F Aito Iguchi - Saitama Warriors, Japan (2021 Draft)

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ijuka

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Japan is D1B
Did they avoid relegation by some rule or?
Maybe Midget AAA, Considering Ando won the MVP in the CSSHL E15 league last season and he, Iguchi and Murakami are the only 2003s on the U20 team. I would hazard a guess that this U20 could dominate most Midget AAA teams in Canada
So let's see here.

1. Ando played in CSSHL E15 last season.
2. Ando's far better than anyone else on the team. Save Iguchi, perhaps.
3. Most people after playing in CSSHL E15 play in CSSHL midget prep - or equivalent - the next season
4. Western minor hockey's not nearly as strong as Ontario

The assumption that they could dominate most Midget AAA teams doesn't hold water.
 

3 Minute Minor

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People do some weird mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that Canadas Midget AAA teams are invincible


Great Britain sends their kids to Midget AAA every year and their U18 teams struggle. They got to U18 D1B and immediately got relegated despite 3 Jr. A players (2 in CCHL, 1 in NCDC) and another half dozen that played Midget AAA including both goalies that struggled despite great Midget AAA numbers. That doesn't even include 3-4 of their best players that didn't even go to Midget AAA in Canada and stayed home on pro deals.

I can't understand why people think most Midget AAA teams are stacked to the tits with elite talent
 
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ijuka

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People do some weird mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that Canadas Midget AAA teams are invincible


Great Britain sends their kids to Midget AAA every year and their U18 teams struggle. They got to U18 D1B and immediately got relegated despite 3 Jr. A players (2 in CCHL, 1 in NCDC) and another half dozen that played Midget AAA including both goalies that struggled despite great Midget AAA numbers. That doesn't even include 3-4 of their best players that didn't even go to Midget AAA in Canada and stayed home on pro deals.

I can't understand why people think most Midget AAA teams are stacked to the **** with elite talent
this U20 could dominate most Midget AAA teams in Canada"
It wasn't about Midget AAA teams destroying them, or even winning against them. It was about whether most Midget AAA teams in Canada would get dominated.

From where I'm standing, I see the best player on the u20 team by far played a tier below midget hockey, in western canada of all places. Well, or 2 tiers below major midget, I guess. I'm totally not 100% familiar with Canadian minors/juniors, I think it's an incomprehensible mess. Still, though, tough to see a team whose clearly best player didn't even play midget last season to dominate the majority of midget teams.
 
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Gordon Graham

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Did they avoid relegation by some rule or?
So let's see here.

1. Ando played in CSSHL E15 last season.
2. Ando's far better than anyone else on the team. Save Iguchi, perhaps.
3. Most people after playing in CSSHL E15 play in CSSHL midget prep - or equivalent - the next season
4. Western minor hockey's not nearly as strong as Ontario

The assumption that they could dominate most Midget AAA teams doesn't hold water.
Just look at the clip I posted of Saitama Sakae, at the time about the 15th~20th best high school team in Japan, beating a Midget AAA team from Alberta. Saitama beat 4 of the 5 teams they played on that trip. It doesn't take much imagination to figure out a team made up of the best high school players along with top 1st year University players would be much stronger than that Saitama Sakae team and could beat most Midget AAA teams in Canada except for possibly a select few like the Don Mills Flyers. As I've indicated, I've seen the top Midget AAA teams live in the OHL Cup, in which one of my former players, Ikki Kogawa participated for the Toronto Young Nationals. Ikki was selected for the Top Prospects game which is essentially the Midget AAA all star game for the GTHL, the strongest league in Canada. While there are exceptional players like Shane Wright, there are also a lot of ridged skaters even at the Midget level in Canadian AAA hockey. I'll post a clip of the semi-finals game between Don Mills and Detroit's little Caesars. Note how few times two consecutive passes are made. Typical of NA Midget hockey the kids hustle and cut off ice well, but there is little flow in the game at Bantam or Midget. The Japanese are heavily influenced by Russian hockey (look at a map to see why). They have greater agility at a younger age because that's what is emphasised from the get go. They also play a possession game much like the old Soviet hockey. Passing is taught as the 2nd most important skill after skating. Shooting is the last skill that is developed. I've seen these kids time and time again compete at the AAA level in Canada and excel. I grew up in Toronto playing AAA hockey, and I've coached hockey for 30 years, 20 in Japan. I know what I'm looking at and while I'm biased towards the kids I've coached, I'm honest and knowledgeable in my assessment.
 
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Gordon Graham

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It wasn't about Midget AAA teams destroying them, or even winning against them. It was about whether most Midget AAA teams in Canada would get dominated.

From where I'm standing, I see the best player on the u20 team by far played a tier below midget hockey, in western canada of all places. Well, or 2 tiers below major midget, I guess. I'm totally not 100% familiar with Canadian minors/juniors, I think it's an incomprehensible mess. Still, though, tough to see a team whose clearly best player didn't even play midget last season to dominate the majority of midget teams.
Here is the sentiment I was responding to: "I think most Midget AAA teams in any of the big provinces, especially (Alberta, Ontario, and Quebec) would wipe the floor with the u20 Japanese,"
 

3 Minute Minor

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It wasn't about Midget AAA teams destroying them, or even winning against them. It was about whether most Midget AAA teams in Canada would get dominated.

From where I'm standing, I see the best player on the u20 team by far played a tier below midget hockey, in western canada of all places. Well, or 2 tiers below major midget, I guess. I'm totally not 100% familiar with Canadian minors/juniors, I think it's an incomprehensible mess. Still, though, tough to see a team whose clearly best player didn't even play midget last season to dominate the majority of midget teams.

Well it's definitely not 2 tiers below major midget and "western canada of all places" is a weird perspective. CSSHL is a pretty good level of hockey. Anyone trying to put it down is usually coming from a place of jealousy because it's a big money league (a bunch of prep schools) so you kind of have to tune out that noise.

CSSHL only had like 30-35 U16 kids up full-time. 49 of the 193 Canadians drafted in the 2018 WHL Bantam draft played CSSHL E15 this season.

So think of the context. Pursuits CSSHL team is poor but the E15 team was going to be decent. Ando is a bit of an unknown, he's undersized, and he's new to Canada. Do you throw him to the wolves and see what happens in CSSHL or do you put him in a position to succeed and adjust at his own pace in E15? imo E15 is the right call considering he's an import and can't play WHL next season anyway, there's no need for him to rush.

It's still a high quality league and in his 1 CSSHL game he racked up 3 points lol I'm sure if they moved him up full-time midway through the season he would have done just fine up there but like I said, no need for him to rush.
 

Gordon Graham

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Well it's definitely not 2 tiers below major midget and "western canada of all places" is a weird perspective. CSSHL is a pretty good level of hockey. Anyone trying to put it down is usually coming from a place of jealousy because it's a big money league (a bunch of prep schools) so you kind of have to tune out that noise.

CSSHL only had like 30-35 U16 kids up full-time. 49 of the 193 Canadians drafted in the 2018 WHL Bantam draft played CSSHL E15 this season.

So think of the context. Pursuits CSSHL team is poor but the E15 team was going to be decent. Ando is a bit of an unknown, he's undersized, and he's new to Canada. Do you throw him to the wolves and see what happens in CSSHL or do you put him in a position to succeed and adjust at his own pace in E15? imo E15 is the right call considering he's an import and can't play WHL next season anyway, there's no need for him to rush.

It's still a high quality league and in his 1 CSSHL game he racked up 3 points lol I'm sure if they moved him up full-time midway through the season he would have done just fine up there but like I said, no need for him to rush.
You're the most knowledgeable guy on this board with the most balanced informed opinion. Respect
 

bobby183

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Japan is D1B

Yes all three Japanese men's national teams were in D1B this year...but:

U18 Japan will play in D1A in 2020 since they took gold in D1B this year.

U20 Japan will play in D2A in 2020 since they came in last place in D1B this year (Ando and Iguchi now joining should help it go back to D1B)

Senior Japan team will remain in D1B since they came in 3rd place in D1B this year.
 
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Huck Cheever

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Just look at the clip I posted of Saitama Sakae, at the time about the 15th~20th best high school team in Japan, beating a Midget AAA team from Alberta. Saitama beat 4 of the 5 teams they played on that trip. It doesn't take much imagination to figure out a team made up of the best high school players along with top 1st year University players would be much stronger than that Saitama Sakae team and could beat most Midget AAA teams in Canada except for possibly a select few like the Don Mills Flyers. As I've indicated, I've seen the top Midget AAA teams live in the OHL Cup, in which one of my former players, Ikki Kogawa participated for the Toronto Young Nationals. Ikki was selected for the Top Prospects game which is essentially the Midget AAA all star game for the GTHL, the strongest league in Canada. While there are exceptional players like Shane Wright, there are also a lot of ridged skaters even at the Midget level in Canadian AAA hockey. I'll post a clip of the semi-finals game between Don Mills and Detroit's little Caesars. Note how few times two consecutive passes are made. Typical of NA Midget hockey the kids hustle and cut off ice well, but there is little flow in the game at Bantam or Midget. The Japanese are heavily influenced by Russian hockey (look at a map to see why). They have greater agility at a younger age because that's what is emphasised from the get go. They also play a possession game much like the old Soviet hockey. Passing is taught as the 2nd most important skill after skating. Shooting is the last skill that is developed. I've seen these kids time and time again compete at the AAA level in Canada and excel. I grew up in Toronto playing AAA hockey, and I've coached hockey for 30 years, 20 in Japan. I know what I'm looking at and while I'm biased towards the kids I've coached, I'm honest and knowledgeable in my assessment.

Not disputing your claim but if Japan's average high school teams are smoking Alberta AAA teams then why isn't this growing into fruition for Japan on international stages and the NHL draft?
 

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Not disputing your claim but if Japan's average high school teams are smoking Alberta AAA teams then why isn't this growing into fruition for Japan on international stages and the NHL draft?

I feel like there is a lot of discord over there. This wave of kids are the best Japan has ever had and they are being flooded with options. But not all of them of equipped to deal with those options. You have to remember that this is Japans real first wave of kids. It's pretty rare for us to see a first wave of hockey talent in our life time. And even if they aren't up to snuff they are still the first wave from this country and we have to make sure we embrace this growth. Hockey has a natural place in Asia, and if we can get it to stick. It will lead to unprecedented growth over there.

We have to remember to be kind to our Asian neighbors but also tough on them like we were with all the other current hockey powers (USA, Finland, Sweden, Russia, Czech). The only way we move this sport forward is through inclusion and we have a serious leg up on the NFL and MLB in that regard. Hockey has the potential to be a global sport like footy. Even if we don't get that Southern US foothold. There are serious gains to be made in Asia and maybe even the South Pacific.
 

3 Minute Minor

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Yes all three Japanese men's national teams were in D1B this year...but:

U18 Japan will play in D1A in 2020 since they took gold in D1B this year.

U20 Japan will play in D2A in 2020 since they came in last place in D1B this year (Ando and Iguchi now joining should help it go back to D1B)

Senior Japan team will remain in D1B since they came in 3rd place in D1B this year.

D2A could actually be a fun tournament

Japan has Ando & Iguchi (Maybe Sato?) and like you said, their U18 group won gold in D1B.
GB will be strong for the group too with Liam Kirk and then the Jr. A group of Biddulph (NCDC), Cooper (NAHL), Rais Francis (NAHL/USHL), Neilson (NAHL), Larkin (CCHL) + the EIHL guys like Buesa, Brown, Hazeldine, Griffin. Their goaltending will be the weak link that could get totally exposed.
Lithuania has Laurynas Lubys (SaiPa) that can steal a tournament and Lukas Vascho has proven he can produce in D2A no problem.

I'll sleep on Romania/Serbia/Spain but the games between the top 3 will be fun for sure.
 

Huck Cheever

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I feel like there is a lot of discord over there. This wave of kids are the best Japan has ever had and they are being flooded with options. But not all of them of equipped to deal with those options. You have to remember that this is Japans real first wave of kids. It's pretty rare for us to see a first wave of hockey talent in our life time. And even if they aren't up to snuff they are still the first wave from this country and we have to make sure we embrace this growth. Hockey has a natural place in Asia, and if we can get it to stick. It will lead to unprecedented growth over there.

We have to remember to be kind to our Asian neighbors but also tough on them like we were with all the other current hockey powers (USA, Finland, Sweden, Russia, Czech). The only way we move this sport forward is through inclusion and we have a serious leg up on the NFL and MLB in that regard. Hockey has the potential to be a global sport like footy. Even if we don't get that Southern US foothold. There are serious gains to be made in Asia and maybe even the South Pacific.
Sorry I can't believe what you just said regarding inclusion.

The MLB has the most diverse league with almost every race involved. The NFL is a land athletic sport so your best players that will fill the league will be those athletic players. You can't blame a league if certain countries or ethnicities aren't as athletic to compete in the NFL.

W...t...f
 

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Sorry I can't believe what you just said regarding inclusion.

The MLB has the most diverse league with almost every race involved. The NFL is a land athletic sport so your best players that will fill the league will be those athletic players. You can't blame a league if certain countries or ethnicities aren't as athletic to compete in the NFL.

W...t...f
Japan has more registered players than Slovakia and I think Austria (and perhaps Czechia, but don't quote me on that). Hockey is a unique sport where you don't need a ton of players to be successful as we've seen with Sweden and Finland. However, if you're not going to play the numbers game like Canada can, you better hope your development can overcome and in Japan's case it hasn't. Remember that a lot of sports teams not only in Japanese culture, but Asian culture are tied together with schools. Students join clubs which can be futball, tennis, baseball, archery, and in the north hockey. One problem is that hockey is very well known in the Northern part of Japan where they get a ton of snow, but is practically unknown the more south you go. Like people might know it, but don't care about it as baseball is the king, especially in Tokyo. Of course hockey is quite regional on both sides of the sea, but that hasn't stopped other countries in producing good players.

If I was going to take a guess, it's a bit too chaotic in terms of getting proper development as schools control the programme instead of an outside source filled with development accolades (as we find in USHL/CHL). Of course hockey has great prep schools in North America such as SSM, Select Hockey, Pursuit to Excellence, and Red Bull Akademie in Europe. Based on the info provided by Gordon-senpai, Saitama is a dedicated hockey prep school there, but the other problem is they're playing against other schools who have chaotic programmes and Iguchi's team probably destroy them.

It seems similar to the problem in England where instead of creating a top junior level where they can narrow down talent levels at the top, they believe that every single ice rink in England deserves to have a team as well as a junior team (as @3 Minute Minor can probably go more in-depth). That not only destroys the development of the league, but it really waters it down. Since players who need extra development time are getting ripped apart by the superior talented players and the talented players are plateauing in their development because they're playing against water-downed competition. It's as much of a lose-lose scenario you can get.

The other problem is that Japan sports federation funds money into programmes, but I've noticed they're quite biased - who isn't? - in terms of the sports and which ones. They tend to fund summer sports much more than winter and the more popular the sport is the more funding it gets such as volleyball, futball, and baseball. Winter has been getting more money lately, but since hockey is regional it doesn't get as much as other popular sports in Japan such as ski jumping and now figure skating. Surprisingly the women's hockey team is getting much more popular, but is still very far behind ski jumping. Japan just needs a wave of good players to catch the eye of the people at top who having meetings over funding. Hopefully, one of these players in this crazy age group for Japan can make the NHL which is very powerful tool to get the media's attention.
 
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Gordon Graham

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Not disputing your claim but if Japan's average high school teams are smoking Alberta AAA teams then why isn't this growing into fruition for Japan on international stages and the NHL draft?
Not "smoking", but able to beat AAA Midget teams. Keep in mind the age difference. While there are a few 15 year olds on Japanese high school teams there are also 18 year olds. The best 17~18 year olds in Canada are playing in the CHL. But, that wasn't the claim I was addressing. Of course, Canada's top 17~18 year olds would embarrass Japan. My contention is that the U20 Japan team could beat most Midget AAA clubs in Canada.
 

ijuka

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Not "smoking", but able to beat AAA Midget teams. Keep in mind the age difference. While there are a few 15 year olds on Japanese high school teams there are also 18 year olds. The best 17~18 year olds in Canada are playing in the CHL. But, that wasn't the claim I was addressing. Of course, Canada's top 17~18 year olds would embarrass Japan. My contention is that the U20 Japan team could beat most Midget AAA clubs in Canada.
Aren't you moving goal posts? First you said dominate, then "able to beat", which doesn't even involve winning the majority of the time.
 
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I am toxic

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Aren't you moving goal posts? First you said dominate, then "able to beat", which doesn't even involve winning the majority of the time.

I thought he was referring to the Japanese U20 team when he said "could dominate" Midget AAA in Canada. And was referring to Japanese HS teams when referring to "able to beat."
 
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ijuka

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I thought he was referring to the Japanese U20 team when he said "could dominate" Midget AAA in Canada. And was referring to Japanese HS teams when referring to "able to beat."
My contention is that the U20 Japan team could beat most Midget AAA clubs in Canada.
was in the post I quoted...?
 

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was in the post I quoted...?

Yeah, exactly, it's right there in the post you quoted.

So why do you alter what he said about HS teams vs what he said about the U20 team?

For the U20 team he said "could beat most", not "able to beat", as you mistakenly stated. So while it may or may not be as strong as "dominate", it is clearly not much if any change in the position of the goal posts.

It does not appear to be arguing in good faith. You certainly are not arguing from a place of knowledge, as you have already stated - and I am paraphrasing - you don't understand the leagues in Western Canada. Which is quite clear.

But all that is just a diversion, to avoid the point that what is clear is that the sentiment that Midget AAA teams would wipe the floor with this Japanese U20 team is way off base.
 
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ijuka

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Yeah, exactly, it's right there in the post you quoted.

So why do you alter what he said about HS teams vs what he said about the U20 team?

For the U20 team he said "could beat most", not "able to beat", as you mistakenly stated. So while it may or may not be as strong as "dominate", it is clearly not much if any change in the position of the goal posts.
Saying "could beat" is very different from saying "dominate". "could beat" is synonymous with "able to beat", not a "mistake". It specifically is changing goal posts.

I've not said anything about what he said about HS teams, that's your fabrication and day dreaming.
 

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Saying "could beat" is very different from saying "dominate". "could beat" is synonymous with "able to beat", not a "mistake". It specifically is changing goal posts.

I've not said anything about what he said about HS teams, that's your fabrication and day dreaming.

Yeah, you actually quoted exactly what he said about HS teams, and attempted to mislead that it was what he was saying about the U20 team. Someone is fabricating stuff, and it isn't me.

As for what he said, he said "could beat most", not just "could beat." Again, you appear to be deliberately misleading. A dominant team "could beat most" other teams. That isn't some big shift in goal posts.

And all of it is the usual BS you serve up, because your whole approach is to distract away from the main point, which is that Midget AAA teams would not wipe the floor with the Japan U20 team. It doesn't matter whether the U20 team "beats most" of them or "dominates" them.
 

Gordon Graham

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Aren't you moving goal posts? First you said dominate, then "able to beat", which doesn't even involve winning the majority of the time.
Yes, the U20 team could "dominate most" Midget AAA teams except for perhaps the the very top echelon such as Don Mills Flyers, which they could beat, but not "dominate" hence "most"...not "all". Just as Don Mills Flyers "dominate" "most" AAA Midget teams in Canada. When I said "able to beat" and not "smoke", I was referring to the 15th~20th best high school team in Japan who were in fact "able to beat" AAA hockey clubs in Canada. I was responding to "Cheever's" post in which he said "If Japan's average high school teams are "smoking" Midget AAA teams..." When I posed this to a father of a defenseman who plays Midget AAA for BWC one of the top teams in Canada, a father whose son was born and raised in Japan and who knows the players on the U20 team and whose son has played AAA in Canada since pee wee, he fully agreed with me that that Japan U20 team would "dominate" most Canadian Midget AAA teams. How often have you seen those players live? How many Midget AAA teams from Canada have you seen play live? Just wondering what your experience is regarding this question.
 
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