ESPN Article: Top 10 Centers in the NHL, as Ranked by Players and Team Officials

[Spirit of 67]

Like the Price vote.

Yep.

Like lots of them.

 

[Beauner]

The "Barkov is a top 5 C" narrative is one of the more bizarre and hilarious over-ratings of a player I've seen.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Re-read my post lol, He was NOT the best 2 way C in hockey last year.

I guess this may just come down to a difference of preferences in player evaluation. I fundamentally have problems with declaring a certain player is the best XXXX in anything if you're only basing it on a sample size of this season. For a player to actually become the best overall, instead of just the best in a single season, they need to have maintained levels at or near that "best" level. It's why the "MacKinnon is the best player in the world" posts were dumb, because it was an overreaction to 1 season and playoff run.

For me to begin even entertaining the idea that Barkov is a top-5 C, he needs to finish out this year like he has and then repeat it next year.

 

[Buck Naked]

No, it's judging players based on how good they are defensively based on the award given out to the best players defensively. You're just being asinine with giving him credit for something he has literally never accomplished and doesn't have an argument for beyond "because I say so".

By the time Bergeron started to come into the conversation for the best defensive player in hockey, he was already a finalist for the Selke or pushing for finalist finishes. Bergeron wasn't one of the best defensive players before he was in contention for those Selke finishes.

Hmm, but Matthews is being viewed as a monster 2-way player by half of this thread. Based on what you're saying Barkov is clearly a better 2-way center since he's got plenty of more Selke votes. I'm glad that's settled.

Or, you can view the Selke for the reputation award it is. No matter what numbers Barkov and Matthews puts up this year they will receive lots of votes because of the narrative in the media.

 

[leach11]

The Matthews argument is always points per game/goal scoring. Reality is the guy has never had more than 80 points in a season.

The argument is done that way so that people like you aren't as easily able to misrepresent a player's value with your poor and incomplete analysis.

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Yes, you will totally get 100% unbiased answers and that will settle it.

I can already tell you Mackinnon will win that poll by a landslide. But you're a troll first and foremost, you already know this.

Its funny that people on HF always believe and preach that the difference between these two is so large, yet ask major media outlets or actual hockey people and it will be a toss up.

I have MacKinnon top 3-4, and Matthews around 8-10. I think they're different tiers. A large reason MacKinnon is placed so high is his playoff play...25 points in 15 games last season.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Matthews over Draisaitl? LMFAO

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hmm, but Matthews is being viewed as a monster 2-way player by half of this thread. Based on what you're saying Barkov is clearly a better 2-way center since he's got plenty of more Selke votes. I'm glad that's settled.

Or, you can view the Selke for the reputation award it is. No matter what numbers Barkov and Matthews puts up this year they will receive lots of votes because of the narrative in the media.

...uh, okay?

I think Barkov is better defensively than Matthews. Don't know how that has any relevance to my post. I think Matthews is good defensively at this point, and that combined with his goal scoring puts him above Barkov, but Matthews is not on par with Barkov defensively.

 

[FinlandPanther]

So if he was the best 2-way center in hockey last year, why was he 11th in Selke voting last year?

Because the team sucked. Selke winners are always on good teams. Jesus Christ. Use your brain.

 

[Roksta]

I know the leafs didn't have a lot of shiny stuff since 1967 but Matthews is not the second coming of JC. He is NOT better than Drai and MacKinnon. If he keeps this up this season? Sure you can say he's in the same tier. But better right now? gtfo

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because the team sucked. Selke winners are always on good teams. Jesus Christ. Use your brain.

Yes, the only reason Barkov didn't win the award was because of his team. You cracked the case! No way could it be that Barkov is just getting hilariously overrated. It's all his team's and the biased media's faults.

I'm still waiting for literally any argument for Barkov being a better 2-way center than Bergeron. Hell, I'd even be curious to hear an argument for Barkov over Couturier. Not that Barkov is having a better season this year, but Barkov has had a long enough sustained level of being a better 2-way player than Bergeron or Couturier to make it warranted to call him the best 2-way center in hockey.

 

[Spirit of 67]

I honestly don’t know how you haven’t been banned yet. Teach me your ways

It's about knowing which teams it's okay to hate.

 

[AvroArrow]

I guess this may just come down to a difference of preferences in player evaluation. I fundamentally have problems with declaring a certain player is the best XXXX in anything if you're only basing it on a sample size of this season. For a player to actually become the best overall, instead of just the best in a single season, they need to have maintained levels at or near that "best" level. It's why the "MacKinnon is the best player in the world" posts were dumb, because it was an overreaction to 1 season and playoff run.

For me to begin even entertaining the idea that Barkov is a top-5 C, he needs to finish out this year like he has and then repeat it next year.

Fair enough, you want to see a player put up impressive numbers for a longer stretch before anointing him as a top 5. I think he's taken that step this year and he will repeat his performance in the years to come. I don't see any reason to suggest that this is a fluke and unsustainable. For me the way I see it, this is him entering his 1st year of his prime and in present day I have him as a top 5.

 

[FlaPanthers11]

His highest finish was 4th and he has 1 other 5th place finish. That doesn't sound like "getting nominated for the Selke" to me, at least at the level I'd deem "best 2-way center in hockey".

Saying "just watch him" is a lazy argument. I'm not arguing that Barkov is a bad 2-way player, I'm arguing he doesn't have a case for being the best 2-way player in hockey. I'm saying he doesn't have the resume to be put over Bergeron (or even Couturier if we want to go further) as the best 2-way center in hockey.

You’re arguing that he’s not currently the best 2 way center in hockey because the media has not voted him as the best 2 way center in hockey in previous years. Do you see the issue with that logic?

Barkov is playing with Carter Verhaeghe (who has magically turned into a star overnight), Anthony Duclair, and Mason Marchment. With those elite linemates, Barkov ranks 3rd in the NHL in xGF% behind only 2 Avs. The Avs have 11 of the top 20 players in the NHL in that metric. Other than Barkov and his linemates, the next best Panther is 72nd and the next best Panther forward is 218th.

He’s going to win the Selke hands down this year provided he stays healthy and is currently 4th in Hart voting despite missing time. After he finally wins his well deserved hardware are you ok with crowning him as the league’s best two way forward?

 

[FinlandPanther]

Yes, the only reason Barkov didn't win the award was because of his team. You cracked the case! No way could it be that Barkov is just getting hilariously overrated. It's all his team's and the biased media's faults.

I'm still waiting for literally any argument for Barkov being a better 2-way center than Bergeron. Hell, I'd even be curious to hear an argument for Barkov over Couturier. Not that Barkov is having a better season this year, but Barkov has had a long enough sustained level of being a better 2-way player than Bergeron or Couturier to make it warranted to call him the best 2-way center in hockey.

Look we get it you have an agenda. You also had one for matheson. Take off the homer glasses. It’s ok.

 

[FLpanthers16]

The "Barkov is a top 5 C" narrative is one of the more bizarre and hilarious over-ratings of a player I've seen.

Haha have something to back it up lol.

 

[FLpanthers16]

Yes, the only reason Barkov didn't win the award was because of his team. You cracked the case! No way could it be that Barkov is just getting hilariously overrated. It's all his team's and the biased media's faults.

I'm still waiting for literally any argument for Barkov being a better 2-way center than Bergeron. Hell, I'd even be curious to hear an argument for Barkov over Couturier. Not that Barkov is having a better season this year, but Barkov has had a long enough sustained level of being a better 2-way player than Bergeron or Couturier to make it warranted to call him the best 2-way center in hockey.

Ohh the Barkov that dominated couts every single time they played? That couts?



But lets leave out the fact that Barkov was focused on the defensive side of things when he came into the league even said it himself, having linemates like Sean bergenheim and Brad boyes did not help.

 

[Chaos2k7]

If you are going to make a claim like "he's the best 2-way center in hockey", then yes, I am going to look back at past year stats to evaluate that. Judging players based solely on 30 game sample sizes is downright asinine.

There's a massive difference between saying "Barkov is playing like the best 2-way center in hockey this year" (which may or may not be true) and "Barkov is the best 2-way center in hockey". It's the same difference as saying "the Panthers are playing like the best team in hockey this year" and "the Panthers are the best team in hockey".



"Just watch him bro" isn't a rebuttal against what the actual results say.

The poll is who is the best two way center. Untwist the G String and give me a list of who you think has a better defensive game out of the centers that have out scored him in the past 5 years.

Or better yet give me a center better offensively than him that also won all those Selkes' in the last 5 years.

I cant name one.

Barkov has the best 200 foot game in the league.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You’re arguing that he’s not currently the best 2 way center in hockey because the media has not voted him as the best 2 way center in hockey in previous years. Do you see the issue with that logic?

Barkov is playing with Carter Verhaeghe (who has magically turned into a star overnight), Anthony Duclair, and Mason Marchment. With those elite linemates, Barkov ranks 3rd in the NHL in xGF% behind only 2 Avs. The Avs have 11 of the top 20 players in the NHL in that metric. Other than Barkov and his linemates, the next best Panther is 72nd and the next best Panther forward is 218th.

He’s going to win the Selke hands down this year provided he stays healthy and is currently 4th in Hart voting despite missing time. After he finally wins his well deserved hardware are you ok with crowning him as the league’s best two way forward?

Not at all. For a player to be considered the "best" of anything, they need to have that level of play sustained over multiple years. If he wins the hardware and maintains this level going forward, I'm completely fine with crowning him the league's best two-way forward. But he hasn't done it yet, so I'm not going to give him credit for something he hasn't accomplished.

I don't even see why this is contestable. Expecting players to maintain levels for multiple years before crowning them as better as other players is a completely reasonable approach to rating players. MacKinnon and Draisaitl weren't better players than McDavid despite having better years than him in 2019-2020.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Look we get it you have an agenda. You also had one for matheson. Take off the homer glasses. It’s ok.

Yes, I'm such a homer for....saying Patrice Bergeron (Bruins) and Sean Couturier (Flyers) are better than Barkov.

Yes, I'm a homer because I'm a PENGUINS fan saying that a BRUINS player and a FLYERS player is better than Barkov. Yes, I'm just a homer.

The mental gymnastics you have to go through to claim that a Penguins fan defending a Bruins and Flyers player is a "homer" is astounding.

 

[FLpanthers16]

You’re arguing that he’s not currently the best 2 way center in hockey because the media has not voted him as the best 2 way center in hockey in previous years. Do you see the issue with that logic?

Barkov is playing with Carter Verhaeghe (who has magically turned into a star overnight), Anthony Duclair, and Mason Marchment. With those elite linemates, Barkov ranks 3rd in the NHL in xGF% behind only 2 Avs. The Avs have 11 of the top 20 players in the NHL in that metric. Other than Barkov and his linemates, the next best Panther is 72nd and the next best Panther forward is 218th.

He’s going to win the Selke hands down this year provided he stays healthy and is currently 4th in Hart voting despite missing time. After he finally wins his well deserved hardware are you ok with crowning him as the league’s best two way forward?

This right here people!

 

[PromisedLand]

Just want to say that Matthews' name in the top 5 grinding everyone's gears (non leaf fans) makes me very happy inside

 

[Empoleon8771]

The poll is who is the best two way center. Untwist the G String and give me a list of who you think has a better defensive game out of the centers that have out scored him in the past 5 years.

Or better yet give me a center better offensively than him that also won all those Selkes' in the last 5 years.

I cant name one.

Barkov has the best 200 foot game in the league.

Couturier and Bergeron are both better defensively than Barkov and the difference offensively doesn't account for the difference.

But even if I don't feel like dying on the Couturier hill, I'd absolutely die on the Bergeron hill. Bergeron is marginally less productive (1.01 PPG vs 1.06 PPG) while being more proven defensively.

 

[ToDavid]

Matthews over Draisaitl? LMFAO

Don't worry, he tops the top 10 list of McDavid's wingers.

It is remarkable that McDavid is still contributing to >55% of his points when he's allegedly centering his own line.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Yes, I'm such a homer for....saying Patrice Bergeron (Bruins) and Sean Couturier (Flyers) are better than Barkov.

Yes, I'm a homer because I'm a PENGUINS fan saying that a BRUINS player and a FLYERS player is better than Barkov. Yes, I'm just a homer.

The mental gymnastics you have to go through to claim that a Penguins fan defending a Bruins and Flyers player is a "homer" is astounding.

Better defensively? Debatable.

You think they are better offensively? You are off your gourd.

Its best two way center, not best center in the league.