ESPN Article: Top 10 Centers in the NHL, as Ranked by Players and Team Officials

[Chaos2k7]

So

I have literally done that multiple times.

I laid out the criteria I'd want out of Barkov before calling him the "best 2-way center in hockey". It's maintain his level of production while winning or challenging for a Selke, and repeating that next year. Until then, I have Bergeron above him. Being an ~85 point center who finishes around 5th in Selke voting isn't a better 2-way player than a PPG center who is winning the Selke or is a finalist every year.

I expect Barkov to actually upend Bergeron before I start calling him the best 2-way center instead of Bergeron. He hasn't done that yet.

Why isnt Bergeron on that list? In your opinión?

 

[Empoleon8771]

So

Why isnt Bergeron on that list? In your opinión?

Bergeron is the 6th best center in my eyes and the best 2-way center in hockey.

 

[blankall]

Matthews two way game? Mackinnon focuses on being more of a dynamic offensive player that a all around two way center?

No one who lives outside of Toronto thinks that. MacKinnon's overall game is superb. Not only does MacKinnon have a better two way game than Matthews, MacKinnon also has a much better physical game.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Oh, that's why he has been a finalist for the Selke for 5 seasons. Oh wait. Again, literally read what I'm posting. I'm positive you can read, and I'll make it nice and big for you so you can see it again:



If the list is "best 2-way player in hockey", of course you're going to need multiple trophies or multiple finalist positions. This is not a debate of "good 2-way players", this is a debate of "best 2-way player in hockey". If you want to be the best, of course you need to have the hardware to back it up. How can you even begin to argue otherwise?

I know this may shock and amaze but your criteria wasnt included in the poll or the votes. Nothing against Patrice I just dont agree with you, today.

 

[filinski77]

I don’t know how people are ranking anyone but MacKinnon and McDavid above Crosby.

I think at this point there is an argument for a few centers. From 2018/2019 to now:

	Points/GP	Goals/GP	Crosby Points/GP	Crosby Goals/GP		Point/GP diff	Goal/GP diff
McDavid	1.53	0.54	1.21	0.42		26%	29%
Draisaitl	1.42	0.58	1.21	0.42		17%	38%
Mackinnon	1.28	0.49	1.21	0.42		6%	17%
Matthews	1.14	0.64	1.21	0.42		-6%	52%
Stamkos	1.13	0.51	1.21	0.42		-7%	21%
Barkov	1.09	0.38	1.21	0.42		-10%	-10%
Bergeron	1.02	0.47	1.21	0.42		-16%	12%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Draisaitl is just so much better offensively, that he is clearly ahead of Crosby, same goes for Matthews. Then you can look at guys like Barkov and Bergeron, and how much does the defensive advantage that they have make up for the offensive advantage that Crosby does? For Barkov I think I good case could be made that he's on par with Crosby.

 

[Unspecified]

#96 on that list is Jamie Benn and his boat anchor contract

 

[A1LeafNation]

Mack CF% is 62 and has 18 ES goals against all year but yes he just goal hangs out there.

Cool he elite with that 62%, what does he do with that remaining 38% is my question.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Bergeron is the 6th best center in my eyes and the best 2-way center in hockey.

In your eyes. We will have to agree to disagree. But opinions are very subjective. Thats the fun of debating.

 

[Regal]

You said you wanted to see him maintain his play. He has been for 5 seasons.

He has.

If multiple trophies is what you need to see almost nobody would make any list at all.

Barkov's defensive stats were poor for three years before this one. He was running off reputation before finally putting it together again this season.

 

[EK392000]

1. McDavid (Most gifted offensive player the NHL has ever seen)
2. MacKinnon (Possession monster, dominates when he's on the ice)
3. Matthews (One of the best 5 on 5 goal scorers in the league)
4. Crosby (Superstar grinder, solid defensive game)
T5. Draisaitl (Offensive wizard, defensive game needs work but is improving)
T5. Eichel (He could probably be higher if he had linemates like some of the guys on this list)
T5. Barkov (Great defensively, offensive production has improved greatly over the past few seasons)

HM:
Point (Solid two-way game, his offensive game is great but a tier below the guys above him)
Aho (Similar boat as Point)
Pettersson (Gifted hands, plays both ends)
Barzal (High IQ, skating ability, his production takes a hit because of the system he plays in)
Bergeron (Defensive wizard, offensive production is good but not great)

EDIT: I'm open to arguments but arguing Eichel shouldn't be on the list because of lack of success in Buffalo isn't persuasive. The Great McDavid cannot save that franchise, and he is indisputably the best.

 

[pcruz]

What argument has Matthews over Barkov and Draisaitl?

Runaway Rocket Richard favourite this year.
2nd in total goals since entering the league (15 goals behind some scrub called Ovechkin, while playing 30 less games).
Not riding the coattails of the best player in the NHL.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Bergeron is the 6th best center in my eyes and the best 2-way center in hockey.

His linemates make him look better than he is.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think at this point there is an argument for a few centers. From 2018/2019 to now:

	Points/GP	Goals/GP	Crosby Points/GP	Crosby Goals/GP		Point/GP diff	Goal/GP diff
McDavid	1.53	0.54	1.21	0.42		26%	29%
Draisaitl	1.42	0.58	1.21	0.42		17%	38%
Mackinnon	1.28	0.49	1.21	0.42		6%	17%
Matthews	1.14	0.64	1.21	0.42		-6%	52%
Stamkos	1.13	0.51	1.21	0.42		-7%	21%
Barkov	1.09	0.38	1.21	0.42		-10%	-10%
Bergeron	1.02	0.47	1.21	0.42		-16%	12%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Draisaitl is just so much better offensively, that he is clearly ahead of Crosby, same goes for Matthews. Then you can look at guys like Barkov and Bergeron, and how much does the defensive advantage that they have make up for the offensive advantage that Crosby does? For Barkov I think I good case could be made that he's on par with Crosby.

I struggle to see how this is the case with Matthews. It's definitely true with Draisaitl, but Matthews scoring more goals but having a lower points/game doesn't say "so much better offensively" to me.

To me, the big thing with Matthews is that he hasn't shown that clearly better level than Crosby has in any year. MacKinnon did do that, that's exactly what he did in 2019-2020. Matthews doesn't have that 2019-2020 MacKinnon season yet that would make me put him above Crosby.

 

[Mats13]

Lmao nothing more hilarious than HF posters thinking they know more than players and team officials

For some reason it’s only this board that doesn’t recognize Matthews for the dominant player he is. Wonder why that is

 

[M2Beezy]

Should be:

1. Mcdavid
2. Matthews
3. Mackinnon
4. Crosby
5. Marner
6. Draisatl
7. Tavares
8. Barkov
9 . Point
10. Hyman

How do people just so easily forget about William Nylander? Is it because he often plays the wing? The anti Leaf bias is so strong people ON PURPOSE forget hes actually a top centre who should be on EVERYONES list

 

[Chaos2k7]

Barkov's defensive stats were poor for three years before this one. He was running off reputation before finally putting it together again this season.

Have you followed the team for the last 3 seasons? It wasnt Barkov as any issue.

Any Sharks fans brave enough to describe a Bob Boughner defensive system?

 

[LivingRentFree]

Imagine believing Matthews is a stud defensively.

Should probably look at the stats.

 

[FlaPanthers11]

Literally everything is subjective when it comes to things like "defensive play". Saying awards are subjective isn't a legit point because basically everything when it comes to defensive play beyond goals against is subjective.

Fair point. In my view, considering the biases in Selke voting (reputation, major market, playoff team) I don’t see it as foolproof to say “if player X didn’t win the Selke that season he wasn’t the best two way forward”. In reality, Bergeron probably should have won more in his prime but didn’t due to voter fatigue. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t the best that year.

Finishing in 4th or 5th (with plenty of first place votes) in back to back years the Panthers missed the playoffs doesn’t tell me he wasn’t the best two way forward those years. These years were 3 seasons ago and 2 seasons ago. Last season was a disaster defensive year for the whole Panther team which killed his numbers but now they’re back to top of the league. I feel he’s maintained his play and justified our thoughts on him over at least the last 4 seasons.

 

[Regal]

Have you followed the team for the last 3 seasons? It wasnt Barkov as any issue.

You're not the best 2-way player in the league if the team is giving up more with you on the ice than off. I don't care how poor or disorganized your team is.

 

[violaswallet]

I have literally done that multiple times.

I laid out the criteria I'd want out of Barkov before calling him the "best 2-way center in hockey". It's maintain his level of production while winning or challenging for a Selke, and repeating that next year. Until then, I have Bergeron above him. Being an ~85 point center who finishes around 5th in Selke voting isn't a better 2-way player than a PPG center who is winning the Selke or is a finalist every year.

I expect Barkov to actually upend Bergeron before I start calling him the best 2-way center instead of Bergeron. He hasn't done that yet.

A few points for Barkov:

1. Performance of wingers on his wing: Here are the wingers who have had careers years on his wing since 2016: Jagr (.5 point per game to out of the league in two months), Bjugstad (~50 points per seasonto middling on Pittsburg), Dadonov (~70 points per season to ~35 points per season on Ottawa), Verhaege (Journeyman fourth lines to ~40 goals per season pace)
   1. Essentially anyone put on his wing looks like a good scoring forward and, except for Huberdeau, they step back away from him.
   2. This season is particularly impressive given two-way dominance with Duclair and Verhaege as line maters as opposed to Huberdeau!
2. Selke has historical hindsight bias/big market bias, which harmed him and weakens your argument. This season, he finally is receiving recognition.
3. This season he is scoring at a 100 point per game pace; two years ago he scored 96 points. Last season he was injured for a good bit of the season. His scoring pace is with freaking Verhaege and Duclair as his linemates!

 

[Dueling Banjos]

Barkov gets no respect.

Rodney Barkovfield.

 

[Byron Bitz]

I think if they did it now..

1. McDavid
2. Drai
3. Crosby
4. MacKinnon
5. Barkov

Where would you rank Matthews?

 

[DesertPenguin]

Tbh I still haven't seen a convincing argument for Matthews over Crosby yet. I don't think it's "wrong", but I just don't think Matthews has had that continuous level of being better than Crosby to warrant being rated higher than Crosby. I'd probably call it "premature" more than "wrong".

I don't think Matthews has shown a sustained level above Crosby that would make me rate him over Crosby like MacKinnon and Draisaitl have.

I see McDavid and MacKinnon as dynamic talents that should rank over Crosby. Peak Crosby was something else but Sid has declined a bit. I agree Matthews hasn't shown me that yet.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

It’s funny when fans say the list is wrong and players should be placed differently. This is a list by the frickin players and league officials, it doesn’t get any more accurate than that.
You might differ on selections but if you put your opinion over this list you’re simply a delusional narcissist; your opinion isn’t greater here.

 

[Chaos2k7]

You're not the best 2-way player in the league if the team is giving up more with you on the ice than off. I don't care how poor or disorganized your team is.

We ran a 80s style d system. And bled goals for it. BB wouls play Barkov 25+ minutes a night. He was not the problem lol.