ESPN Article: Top 10 Centers in the NHL, as Ranked by Players and Team Officials

[Empoleon8771]

Better defensively? Debatable.

You think they are better offensively? You are off your gourd.

Its best two way center, not best center in the league.

The offensive difference between Bergeron and Barkov is negligible, so yes, I'd comfortably say Bergeron is still the best 2-way center in hockey. At least until Barkov actually wins a Selke and maintains that level of production.

 

[FLpanthers16]

Couturier and Bergeron are both better defensively than Barkov and the difference offensively doesn't account for the difference.

But even if I don't feel like dying on the Couturier hill, I'd absolutely die on the Bergeron hill. Bergeron is marginally less productive (1.01 PPG vs 1.06 PPG) while being more proven defensively.

59 in 66 thats ppg if he stays healthy, 78 in 79 same thing, 62 in 66 while playing injured most of the year.



Like lets not act like hes been close or pretty much ppg for some time now while playing with some scrubs along the way.

 

[Necrobutcher]

The "Barkov is a top 5 C" narrative is one of the more bizarre and hilarious over-ratings of a player I've seen.

Yeah hahaha a guy who probably wouldn't currently be outside the top 7 in anybodys list is in some peoples opinion in the top 5 haha lol that's HILARIOUS & BIZARRE!

 

[Chaos2k7]

The offensive difference between Bergeron and Barkov is negligible, so yes, I'd comfortably say Bergeron is still the best 2-way center in hockey. At least until Barkov actually wins a Selke and maintains that level of production.

Post the offensive stats, over the past 5 Years.

Maintain his level of play he said. Lol.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Post the offensive stats, over the past 5 Years.

Maintain his level of play he said. Lol.

Yes, that means actually win a Selke. Their PPGs being equal (which is where Bergeron and Barkov are at in the past couple of years, as I posted above), while Bergeron is winning Selkes and being a finalist while Barkov hasn't, results in Bergeron being better.

Again, I genuinely don't see the problem here. I want to see Barkov actually win a Selke and maintain that top 2-way forward level before calling him the best 2-way center in hockey. That means more than put up a ~85 point pace while finishing around 5th in Selke voting, that means winning a Selke and maintaining himself near the top of the list with that production. Until then, I'm still taking Bergeron over him.

Barkov's production isn't the point there, that's why I said "wins a Selke and maintains that production". The point is that he needs to be producing what he has while also winning and/or challenging for the Selke for me to call him the best 2-way forward.

 

[Zybalto]

Seems a fair list.

Some real eye popping numbers from all of them including underrated D.

Heres how they rank 5v5 against each other since the start of 2018 (with NHL rank thrown in for massive strengths):

Goals/60:
1. Matthews (1st among all players in the NHL players by a fair margin)
2. Draisaitl
3. McDavid
4. MacKinnon
5. Crosby

Points/60:
1. McDavid (1st among centers, 2nd only to Panarin for all players)
2. Draisaitl
3. Matthews
4. Crosby
5. MacKinnon

(All these guys are really close and in the top 10)

CF%:
1. MacKinnon (First among all centers. Possession monster)
2. Crosby
3. Matthews
4. McDavid
5. Draisaitl

CF% REL:
1. Crosby
2. MacKinnon
3. McDavid
4. Matthews
5. Draisaitl

xGF%:
1. MacKinnon
2. Matthews
3. Crosby
4. McDavid
5. Draisaitl

(The top three on this list are also in the top 5 for all centers over this time period.)

xGF% REL:
1. Crosby
2. Matthews
3. MacKinnon
4. McDavid
5. Draisaitl



Defence:

xGA/60:
1. MacKinnon
2. Crosby
3. Matthews
4. Draisaitl
5. McDavid


xGA/60 REL:
1. Crosby
2. Matthews
3. MacKinnon
4. Draisaitl
5. McDavid

Takeaways/60:
1. Matthews (2nd among all centers in the NHL)
2. McDavid
3. Draisaitl
4. Crosby
5. MacKinnon


MacKinnon and Matthews are certainly underrated defensively and Crosby probably always has been.

I'd personally have it:

1. McDavid - Maybe the biggest game breaker ever with insane combination of skating and skills that pulls off moves no one can today or ever.
2. Matthews - The heir apparent to Ovi's goal scoring crown while also being a beast two way center?
3. MacKinnon - Vaulted himself into best player on the planet discussions the last couple of years. Has all the tools as a monster two way player.
4. Draisaitl - Improved D lately to go along with his Art Ross level production really getting him in the conversation.
5. Crosby - Despite the lack of attention, complete package player proving he still belongs at a more advanced age than the rest.

Drai and Mac are tough to choose too...but thats just nitpicking here.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Yes, that means actually win a Selke. Their PPGs being equal (which is where Bergeron and Barkov are at in the past couple of years, as I posted above), while Bergeron is winning Selkes and being a finalist while Barkov hasn't, results in Bergeron being better.

Again, I genuinely don't see the problem here. I want to see Barkov actually win a Selke and maintain that top 2-way forward level before calling him the best 2-way center in hockey. That means more than put up a ~85 point pace while finishing around 5th in Selke voting, that means winning a Selke and maintaining himself near the top of the list with that production. Until then, I'm still taking Bergeron over him.

I hope you enjoy that solo boat cruise down the Nile.

Then where is Bergeron on that top 10 list or in any of your rankings? #1?

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Don't worry, he tops the top 10 list of McDavid's wingers.

It is remarkable that McDavid is still contributing to >55% of his points when he's allegedly centering his own line.

Desperate Leafs fans make me laugh
Don't worry, you can still make Matthews outscore Draisaitl in the NHL video games if you really try your best

 

[Empoleon8771]

I hope you enjoy that solo boat cruise down the Nile.

Then where is Bergeron on that top 10 list or in any of your rankings? #1?

Amazing rebuttal, you've convinced me. But seeing how Panthers fans are just calling me a "homer" for saying this, as if I'm defending a Penguins player here, I'm willing to bet a lot of you are just fanboys who are mad that someone doesn't agree with your opinions.

If you get so butthurt because someone says "I want to see him win a Selke before I call him the best 2-way player in hockey", well I'd just recommend you logging off. I gave you the criteria I'd want out of Barkov before I called him a better 2-way player than Bergeron. You accusing me of a homer or saying "I hope you enjoy your boat cruise down the Nile" just makes you look like a fanboy.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Seems a fair list.

Some real eye popping numbers from all of them including underrated D.

Heres how they rank 5v5 against each other since the start of 2018 (with NHL rank thrown in for massive strengths):

Goals/60:
1. Matthews (1st among all players in the NHL players by a fair margin)
2. Draisaitl
3. McDavid
4. MacKinnon
5. Crosby

Points/60:
1. McDavid (1st among centers, 2nd only to Panarin for all players)
2. Draisaitl
3. Matthews
4. Crosby
5. MacKinnon

(All these guys are really close and in the top 10)

CF%:
1. MacKinnon (First among all centers. Possession monster)
2. Crosby
3. Matthews
4. McDavid
5. Draisaitl

CF% REL:
1. Crosby
2. MacKinnon
3. McDavid
4. Matthews
5. Draisaitl

xGF%:
1. MacKinnon
2. Matthews
3. Crosby
4. McDavid
5. Draisaitl

(The top three on this list are also in the top 5 for all centers over this time period.)

xGF% REL:
1. Crosby
2. Matthews
3. MacKinnon
4. McDavid
5. Draisaitl



Defence:

xGA/60:
1. MacKinnon
2. Crosby
3. Matthews
4. Draisaitl
5. McDavid


xGA/60 REL:
1. Crosby
2. Matthews
3. MacKinnon
4. Draisaitl
5. McDavid

Takeaways/60:
1. Matthews (2nd among all centers in the NHL)
2. McDavid
3. Draisaitl
4. Crosby
5. MacKinnon


MacKinnon and Matthews are certainly underrated defensively and Crosby probably always has been.

I'd personally have it:

1. McDavid - Maybe the biggest game breaker ever with insane combination of skating and skills that pulls off moves no one can today or ever.
2. Matthews - The heir apparent to Ovi's goal scoring crown while also being a beast two way center?
3. MacKinnon - Vaulted himself into best player on the planet discussions the last couple of years. Has all the tools as a monster two way player.
4. Draisaitl - Improved D lately to go along with his Art Ross level production really getting him in the conversation.
5. Crosby - Despite the lack of attention, complete package player proving he still belongs at a more advanced age than the rest.

Drai and Mac are tough to choose too...but thats just nitpicking here.

More offense isnt the defacto trump card in this conversation.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Amazing rebuttal, you've convinced me. But seeing how Panthers fans are just calling me a "homer" for saying this, as if I'm defending a Penguins player here, I'm willing to bet a lot of you are just fanboys who are mad that someone doesn't agree with your opinions.

If you get so butthurt because someone says "I want to see him win a Selke before I call him the best 2-way player in hockey", well I'd just recommend you logging off. I gave you the criteria I'd want out of Barkov before I called him a better 2-way player than Bergeron. You accusing me of a homer or saying "I hope you enjoy your boat cruise down the Nile" just makes you look like a fanboy.

Why not answer direct questions about your opinion? Thats all any if us are giving here.

 

[Regal]

Id love to know who voted for Pettersson over Schiefele in the honorable mentions. Pettersson has never had a point per game season and Scheifele has been a ppg player for the last 4 seasons. He may have the potential to be a better player in the future but he is not a better player right now.

Since he's been in the league, Pettersson scores at a much better rate 5v5 and is better defensively than Scheifele. Scheifele scores at a slightly higher rate on the PP, but the main reason for his better PPG (which really isn't that much of a difference), is due to playing more.

 

[LRS87]

I don’t know how people are ranking anyone but MacKinnon and McDavid above Crosby.

 

[golgoXIII]

I'll take Scheifele way before Eichel

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why not answer direct questions about your opinion? Thats all any if us are giving here.

I have literally done that multiple times.

I laid out the criteria I'd want out of Barkov before calling him the "best 2-way center in hockey". It's maintain his level of production while winning or challenging for a Selke, and repeating that next year. Until then, I have Bergeron above him. Being an ~85 point center who finishes around 5th in Selke voting isn't a better 2-way player than a PPG center who is winning the Selke or is a finalist every year.

I expect Barkov to actually upend Bergeron before I start calling him the best 2-way center instead of Bergeron. He hasn't done that yet.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The "Barkov is a top 5 C" narrative is one of the more bizarre and hilarious over-ratings of a player I've seen.

I can see an argument made for him. He has the worst linemates and best defensive game.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Amazing rebuttal, you've convinced me. But seeing how Panthers fans are just calling me a "homer" for saying this, as if I'm defending a Penguins player here, I'm willing to bet a lot of you are just fanboys who are mad that someone doesn't agree with your opinions.

If you get so butthurt because someone says "I want to see him win a Selke before I call him the best 2-way player in hockey", well I'd just recommend you logging off. I gave you the criteria I'd want out of Barkov before I called him a better 2-way player than Bergeron. You accusing me of a homer or saying "I hope you enjoy your boat cruise down the Nile" just makes you look like a fanboy.

Having a different opinión doesnt make me a fanboy. Nor does it make it possible for you to quote where I called you a homer. Stop avoiding the points being made. Or accept others dont agree with yours. We dont need you to agree to know what we watch every night.

 

[FlaPanthers11]

Amazing rebuttal, you've convinced me. But seeing how Panthers fans are just calling me a "homer" for saying this, as if I'm defending a Penguins player here, I'm willing to bet a lot of you are just fanboys who are mad that someone doesn't agree with your opinions.

If you get so butthurt because someone says "I want to see him win a Selke before I call him the best 2-way player in hockey", well I'd just recommend you logging off. I gave you the criteria I'd want out of Barkov before I called him a better 2-way player than Bergeron. You accusing me of a homer or saying "I hope you enjoy your boat cruise down the Nile" just makes you look like a fanboy.

Why are you deferring to a subjective media voted award though? Bias in those awards and especially the Selke is well documented. Who is the last Selke winner in a small market? Who is the last that missed the playoffs?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Having a different opinión doesnt make me fanboy. Not does it make it possible for you to quote where I called you a homer. Stop avoiding the point being made. Or accept others dont agree with yours.

No, saying shit like "have a fun boat trip down the Nile" makes you look like a fanboy.

The only people avoiding the point being made are the Panthers fans who are posting crap like that or calling me a homer who somehow hates Barkov because of the Matheson trade or something like that. I have laid out MULTIPLE times what Barkov has to do for me to call him the best 2-way center in hockey.

 

[Slapshot Sultan]

Goals are worth more than assists and Matthews is the best center at goal scoring (Drai is close). But 4th is were I have him, as I don't think he has a case yet over McDavid, Drai or Mackinnon.

 

[oilchamp99]

Too much overthinking. Clearly its the following:
1. McDavid
2. Mackinnon
3. Draisaitl
4. Matthews
5. Crosby

Where are all of the Leafs fan who hated on Drai because he played with McDavid yet not a peep that AM plays with Marner? Hypocrites.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why are you deferring to a subjective media voted award though? Bias in those awards and especially the Selke is well documented. Who is the last Selke winner in a small market? Who is the last that missed the playoffs?

Literally everything is subjective when it comes to things like "defensive play". Saying awards are subjective isn't a legit point because basically everything when it comes to defensive play beyond goals against is subjective.

 

[Chaos2k7]

I have literally done that multiple times.

I laid out the criteria I'd want out of Barkov before calling him the "best 2-way center in hockey". It's maintain his level of production while winning or challenging for a Selke, and repeating that next year. Until then, I have Bergeron above him. Being an ~85 point center who finishes around 5th in Selke voting isn't a better 2-way player than a PPG center who is winning the Selke or is a finalist every year.

I expect Barkov to actually upend Bergeron before I start calling him the best 2-way center instead of Bergeron. He hasn't done that yet.

You said you wanted to see him maintain his play. He has been for 5 seasons.

He has.

If multiple trophies is what you need to see almost nobody would make any list at all.

 

[NoName]

I think if they did it now..

1. McDavid
2. Drai
3. Crosby
4. MacKinnon
5. Barkov

It really bugs you when the Leafs and their players are having success doesn't it? I wonder why that is?

 

[Empoleon8771]

You said you wanted to see him maintain his play. He has been for 5 seasons.

He has.

If multiple trophies is what you need to see almost nobody would make any list at all.

Oh, that's why he has been a finalist for the Selke for 5 seasons. Oh wait. Again, literally read what I'm posting. I'm positive you can read, and I'll make it nice and big for you so you can see it again:

I laid out the criteria I'd want out of Barkov before calling him the "best 2-way center in hockey". It's maintain his level of production while winning or challenging for a Selke, and repeating that next year.

If the list is "best 2-way player in hockey", of course you're going to need multiple trophies or multiple finalist positions. This is not a debate of "good 2-way players", this is a debate of "best 2-way player in hockey". If you want to be the best, of course you need to have the hardware to back it up. How can you even begin to argue otherwise?