

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I don't know that I agree with this.
Lidstrom didn't win his first Norris until the age of 30 and didn't even get in the top 5 until he was 27.

He clearly was not the "greatest of his generation" in his early days.
That was the age of Ray Bourque, Chris Chelios and Brian Leetch.

I'll also note that the first 3 years that Lidstrom did win were years where Chris Pronger was injured, at least 2 of his other Norris' came as the result of vote splitting('05-'06 with Chara/Redden and '06-'07 with Pronger/Neidermayer) and his last one was a "career achievement" gift.

Lidstrom was never the "most talented" D man in the League. Neidermayer and Chara were both better in their specific area's and Pronger was a superior player that just couldn't stay on the ice.
Lidstrom was a great defenseman; but he had a lot of luck involved in getting his hardware. Had Pronger not gotten injured; Lidstrom probably doesn't win a single Norris Trophy, much less 7 of them.

Lidstrom won 6 Norris trophies in 7 years. Excluding the full season Pronger missed, he averaged 71 games played per season in that stretch. I find it absolutely ludicrous to suggest that Lidstrom may not have won a single Norris trophy had Pronger not gotten injured. Even if we concede the idea that Pronger was a stone cold lock to win the Norris in 2000-2001 had he not missed 30 games, I'm not sure how you explain injuries gifting the 2001/02 Norris to Lidstrom since Pronger played 78 games and finished 5th in Norris voting (Lidstrom also played 78 games BTW).

Your point about vote splitting is pure and complete nonsense. In 2005/06 Lidstrom received 91 1st place votes for the Norris. All other D men in the league received a combined 38 1st place votes. Chara and Redden combined for 5 of those. Only 10 voters didn't include Lidstrom in their top 2. He won the Norris in an absolute landslide that year, winning 89% of the possible voting points. Same thing in 2006/07. Lidstrom received 87 first place votes while the rest of the league combined received 56. That gave Lidstrom 85% of the possible voting points with only 11 voters not putting him in the top 2. Niedermayer got 46 1st place votes while Pronger got just 6. That's absolutely not even close to enough "split votes" to make up the gap. By the way, Lidstrom had a drastically better +/-, defensive points share and overall points share than either that season. He also played about 3 minutes a night more than either of them.

Your opinion is based so far outside reality that it has essentially become you saying "well I personally just like Pronger more than Lidstrom."
 

Blueston

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Lidstrom won 6 Norris trophies in 7 years. Excluding the full season Pronger missed, he averaged 71 games played per season in that stretch. I find it absolutely ludicrous to suggest that Lidstrom may not have won a single Norris trophy had Pronger not gotten injured. Even if we concede the idea that Pronger was a stone cold lock to win the Norris in 2000-2001 had he not missed 30 games, I'm not sure how you explain injuries gifting the 2001/02 Norris to Lidstrom since Pronger played 78 games and finished 5th in Norris voting (Lidstrom also played 78 games BTW).

Your point about vote splitting is pure and complete nonsense. In 2005/06 Lidstrom received 91 1st place votes for the Norris. All other D men in the league received a combined 38 1st place votes. Chara and Redden combined for 5 of those. Only 10 voters didn't include Lidstrom in their top 2. He won the Norris in an absolute landslide that year, winning 89% of the possible voting points. Same thing in 2006/07. Lidstrom received 87 first place votes while the rest of the league combined received 56. That gave Lidstrom 85% of the possible voting points with only 11 voters not putting him in the top 2. Niedermayer got 46 1st place votes while Pronger got just 6. That's absolutely not even close to enough "split votes" to make up the gap. By the way, Lidstrom had a drastically better +/-, defensive points share and overall points share than either that season. He also played about 3 minutes a night more than either of them.

Your opinion is based so far outside reality that it has essentially become you saying "well I personally just like Pronger more than Lidstrom."
Pronger was awesome. One of greatest defensemen ever and should have his number in rafters at Enterprise Center. But Lidstrom was clearly better. There were a couple years where Pronger was better but Lidstrom is the best defenseman of the past 40 years and really was deserving of most of those Norris Trophies (that last 1 was really iffy).
 

simon IC

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I can't seem to get my head around this trade. I should be happy, as we acquired a good defenseman at a really good price, but for some reason I am not. I readily admit, my feelings are borderline irrational, but I just can't shake it. I would even be happier if we traded Bokk and Edmundson just to rent Faulk. It just seems weird to be paying Faulk that kind of money, (with an NTC!), to be a 3rd pairing defenseman for the next few years. It just doesn't make sense to me. I have a bad feeling something I am not going to like is going to transpire. Good thing I am not a psychic. :) I am probably wrong, and I hope I am. Sorry if this post doesn't add much to the discussion. I just wanted to vent.
 

simon IC

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Dough72

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is this the first time in NHL history a team's top4 defencemen all scored 10+ goals?
 

execwrite1

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I can't seem to get my head around this trade. I should be happy, as we acquired a good defenseman at a really good price, but for some reason I am not. I readily admit, my feelings are borderline irrational, but I just can't shake it. I would even be happier if we traded Bokk and Edmundson just to rent Faulk. It just seems weird to be paying Faulk that kind of money, (with an NTC!), to be a 3rd pairing defenseman for the next few years. It just doesn't make sense to me. I have a bad feeling something I am not going to like is going to transpire. Good thing I am not a psychic. :) I am probably wrong, and I hope I am. Sorry if this post doesn't add much to the discussion. I just wanted to vent.


I'm with you. Losing Maroon and Edmundson changes the character and toughness of the team on the ice.

Concerned that part of the motive was moving Edmundson because of his contract hassles. Don't really see where Faulk fits and certainly don't get the length of the contract.
 

Ranksu

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I'm with you. Losing Maroon and Edmundson changes the character and toughness of the team on the ice.

Concerned that part of the motive was moving Edmundson because of his contract hassles. Don't really see where Faulk fits and certainly don't get the length of the contract.
You mean toughness as fighting or hitting game? 'cus to me Edmundson hasn't show fighting skills at all, if I don't remember wrong he hasn't fight in couple season. Maroon does, but to me it wasn't anything what changed game flow. I rather have Blais, Barbashev and Sundqvist who hit opposite team player than so called gritty guys like Maroon who didn't have legs to hit and when he did he was out of position all the time. Edmundson tho did hit, but not that much which doesn't be negative if he's missed.

Generally I see important dmen to be tough front of own net, but Edmundson hasn't show it, he does have skill for it. Jackman was gritty what I liked, but last years he lost so much of leg speed it only hurt our team. We have player like Parayko, Jbo, Bortuzzo (Mikkola) who are good dmen to box out opposite forwards. Bortuzzo will be pressbox guy, but to me he's enough of gritty what we lack of in your eyes.

Maroon and Edmundson aren't players who would get icetime in Blues this coming season. Army did great job to adress it and let Maroon walk and trade Edmundson out.
 
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