Speculation: Fantasy GM and Rumor Roundup Thread | "Trader Jim" gearing up for TDL

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The "why bother" approach is the exact laziness that has ruined this franchise over the last 7 or 8 years. The return - if he's moved - will be better than a 4th.

Has nothing to do with that..Realistically, he 's not going to get higher than a 3rd (even at the TDL)..When you move him for a pick that wont move the needle, you then have get another Luke Schenn..At that price point, you'll probably get a D man, who is a significant downgrade (in leadership ,toughness and ability), and then have to find someone to play with Hughes (which is no easy task).

In this particular instance, unless its a decent pick..I'd keep him.

 

[Gstank]

I will never get the Pettersson and Mackinnion comparsions, they are literally the exact opposite type of players

Pettersson
6'2 177

Best attributes
Shot
Hockey IQ

Play style
High skill, fancy stickhandling

Toolbox
Very little physical tools, which is made up by his extremely high hockey IQ

Dedication to the game
Questionable at time

Mackinnion
6 200LB

Best hockey attributes
Speed
Balance
Playmaking

Play style
Bull in a china shop

Toolbox
Has all the tools you look for in a Franchise player

Dedication to the game
Almost over the top to the point where it would be annoying

Even with how the broke into the league they are the opposite. Mackinnon wasnt setting the league on fire, Pettersson was taking the league by storm.

Its such a bad comparsion that it shouldnt even be brought up

 

[MS]

Has nothing to do with that..Realistically, he 's not going to get higher than a 3rd (even at the TDL)..When you move him for a pick that wont move the needle, you then have get another Luke Schenn..At that price point, you'll probably get a D man, who is a significant downgrade (in leadership ,toughness and ability), and then have to find someone to play with Hughes (which is no easy task).

In this particular instance, unless its a decent pick..I'd keep him.

Agreed.

People are playing video games and just want to trade everyone.

Even if you're doing a re-tool, you still need to retain a structure. The team is trying to create a new identity and you need to keep some veterans that fit that identity. You also had Quinn Hughes completely lose the plot last season when he didn't have a reliable partner and putting Hughes (our most important position player) in a position to succeed is probably something that people should find important.

The insanity of Benning wasn't the notion that having some quality veteran mentors was important, it was the assets traded for and contracts given to those depth veterans.

There is no need to trade Schenn. He isn't a pending UFA. We'll still get a decent pick for him next year (or if not, it means he's probably helped us to sit in a playoff spot).

 

[ziploc]

You don’t move Schenn unless the return is ridiculous.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

I mean what other bets do we have?

There aren't. What's happened with Elias Pettersson is essentially unprecedented. From being an elite offensive producer in Years 1 and 2 of his career to becoming Sven Baertschi in Years 3 and 4. I've never seen anything like it, and it's difficult to project where things will go from here.

 

[m9]

Has nothing to do with that..Realistically, he 's not going to get higher than a 3rd (even at the TDL)..When you move him for a pick that wont move the needle, you then have get another Luke Schenn..At that price point, you'll probably get a D man, who is a significant downgrade (in leadership ,toughness and ability), and then have to find someone to play with Hughes (which is no easy task).

In this particular instance, unless its a decent pick..I'd keep him.

Agreed.

People are playing video games and just want to trade everyone.

Even if you're doing a re-tool, you still need to retain a structure. The team is trying to create a new identity and you need to keep some veterans that fit that identity. You also had Quinn Hughes completely lose the plot last season when he didn't have a reliable partner and putting Hughes (our most important position player) in a position to succeed is probably something that people should find important.

The insanity of Benning wasn't the notion that having some quality veteran mentors was important, it was the assets traded for and contracts given to those depth veterans.

There is no need to trade Schenn. He isn't a pending UFA. We'll still get a decent pick for him next year (or if not, it means he's probably helped us to sit in a playoff spot).

I see a glut of third-pairing RHD on this roster and these players will always have value at the trade deadline if you time it right based on their contract. I would extract some value now because if you are planning to improve the defense over the next couple of years you don't need them all and you desperately need picks/prospects.

Obviously, trading Hamonic or Poolman would be preferred. Unfortunately I see both as negative assets right now so that is unlikely.

Burroughs would be interesting to move but he has local ties, is younger than Schenn, and is now hurt.

So that goes back to Schenn being the best trade option. There's no guarantee he plays this well next year, so banking on a future pick isn't really correct.

 

[me2]

are you sure about this? what moves has he done that shows this? we need to see what he does or doesn't do to say that.

The fact he hasn't made any moves is a good thing. Benning would have panicked and tried to trade his way out of this mess, and made the hole deeper. JR is happy to let the current mess unfold, he's aware it can't be quick fixed.

 

[MS]

I see a glut of third-pairing RHD on this roster and these players will always have value at the trade deadline if you time it right based on their contract. I would extract some value now because if you are planning to improve the defense over the next couple of years you don't need them all and you desperately need picks/prospects.

Obviously, trading Hamonic or Poolman would be preferred. Unfortunately I see both as negative assets right now so that is unlikely.

Burroughs would be interesting to move but he has local ties, is younger than Schenn, and is now hurt.

So that goes back to Schenn being the best trade option. There's no guarantee he plays this well next year, so banking on a future pick isn't really correct.

Hamonic is the obvious guy to move, with last summer's issues presumably behind him. If he's playing he should be movable on that contract. Dunno if you can do anything with Poolman.

I'm also not as locked into sides as others.

Hughes is hugely important. We can't keep trading his preferred partner and then saddling him with crap or forcing him into the doesn't-work pairing with Myers.

 

[mriswith]

Pettersson's a unique case because the eye test has changed so dramatically with him whereas for a long time the stats didn't change that much.

This year is an anomaly production wise. His even strength production was almost identical for his first three years. His even strength production last year was on par with his first two years and Mackinnon fails as a comparison in this regard because Mackinnon never scored at the rate Pettersson did in any of Pettersson's previous seasons, including Mackinnon's rookie season, until he finally exploded.

It's the eye test where Pettersson fails. First half of year one he played with fire and with almost reckless abandon and was dazzling to watch. The recklessness ended after the Kotka incident.

Year two he started off poorly, both because his game had changed and also because he had to adapt to being the guy every other team game planned around. He'd get the puck and there'd instantly be two guys on him. Eventually he figured out how to play around this and Miller took full advantage of the extra ice. He still played with fire and took every loss of possession personally, backchecking like a demon and playing with a high motor despite not going as hard to the dirty areas or pushing that extra 10% to make plays.

This was his best season. He looked like he had the potential to develop into a selke contender and would score PPG+ for the next decade.

Year three he looked disinterested and low motor but still put up points despite failing the eye test.

And now this year he's looked like garbage and produced like garbage.

I think he needs a sports psychologist.

At any rate, after thinking long and hard about it, here's how I fall on the Canucks roster detonation.

Sell: Miller, Horvat, Motte, Myers (retain on Myers if you have to - Myers with a $4M cap hit, eg, will have real value). All for picks/prospects. Don't accept any long-term money back (this season is okay, but past that, no).
Keep: Hughes, Pettersson, Garland, Hoglander, Podkolzin, Highmore, Lammikko, Burroughs, Schenn.
Dump: Hamonic, Pearson, Dickinson (if you can't find takers, then AHL. Yes, even Pearson - Canucks can't waste roster spots on low-ceiling players).

Boeser - if you can get him around ~$6M (either on a show-me deal, or something with term) keep him, otherwise sell.
OEL - we're stuck with him
Poolman - contract is probably untradeable, and he does have some value as a bottom pair PK specialist. don't mind keeping him around.

For the rest of this season, give long looks to Lockwood, Rathbone, and Martin. I'd also see what, if anything, Rempal/Dries/Di Giuseppe could do at the NHL leve. I'd also test how OEL and Hughes do playing the right side. If our off season RHD problem can become an off season LHD problem, that makes life a LOT easier. Also sign some European FAs and give them ice time (from the Olympics, I liked Petr Cehlarik's and Corban Knight's games a lot).

I'd try to sign Highmore, Lammikko, and Burroughs and to 3-year extensions between $1M and $1.5M, bargain contracts if they keep developing.

Next season:

xxx-Petey-xxx/Boeser
xxx-xxx-Garland
Podkolzin-xxx-Hoglander
Highmore-Lammikko-xxx

Hughes-yyyy
OEL-yyyy
Burroughs-Schenn
Rathbone-Poolman

Next season, every single open roster spot needs to be filled by young players with upsde, or a quality veteran that's a cap casualty on a good team (Eg, Kerfoot in TO might be a decent Horvat replacement for us), or a show-me free agent (look for a lot of unqualified RFAs to sign deals like these - in particular I've got my eye on Ethan Bear and Kailer Yamamoto).

The only type of UFA I would go for term for would a young-ish 3C type that could kill penalties (Andrew Copp, Nick Paul, etc). Otherwise don't give anyone term.

And of course it won't happen, but assuming we accumulate some picks I would really look at tendering some RFA offer-sheets. Would not mind a $4M flyer on Tim Liljegren (2nd round pick) or a $2M on Mathieu Joseph (3rd round pick).

Nailed it. My plan would be identical, except I'd try to extend Motte to a cheap 3 year deal and trade him next year, and I think it might be possible to dump OEL with 1-2 mil retention.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

I see a glut of third-pairing RHD on this roster and these players will always have value at the trade deadline if you time it right based on their contract. I would extract some value now because if you are planning to improve the defense over the next couple of years you don't need them all and you desperately need picks/prospects.

Obviously, trading Hamonic or Poolman would be preferred. Unfortunately I see both as negative assets right now so that is unlikely.

Burroughs would be interesting to move but he has local ties, is younger than Schenn, and is now hurt.

So that goes back to Schenn being the best trade option. There's no guarantee he plays this well next year, so banking on a future pick isn't really correct.

Burroughs has been playing on the left a bunch this season, exclusively so in recent weeks. He's done fine.

Don't get so locked into left side/right side D. That was Travis Green's thing.

Actually one thing I'd like to see to close out the season is Hughes and OEL play on the right for a stretch of games. There's reason to think both there games would translate there, and it makes the off-season a lot easier if they can.

 

[arttk]

There aren't. What's happened with Elias Pettersson is essentially unprecedented. From being an elite offensive producer in Years 1 and 2 of his career to becoming Sven Baertschi in Years 3 and 4. I've never seen anything like it, and it's difficult to project where things will go from here.

Agreed and we don’t really have that many options. Like the odds of Petey hitting that potential > us getting a #1C by rebuilding at least in the shorter term. If Petey comes back next season with another 60ish pt season then we will probably need to tank again.

 

[MS]

Like, for the new regime the first thing they have to do is come in here and build a new identity for this slow, soft team. We need to get faster, more competitive, harder to play against. And you have to figure out which guys can fit that sort of team.

And to me, that list is :

JT Miller (80% of the time)
Tyler Motte
Matthew Highmore
Juho Lammikko
Vasili Podkolzin
Nils Hoglander
Quinn Hughes
Luke Schenn

Those are the guys who if you dropped them into a Vegas or Colorado or Tampa would fit in and succeed (or in the case of Podkolzin and Hoglander, inconsistently show those traits as young guys but can be expected to be those types of players).

And that makes it a hell of a lot harder to move any of the guys on that list, unless you get a major overpayment. And that's the problem they're having with JT Miller as well.

It would be a hell of a thing to trade away like half the list of guys who fit where you want to go starting next year but get stuck keeping a pile of guys who represent the shit team this has been in the past. And they want to do a re-tool, not a rebuild.

 

[arttk]

I will never get the Pettersson and Mackinnion comparsions, they are literally the exact opposite type of players

Pettersson
6'2 177

Best attributes
Shot
Hockey IQ

Play style
High skill, fancy stickhandling

Toolbox
Very little physical tools, which is made up by his extremely high hockey IQ

Dedication to the game
Questionable at time

Mackinnion
6 200LB

Best hockey attributes
Speed
Balance
Playmaking

Play style
Bull in a china shop

Toolbox
Has all the tools you look for in a Franchise player

Dedication to the game
Almost over the top to the point where it would be annoying

Even with how the broke into the league they are the opposite. Mackinnon wasnt setting the league on fire, Pettersson was taking the league by storm.

Its such a bad comparsion that it shouldnt even be brought up

impact not style

 

[AppleHoneySauce]

So are we keeping Schenn till hes 40? Cause Hughes is going to need to learn how to play with someone else eventually. You also cannot have Schenn in your top 2 while hughes needs to be.

Hamonic is the obvious guy to move, with last summer's issues presumably behind him. If he's playing he should be movable on that contract. Dunno if you can do anything with Poolman.

He is not moveable with that contract. 3mil for 1 more year after this one for a glorified 7th Dman. Schenn is probably the only Dman with any value besides hughes.

 

[m9]

Hamonic is the obvious guy to move, with last summer's issues presumably behind him. If he's playing he should be movable on that contract. Dunno if you can do anything with Poolman.

I'm also not as locked into sides as others.

Hughes is hugely important. We can't keep trading his preferred partner and then saddling him with crap or forcing him into the doesn't-work pairing with Myers.

Would love to move Hamonic, but then you're likely having to add an asset to move on instead of getting one back for Schenn.

Your personal opinion on "sides" isn't really relevant to how the team will approach it, though. At this point, they've played a RH guy on the left simply because the previous inept GM somehow built an all-in team with only two NHL LHD. We'll see if it's something they move forward with - not sure what past Bruce/JR teams show from that standpoint.

I agree on Hughes, but Hamonic was mostly fine there last year. I don't think cashing in Schenn this year and moving Hamonic into that role temporarily is the end of the world.. especially if that gives Hamonic enough of a bump to make his contract moveable this offseason.

 

[Dab]

Would love to move Hamonic, but then you're likely having to add an asset to move on instead of getting one back for Schenn.

Your personal opinion on "sides" isn't really relevant to how the team will approach it, though. At this point, they've played a RH guy on the left simply because the previous inept GM somehow built an all-in team with only two NHL LHD. We'll see if it's something they move forward with - not sure what past Bruce/JR teams show from that standpoint.

I agree on Hughes, but Hamonic was mostly fine there last year. I don't think cashing in Schenn this year and moving Hamonic into that role temporarily is the end of the world.. especially if that gives Hamonic enough of a bump to make his contract moveable this offseason.

Had enough of the Hamonic circus. Time to move on.

 

[Peen]

You don’t need to keep a 32 year old Luke Schenn. If someone offers you something of significance that can buy you a Luke Schenn or better when you’re actually entering a competitive window or close to it, you make that trade 10/10 times.

 

[m9]

Burroughs has been playing on the left a bunch this season, exclusively so in recent weeks. He's done fine.

Don't get so locked into left side/right side D. That was Travis Green's thing.

Actually one thing I'd like to see to close out the season is Hughes and OEL play on the right for a stretch of games. There's reason to think both there games would translate there, and it makes the off-season a lot easier if they can.

Sides isn't a Green thing, it's all over hockey and always will be. There are always a few teams that do it differently. As mentioned above, I have no idea if BB/JR have a history of playing guys on their off-sides regularly. If they do then that gives us some flexibility for sure. I wouldn't use this stretch where they have no other LHD options as the barometer, though. In the SJ game they were rolling with Myers/Hamonic at the end with predictable results.

As for moving Hughes/OEL.. it would depend on what they're trying to accomplish. If it's in conjunction with seeing Rathbone, then great.

 

[Canucker]

So are we keeping Schenn till hes 40? Cause Hughes is going to need to learn how to play with someone else eventually. You also cannot have Schenn in your top 2 while hughes needs to be.


He is not moveable with that contract. 3mil for 1 more year after this one for a glorified 7th Dman. Schenn is probably the only Dman with any value besides hughes.

We have Schenn for one more year at a fantastic value, it removes any notion that we HAVE to find a partner for him right away. Its a reasonably successful pairing at the moment...personally I'd rather find someone who will compliment OEL since he's going to be here for next to eternity.

 

[m9]

Had enough of the Hamonic circus. Time to move on.

Of course - everyone with a brain on this board wants to move on from Hamonic. Unfortunately right now he's a negative contract so we are adding to dump him, taking a bad contract back, or trying to to rehab him to the point where a team bites. I'd like to try the rehab option before we settle for another one.

 

[Dab]

If you can trade Schenn for a 2nd rounder or a decent prospect then you do it. This team literally has 4 bottom-pairing RHD, so just punt as many as you can for assets.

They need to just start accumulating picks & prospects. The team has a draft pick deficit and almost nothing coming up in the system. Any 2022 2nd rounder you trade for will immediately be a top5 prospect in this system the second they are drafted and that's an awful place for a bad team like this to be in.

While I agree we can’t be turning down good offers for anyone that isn’t EP40, Hughes and Demko, I can’t imagine how soft this team (franchise) would be without Schenn. It’s fricken sad.

 

[Dab]

Of course - everyone with a brain on this board wants to move on from Hamonic. Unfortunately right now he's a negative contract so we are adding to dump him, taking a bad contract back, or trying to to rehab him to the point where a team bites. I'd like to try the rehab option before we settle for another one.

Completely unsure about this given how crazy the market for defencemen gets at deadline and in the summer.

 

[MS]

Would love to move Hamonic, but then you're likely having to add an asset to move on instead of getting one back for Schenn.

Your personal opinion on "sides" isn't really relevant to how the team will approach it, though. At this point, they've played a RH guy on the left simply because the previous inept GM somehow built an all-in team with only two NHL LHD. We'll see if it's something they move forward with - not sure what past Bruce/JR teams show from that standpoint.

I agree on Hughes, but Hamonic was mostly fine there last year. I don't think cashing in Schenn this year and moving Hamonic into that role temporarily is the end of the world.. especially if that gives Hamonic enough of a bump to make his contract moveable this offseason.

Teams like Colorado and Florida are hugely stacked toward one side on their bluelines and do just fine.

I don't really care about draft picks (especially mid-late rounders) as much as most here.

These guys need to come in and build the team they want with the identity they want. I'm totally fine spending a few picks to get rid of Jim Benning's junk and not taking a pick or two in order to keep one or two moveable guys who fit where the team is going.

I find it strange when people are more concerned about getting surplus 4th round picks over the actual team on the actual ice. Again, we aren't playing a video game. We're trying to re-profile this team on the ice with a new identity and build in a positive direction. Keep the guys you believe in who fit the identity and culture you're trying to build, unless you get an offer you can't say no to.

 

[Dab]

Teams like Colorado and Florida are hugely stacked toward one side on their bluelines and do just fine.

I don't really care about draft picks (especially mid-late rounders) as much as most here.

These guys need to come in and build the team they want with the identity they want. I'm totally fine spending a few picks to get rid of Jim Benning's junk and not taking a pick or two in order to keep one or two moveable guys who fit where the team is going.

I find it strange when people are more concerned about getting surplus 4th round picks over the actual team on the actual ice. Again, we aren't playing a video game. We're trying to re-profile this team on the ice with a new identity and build in a positive direction. Keep the guys you believe in who fit the identity and culture you're trying to build, unless you get an offer you can't say no to.

Ya to me cap space and a clean slate and new identity is more important than a 4th. I need a drink after thinking about this.

 

[Melvin]

I'm with MS when it comes to Schenn. You're not getting a 2nd for him or something. Teams know who he is. He's signed for next year at minimum salary and has been a good fit. Trading him for a 4th or something does literally nothing to help us.

Teams aren't so dumb that they're suddenly going to give up a top prospect or something for guys who had 0 value 6 months ago.

I'm 50/50 on Motte. Like I wouldn't want Benning to sign him to an extension but if he can be locked in at a reasonable rate, it might make sense.