Fan Patience and Rebuilding

[NonisMustGo*]

This is my first post here and excuse my venting. Lately Rogers outlets have been peddling the idea that a complete rebuild is not necessary. They have been pointing towards the Edmonton Oilers as what could potentially happen. This mentality is simply insane to me. The difference between the Oilers and Leafs is that at least they have had the opportunity to put themselves into a position to grab a blue chip prospect. This management, going back to JFJ, has squandered numerous first round picks, while other managers are making equivalent deals for less resources. Raycroft for Rask? A 1st and 2nd for Toskala the year after? Are you kidding me? Nonis doesn't make flashy and ultimately stupid deals like JFJ or Burke, but he makes small insignificant trades that gradually sap at our minor league depth and potential prospect pool. The Frattin deals is a perfect example.

Had the Leafs just stood pat in those years where we squandered our future for third liners and back up goalies, they would have had what they are currently lacking, an elite first line center, an elite goalie, and a potential Norris candidate. Leaf fans have contributed to the Leafs becoming the richest team in the league. Part of this money is provided to other teams that directly compete with the Leafs. Some of these teams have players on their rosters we can only dream about. In the last ten years we have had to put up with John Pohl, Andy Woznieski, Aki Berg, Nic Hagman, JS Aubin, Harold Druken, and a whole host of other bozos with the hope the Leafs will simply make it to the first round of the playoffs. The fans are clearly not impatient, they are angry customers. Leafs need to stop selling hope, develop a clear plan, and present it to their fans. This is the first years of the Kessel and Phaneuf deals, imagine what years three and four will be like?

Click to read more...

 

[Erdinger]

The fans are clearly not impatient, they are angry customers. Leafs need to stop selling hope, develop a clear plan, and present it to their fans.

Angry fans or not the most financially succesful NHL franchise does not really need to sell hope. They can sell as many overpriced seats,private boxes,food concessions,beers,parking spaces etc as they can offer. Hope is just lip service.

 

[Al14]

This is my first post here and excuse my venting. Lately Rogers outlets have been peddling the idea that a complete rebuild is not necessary. They have been pointing towards the Edmonton Oilers as what could potentially happen. This mentality is simply insane to me. The difference between the Oilers and Leafs is that at least they have had the opportunity to put themselves into a position to grab a blue chip prospect. This management, going back to JFJ, has squandered numerous first round picks, while other managers are making equivalent deals for less resources. Raycroft for Rask? A 1st and 2nd for Toskala the year after? Are you kidding me? Nonis doesn't make flashy and ultimately stupid deals like JFJ or Burke, but he makes small insignificant trades that gradually sap at our minor league depth and potential prospect pool. The Frattin deals is a perfect example.

Had the Leafs just stood pat in those years where we squandered our future for third liners and back up goalies, they would have had what they are currently lacking, an elite first line center, an elite goalie, and a potential Norris candidate. Leaf fans have contributed to the Leafs becoming the richest team in the league. Part of this money is provided to other teams that directly compete with the Leafs. Some of these teams have players on their rosters we can only dream about. In the last ten years we have had to put up with John Pohl, Andy Woznieski, Aki Berg, Nic Hagman, JS Aubin, Harold Druken, and a whole host of other bozos with the hope the Leafs will simply make it to the first round of the playoffs. The fans are clearly not impatient, they are angry customers. Leafs need to stop selling hope, develop a clear plan, and present it to their fans. This is the first years of the Kessel and Phaneuf deals, imagine what years three and four will be like?

Exactly, we're pathetic now, we'll be even more pathetic as time goes by with Kessel and Phaneuf as the cornerstone pieces!

 

[Stephen]

Rogers and Bell are bloated corporate entities that dominate and prey on a fairly complacent and captive Canadian consumer culture. Any notion of foresight and long term planning and ingenuity has no place in this landscape. So long as they can supply a barely acceptable NHL product night after night, winter after winter and have some known names to sell jerseys of at pro shop, they've basically fulfilled their corporate mission.

It's just a conservative bean counting culture running this franchise into the ground. Unless they tear it down and start over from the foundations and put real hockey people in charge, there's just no real hope for the Leafs. It may not be in the next five years or even ten, but this shortsighted brand mismanagement will one day cause irreparable damage to the brand and the financial success they enjoy today will dry up.

 

[Warden of the North]

Rogers and Bell are bloated corporate entities that dominate and prey on a fairly complacent and captive Canadian consumer culture. Any notion of foresight and long term planning and ingenuity has no place in this landscape. So long as they can supply a barely acceptable NHL product night after night, winter after winter and have some known names to sell jerseys of at pro shop, they've basically fulfilled their corporate mission.

It's just a conservative bean counting culture running this franchise into the ground. Unless they tear it down and start over from the foundations and put real hockey people in charge, there's just no real hope for the Leafs. It may not be in the next five years or even ten, but this shortsighted brand mismanagement will one day cause irreparable damage to the brand and the financial success they enjoy today will dry up.

I dont believe this is true any more. IMO those days ended when Burke took over. The resulting 7 years has been management trying to dig out of that hole created by ownership, particularly in the JFJ era.

No one complained during Quinn's days when we were going to conference finals. We were a fringe Cup contender in those days. Trading young assets worked for building a playoff team. Then the lockout happened.

 

[p.l.f.]

A rebuild makes sense to most fans
Maybe not the over 70 club

 

[Erdinger]

A rebuild makes sense to most fans
Maybe not the over 70 club

Some of the most anti rebuild group seem to be fans whom have never seen a Leafs playoff game. Go figure.

 

[Stephen]

I dont believe this is true any more. IMO those days ended when Burke took over. The resulting 7 years has been management trying to dig out of that hole created by ownership, particularly in the JFJ era.

No one complained during Quinn's days when we were going to conference finals. We were a fringe Cup contender in those days. Trading young assets worked for building a playoff team. Then the lockout happened.

In the sense that the Leafs NEVER go with conventional hockey wisdom and try to improvise their own way. It's like there's a couple of cronies in the boardroom who just ask for silly things year after year.

This city would be the perfect place for a rebuild. The crowds won't stay away and you'd get a lot of goodwill icing a team full of promising, hardworking players. I don't see any ill will towards a Morgan Rielly, because the hostility goes towards overpaid veterans who underperform.

 

[Gallagbi]

Some of the most anti rebuild group seem to be fans whom have never seen a Leafs playoff game. Go figure.

People who weren't fans in the 12-13 season?

 

[Erdinger]

People who weren't fans in the 12-13 season?

Okay you got me. I meant even the Quinn teams.

 

[dimi78]

A rebuild makes sense to most fans
Maybe not the over 70 club

A proper rebuild involves valuing good vets as part of the mix as much as young talent you get from the draft or in trades. The trick is to not have vets a head of the young player your looking to develop as a core player. Instead have good quality vets as linemates to said young guy(s) to play with them...

Example When Philly committed to Giroux they went and got Jagr to play with him and Hartnell on the top line. That's how you develop. It's not a good thing to hoard picks and youth and think your heading in the right direction.

We continually suffer from mismanagement in player development at the NHL level. That changed when that guy people think is going to get fired Nonis became in charge and that's why he's not going anywhere. This guy would rather get fired than give up young guys for vets on there last leg as he was in Vancouver when he wouldn't trade a young Kessler, Schnieder and a 1st for Brad Richards.

The final piece to actually start a proper rebuild starts with the right coach... Carlyle was a disaster and detrimental toward player development. Heck he said it himself why he wasn't the right guy when he said the NHL isn't a development league and he coached that way to boot

I might be in the minority but I wont be shocked to see Horachek stay as the official new head coach. I like what both I see in terms of the delivery of his message and the team game of 5-5-5 hockey. That he's a positive guy is something that can't be understated as head coach for this market of negative scrutiny constant picking apart all facets of the organization. The head coach almost has to be a positive guy.They get enough of the negativity elsewhere win or lose in Toronto.

 

[Erdinger]

I hope you are right

 

[hfman]

Rogers and Bell are bloated corporate entities that dominate and prey on a fairly complacent and captive Canadian consumer culture. Any notion of foresight and long term planning and ingenuity has no place in this landscape. So long as they can supply a barely acceptable NHL product night after night, winter after winter and have some known names to sell jerseys of at pro shop, they've basically fulfilled their corporate mission.

It's just a conservative bean counting culture running this franchise into the ground. Unless they tear it down and start over from the foundations and put real hockey people in charge, there's just no real hope for the Leafs. It may not be in the next five years or even ten, but this shortsighted brand mismanagement will one day cause irreparable damage to the brand and the financial success they enjoy today will dry up.

You guys are making excellent points. Hockey's a business first and foremost. Second, it's a game. That's the sad reality.

Imagine you had your own business. You make beachballs. You sell them in various retail stores in Ontario. Problem is, your beachballs are made cheaply and you know they suck. They burst too easy. But you put them on the shelves anyway. And guess what. They're selling like hotcakes. You can't keep them on the shelves! Soon, you're making millions of dollars selling these beachballs that you know are complete garbage in terms of quality. So you ask yourself, why are these things selling? They're garbage!! Cheap crap made in China.. but oh well, can't complain! I'm making millions... better stick to my formula here, don't mess with it!!

So. One day you think about improving the quality of your beachballs. Maybe order them from a different manufacturer or something. But then you re-think it. Why should I change the beachballs? Why risk it? If I change the look/quality of these beachballs, then maybe they wouldn't sell as well? Maybe people WANT these crappy beachballs? What incentive do I have to change the sh-t beachballs I'm selling now... they're selling out, I'm rich - so hell no, there's no way I'm going to "mess with success". I'm gonna keep selling these garbage beachballs until they stop selling. And when/IF they stop selling - THEN I'll consider improving the quality of my beachballs. Because then desparation will set in, so I'll be forced to make some changes in order to keep my beachballs selling. But there's no reason to do so UNTIL they stop selling. So as of today, so long as my beachballs continue to sell even though they're crap - I will not change a thing, because I don't need to. And to be honest it would be stupid to change ANYTHING - I'm running a winning formula here, why the hell should I go and change it? And risk f-ing the whole thing up? They're selling by the millions - KEEP MY GAME PLAN THE WAY IT IS AND I"LL CONTINUE TO BE RICH!!! Even to me it's boggles my mind, that millions of people are buying these cheap, useless beachballs - but hey, no complaints here!! Keep 'em coming

Sound familiar?

 

[Beleafer19]

You guys are making excellent points. Hockey's a business first and foremost. Second, it's a game. That's the sad reality.

Imagine you had your own business. You make beachballs. You sell them in various retail stores in Ontario. Problem is, your beachballs are made cheaply and you know they suck. They burst too easy. But you put them on the shelves anyway. And guess what. They're selling like hotcakes. You can't keep them on the shelves! Soon, you're making millions of dollars selling these beachballs that you know are complete garbage in terms of quality. So you ask yourself, why are these things selling? They're garbage!! Cheap crap made in China.. but oh well, can't complain! I'm making millions... better stick to my formula here, don't mess with it!!

So. One day you think about improving the quality of your beachballs. Maybe order them from a different manufacturer or something. But then you re-think it. Why should I change the beachballs? Why risk it? If I change the look/quality of these beachballs, then maybe they wouldn't sell as well? Maybe people WANT these crappy beachballs? What incentive do I have to change the sh-t beachballs I'm selling now... they're selling out, I'm rich - so hell no, there's no way I'm going to "mess with success". I'm gonna keep selling these garbage beachballs until they stop selling. And when/IF they stop selling - THEN I'll consider improving the quality of my beachballs. Because then desparation will set in, so I'll be forced to make some changes in order to keep my beachballs selling. But there's no reason to do so UNTIL they stop selling. So as of today, so long as my beachballs continue to sell even though they're crap - I will not change a thing, because I don't need to. And to be honest it would be stupid to change ANYTHING - I'm running a winning formula here, why the hell should I go and change it? And risk f-ing the whole thing up? They're selling by the millions - KEEP MY GAME PLAN THE WAY IT IS AND I"LL CONTINUE TO BE RICH!!! Even to me it's boggles my mind, that millions of people are buying these cheap, useless beachballs - but hey, no complaints here!! Keep 'em coming

Sound familiar?

Kessel and company can't play in the league forever, eventually the players will have to change. It's not the players that make the Leafs a successful business, this is a hockey market, that's what makes it successful. We just want to see different players at this point this group is going no where.

 

[buttman*]

This is my first post here and excuse my venting. Lately Rogers outlets have been peddling the idea that a complete rebuild is not necessary. They have been pointing towards the Edmonton Oilers as what could potentially happen. This mentality is simply insane to me. The difference between the Oilers and Leafs is that at least they have had the opportunity to put themselves into a position to grab a blue chip prospect. This management, going back to JFJ, has squandered numerous first round picks, while other managers are making equivalent deals for less resources. Raycroft for Rask? A 1st and 2nd for Toskala the year after? Are you kidding me? Nonis doesn't make flashy and ultimately stupid deals like JFJ or Burke, but he makes small insignificant trades that gradually sap at our minor league depth and potential prospect pool. The Frattin deals is a perfect example.

Had the Leafs just stood pat in those years where we squandered our future for third liners and back up goalies, they would have had what they are currently lacking, an elite first line center, an elite goalie, and a potential Norris candidate. Leaf fans have contributed to the Leafs becoming the richest team in the league. Part of this money is provided to other teams that directly compete with the Leafs. Some of these teams have players on their rosters we can only dream about. In the last ten years we have had to put up with John Pohl, Andy Woznieski, Aki Berg, Nic Hagman, JS Aubin, Harold Druken, and a whole host of other bozos with the hope the Leafs will simply make it to the first round of the playoffs. The fans are clearly not impatient, they are angry customers. Leafs need to stop selling hope, develop a clear plan, and present it to their fans. This is the first years of the Kessel and Phaneuf deals, imagine what years three and four will be like?

Burke already ****ed it up.

Pretending it could be like the Oilers -- means you'd **** it up again. The Oiler's management is incompetent and I guess if you are comparing yourself to them -- you are too.

Nonis has been here a long time when you count his tenure with Burke. He's failed to help this team significantly in that time. He needs to go.

 

[Stephen]

Burke already ****ed it up.

Pretending it could be like the Oilers -- means you'd **** it up again. The Oiler's management is incompetent and I guess if you are comparing yourself to them -- you are too.

Nonis has been here a long time when you count his tenure with Burke. He's failed to help this team significantly in that time. He needs to go.

When you look at up and coming teams, many of them have put in a couple of tank years.

Tampa Bay, the Islanders, even Florida, Colorado last year. These teams are reaping the draft and tank and development rewards and look poised to be joining the Kings, Hawks, etc.

 

[Ash35]

To pretend Edmonton failed in their rebuild because they picked the wrong players is ridiculous. Each and every top pick they man would of been made by 29 other teams at that time. Leafs fans were 100% on board when they tried to rebuild 7 years ago but Burke rushed it when he should of been patient. The thought of another 7 year rebuild is hard to stomach when there isn't any guarantees. Saying that Seguin isn't the worrior type I want. He's choked every playoff year so far. Who says we would of finished 2nd last anyway if the Kessel deal wasn't made?

 

[CalgaryLeaf*]

Rogers and Bell are bloated corporate entities that dominate and prey on a fairly complacent and captive Canadian consumer culture. Any notion of foresight and long term planning and ingenuity has no place in this landscape. So long as they can supply a barely acceptable NHL product night after night, winter after winter and have some known names to sell jerseys of at pro shop, they've basically fulfilled their corporate mission.

It's just a conservative bean counting culture running this franchise into the ground. Unless they tear it down and start over from the foundations and put real hockey people in charge, there's just no real hope for the Leafs. It may not be in the next five years or even ten, but this shortsighted brand mismanagement will one day cause irreparable damage to the brand and the financial success they enjoy today will dry up.

A major major issue is that our OWNER(S) sell hockey to the Canadian TV audience.A drop in ratings cost them money...Toronto is the biggest TV market in the country...The Leafs also sell nationally.

We are F'd!

 

[Al14]

Some of the most anti rebuild group seem to be fans whom have never seen a Leafs playoff game. Go figure.

You mean there's fans that failed to watch that 7 game playoff series against the Bruins that ended on May 13, 2013?

 

[Erdinger]

You mean there's fans that failed to watch that 7 game playoff series against the Bruins that ended on May 13, 2013?

Couldn't be bothered editing it once it was posted. The gist of my argument is that some of the staunchest defenders of this core are people who don't even remember the playoff success of the Quinn teams. Like the teams management there is a need to cling to this mostly failing group

 

[hfman]

A major major issue is that our OWNER(S) sell hockey to the Canadian TV audience.A drop in ratings cost them money...Toronto is the biggest TV market in the country...The Leafs also sell nationally.

We are F'd!

nice to see educated fans. Spread the word!! My guess is 95% of Leaf fans have no clue hwo owns them let alone know that the owners are the same company that smears them in the media.


Rogers owns the Leafs. They also own Sportsnet. Sportsnet often smears the Leafs in the media. So in other words, Rogers smears the Leafs in the media. To wrap it up:

Rogers owns the Leafs. And they smear them in the media.

F'd up? That's putting it nicely. There's actually no words or definitions to exactly describe just HOW F'd up that is. But it is. And why is it that NHL players avoid this city again? A city where the owners of its hockey team runs their team through the mud, almost discouraging you to go see a game? Backwards. Backwards, backwards, backwards. PROOF that it doesn't matter what the hell the Leafs do on the ice, they're gonna sell. Their owners can publicly say "WE SUCK SO DON'T COME TO OUR GAMES" and they'll STILL sell out. Brutal. Is there a better word than brutal?

 

[Erdinger]

nice to see educated fans. Spread the word!! My guess is 95% of Leaf fans have no clue hwo owns them let alone know that the owners are the same company that smears them in the media.


Rogers owns the Leafs. They also own Sportsnet. Sportsnet often smears the Leafs in the media. So in other words, Rogers smears the Leafs in the media. To wrap it up:

Rogers owns the Leafs. And they smear them in the media.

F'd up? That's putting it nicely. There's actually no words or definitions to exactly describe just HOW F'd up that is. But it is. And why is it that NHL players avoid this city again?

It's ultimately just media controlled entertainment just not made to be as obvious as WWE


Before anyone comes in here saying that I'm saying the results are fixed like the WWE i'm not.

 

[Stephen]

A major major issue is that our OWNER(S) sell hockey to the Canadian TV audience.A drop in ratings cost them money...Toronto is the biggest TV market in the country...The Leafs also sell nationally.

We are F'd!

As incompetent as the Leafs are, the team and the city is also heavily exploited by the NHL as this golden goose of revenue. Why does the NHL stand by idly sucking up all the revenue sharing dollars from the Leafs to fund its misadventures in the south while allowing MLSE to rip off this fanbase? If the GTA is paying so much more than other NHL markets, should there not be either a) some kind of concession to the big markets b) some kind of ticket price cap?

2015 really feels like the darkest days since the Ballard era.

 

[garce]

When you look at up and coming teams, many of them have put in a couple of tank years.

Tampa Bay, the Islanders, even Florida, Colorado last year. These teams are reaping the draft and tank and development rewards and look poised to be joining the Kings, Hawks, etc.

This is very true, the key now is not to trade any picks and attempt to accumulate a few more before this years draft.

 

[Stephen]

nice to see educated fans. Spread the word!! My guess is 95% of Leaf fans have no clue hwo owns them let alone know that the owners are the same company that smears them in the media.


Rogers owns the Leafs. They also own Sportsnet. Sportsnet often smears the Leafs in the media. So in other words, Rogers smears the Leafs in the media. To wrap it up:

Rogers owns the Leafs. And they smear them in the media.

F'd up? That's putting it nicely. There's actually no words or definitions to exactly describe just HOW F'd up that is. But it is. And why is it that NHL players avoid this city again? A city where the owners of its hockey team runs their team through the mud, almost discouraging you to go see a game? Backwards. Backwards, backwards, backwards. PROOF that it doesn't matter what the hell the Leafs do on the ice, they're gonna sell. Their owners can publicly say "WE SUCK SO DON'T COME TO OUR GAMES" and they'll STILL sell out. Brutal. Is there a better word than brutal?

Rogers, Sportsnet, TSN and Bell all treat the Leafs like a tabloid curiosity. A little bit embarrassing when the coverage is so high profile and gossipy that our in-fighting is used up as the butt of so many jokes.