GWT: EPL - Matchweek 21 (ft. MW7)

[Jussi]

I did miss some players like Martinez, but I used the starting XI against Citeh based on that.


I don't agree, if Casemiro was better than Partey, then Real would have never sold him. I think it's close and Casemiro was definitely way better than Thomas in their prime...like no questions asked about that. But now? I would take Partey even though Casemiro brings a lot of stability to United's midfield that they didn't have since Pogba.

I went back to my list again and not sure what United fans are laughing at. Like what are the biggest mistakes there? I have half of the players classified as "close." Only ones I don't have as close are White and Odingaard, there should be no debates there at all.

This right here, is genuine HFBoards logic. It's such a rarity and cannot be reproduced elsewhere.

 

[KJS14]

Real sold Casemiro because Casemiro asked to leave. Ancelotti wanted to keep him and play him with Tchouameni. The board decided to accept his request to leave.

I guess they felt he was not a better option than any of Tchouameni, Camavinga and Valverde anymore. He is still better than Partey though and I like Partey.

I think Casemiro has been very good for United, but Partey has been better this year. I think you could argue Partey has been the best midfielder in the EPL this year (KdB and Odegaard being the other two up there).

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I think Casemiro has been very good for United, but Partey has been better this year. I think you could argue Partey has been the best midfielder in the EPL this year (KdB and Odegaard being the other two up there).

If you want to argue that Partey has been better THIS SEASON, I won't fight back.

If you tell me you would choose Partey before Casemiro in general, I would strongly disagree.

One final to play? Gimme Casemiro, despite Partey being in better form.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Martinelli = Rashford.

LOL

 

[The Abusement Park]

I did miss some players like Martinez, but I used the starting XI against Citeh based on that.


I don't agree, if Casemiro was better than Partey, then Real would have never sold him. I think it's close and Casemiro was definitely way better than Thomas in their prime...like no questions asked about that. But now? I would take Partey even though Casemiro brings a lot of stability to United's midfield that they didn't have since Pogba.

I went back to my list again and not sure what United fans are laughing at. Like what are the biggest mistakes there? I have half of the players classified as "close." Only ones I don't have as close are White and Odingaard, there should be no debates there at all.

Martinelli over Rashford I don’t agree with, especially right now. Bruno and Saka I would say is a wash. Xhaka and Fred are a wash. I agree with Odegaard over Eriksen. Case is clearly over Partey imo. Jesus the best attacker this year.

I’d agree with Zinchenko over Malacia(Shaw is better the best LB of the two teams). At this moment Saliba, Martinez, and Varane are all pretty close. But Saliba ends up being the clear best of the bunch imo. AWB under White I agree(But Dalot this year has been the best RB).

Goalies a wash. Idk I just think that the teams are pretty similar overall on paper. Good teams that have good to decent players all over but don’t have squads full of elite players like some other teams in Europe.

 

[S E P H]

Martinelli over Rashford I don’t agree with, especially right now. Bruno and Saka I would say is a wash. Xhaka and Fred are a wash. I agree with Odegaard over Eriksen. Case is clearly over Partey imo. Jesus the best attacker this year.

I’d agree with Zinchenko over Malacia(Shaw is better the best LB of the two teams). At this moment Saliba, Martinez, and Varane are all pretty close. But Saliba ends up being the clear best of the bunch imo. AWB under White I agree(But Dalot this year has been the best RB).

Goalies a wash. Idk I just think that the teams are pretty similar overall on paper. Good teams that have good to decent players all over but don’t have squads full of elite players like some other teams in Europe.

- I had Rashford and Martinelli tied, each having strength in a unique category. There's no way that Martinelli touches Rashford's finishing since the world cup, but remember he wasn't exactly good for the first three or so months of the season. Antony was your lots saving grace. But, there's no way that Rashford creates as many chances in a game as Martinelli for both himself and for his teammates.

- Shaw has had a great season, but you can't say he's been better than Zinchenko this year the entire career. If I were very conservative in my judgement, then let's consider them a wash.

- Varane has the experience, but he's ageing and lost a couple of steps. Saliba is more prone to errors since he doesn't have the number of matches, but at this point, he's better. I did mention both are very close though.

- Gabriel vs Martinez, I would still give it to Gabriel. I liked what I've seen from Martinez this season, but the bloke just scares me at set pieces as if I was a Red Devil. Both are prone to red cards, but Gabriel has cleaned a lot of mistakes from earlier in the season. I would say he's been better than Saliba post-WC and why I would have him over Martinez.

- De Gea has been very inconsistent this season if you'd ask me. A ton of horrible mistakes filled with some crazy performances. Ramsdale has had some issues, but he's coming off the NLD where he looked bloody good even if the Spurs chances were far between. I totally buy de Gea's talent level and there was a match a couple of years ago where he singlehandedly beat us. Nonetheless, I take a more consistent Ramsdale at this point.

- If Bruno was playing as a #10, I would consider it a wash between him and Odingaard. But, because he's playing on the wing, Saka's athletic attributes crush Bruno (where they are much more needed) even if I would say that Bruno has the better IQ and passing ability. I would consider Antony and Saka a wash though, Antony is the better 1v1 lad, whereas Saka is better at using his teammates.

- Still think Partey has been better than Casemiro this season, but once again I mentioned that was close.


So even in the end Arsenal has the better team on paper and my original assessment wasn't that bad at all.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I like Zinchenko (picked him in last year's fantasy draft!). I don't think there's a case for him over Shaw except for positional versatility.

 

[hatterson]

Martinez is so prone to red cards that he’s received one of them in his senior career and that was in Argentina in 2017.

 

[The Abusement Park]

- I had Rashford and Martinelli tied, each having strength in a unique category. There's no way that Martinelli touches Rashford's finishing since the world cup, but remember he wasn't exactly good for the first three or so months of the season. Antony was your lots saving grace. But, there's no way that Rashford creates as many chances in a game as Martinelli for both himself and for his teammates.

- Shaw has had a great season, but you can't say he's been better than Zinchenko this year the entire career. If I were very conservative in my judgement, then let's consider them a wash.

- Varane has the experience, but he's ageing and lost a couple of steps. Saliba is more prone to errors since he doesn't have the number of matches, but at this point, he's better. I did mention both are very close though.

- Gabriel vs Martinez, I would still give it to Gabriel. I liked what I've seen from Martinez this season, but the bloke just scares me at set pieces as if I was a Red Devil. Both are prone to red cards, but Gabriel has cleaned a lot of mistakes from earlier in the season. I would say he's been better than Saliba post-WC and why I would have him over Martinez.

- De Gea has been very inconsistent this season if you'd ask me. A ton of horrible mistakes filled with some crazy performances. Ramsdale has had some issues, but he's coming off the NLD where he looked bloody good even if the Spurs chances were far between. I totally buy de Gea's talent level and there was a match a couple of years ago where he singlehandedly beat us. Nonetheless, I take a more consistent Ramsdale at this point.

- If Bruno was playing as a #10, I would consider it a wash between him and Odingaard. But, because he's playing on the wing, Saka's athletic attributes crush Bruno (where they are much more needed) even if I would say that Bruno has the better IQ and passing ability. I would consider Antony and Saka a wash though, Antony is the better 1v1 lad, whereas Saka is better at using his teammates.

- Still think Partey has been better than Casemiro this season, but once again I mentioned that was close.


So even in the end Arsenal has the better team on paper and my original assessment wasn't that bad at all.

I don't see how you can take Zinchenko over Shaw. Shaw has consistently played at a way higher than Zinchenko ever has, even if he's had some lower-ish moments.

The only issue with Varane recently is his injury record. He was pretty dang good last year but never played. He's been healthy basically all year and been unreal all season for club and country.

As for Martinez I don't know how anyone can watch him and be worried during set pieces. It hasn't been an issue anywhere in his career. I mean he has a better aerial duel % than Gabriel this year. Also no clue where the "red card risk" is considering he literally never gets them.

I mean Bruno has been a 10 most of the season. He's been sparingly used as a RW from the start and at all.

 

[KJS14]

Martinelli = Rashford.

LOL

Hope that laugh was because Martinelli has been a step above Rashford (even if Rashford is having a good year).

Martinelli over Rashford I don’t agree with, especially right now. Bruno and Saka I would say is a wash. Xhaka and Fred are a wash. I agree with Odegaard over Eriksen. Case is clearly over Partey imo. Jesus the best attacker this year.

I’d agree with Zinchenko over Malacia(Shaw is better the best LB of the two teams). At this moment Saliba, Martinez, and Varane are all pretty close. But Saliba ends up being the clear best of the bunch imo. AWB under White I agree(But Dalot this year has been the best RB).

Goalies a wash. Idk I just think that the teams are pretty similar overall on paper. Good teams that have good to decent players all over but don’t have squads full of elite players like some other teams in Europe.

Bruno / Saka - this seemed like an odd comparison, but both are fantastic.

Xhaka / Fred - I don't know exactly how well Fred has been playing this year, but Xhaka has been unreal playing with Partey and Odegaard. I'd rather have Xhaka personally.

Partey / Casemiro - as I've said above, Partey might be the best midfielder in the whole EPL this year. At worst, I'd call this a wash, because Casemiro is a great player and has settled into United well.

Saliba / Varane / Martinez - Saliba and Varane are a step above Martinez. Saliba is easily the best of the 3 going forward as Varane ages. Saliba is 6'4" and moves and controls the ball/tempo much better than Martinez. I know Arsenal were trying to sign him, but I didn't think he was a great fit for us.

Zinchenko / Shaw - very different players, both of which fit their team better than if they traded places. Zinchenko has been immensely important in the way that Arteta wants the team to play (similar to how he was at City). I'd call it a wash, but won't argue if some had Shaw slightly higher.

I like Zinchenko (picked him in last year's fantasy draft!). I don't think there's a case for him over Shaw except for positional versatility.

Yeah, but his positional versatility is what makes him a great player in Arteta's system. I didn't really know it until watching some of the videos when we signed him, but there's a reason everyone at City said he was their best technical player. I like Tierney a lot still, but it's night and day when he's on the pitch vs Zinchenko just because how his style of play makes Arsenal's left side that much harder to deal with.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Sabila moves the ball better than Martinez? Ya no

 

[KJS14]

Sabila moves the ball better than Martinez? Ya no

He does. Sorry he's not Argentinian.

 

[bluesfan94]

Looking at the most recent starting XIs, I have it as such

De Gea = Ramsdale. De Gea the better shot stopper when he's on his game but Ramsdale's feet are important to Arsenal.
Wan-Bissaka < White. Wan-Bissaka is going through a minor renaissance but is useless going forward.
Varane = Saliba. I think Saliba is slightly better but not enough to make a meaningful difference.
Shaw < Gabriel. If Martinez were here, it would be closer, but I still rate Gabriel over Martinez.
Malacia < Zinchenko. They play different games and I could see an argument that Malacia > Zinchenko in a different system. But Zinchenko fits the system like a glove.
Casemiro > Partey. It's close on form, but Casemiro is fantastic.
Fred < Xhaka. Fred manages to be more inconsistent than peak-inconsistent Xhaka and Xhaka has been consistently brilliant this year.
Fernandes < Saka. Bruno is great, Saka is better.
Eriksen < Odegaard. Odegaard has been the best player in the Prem this year. Eriksen is good too.
Rashford > Martinelli. On form, I think you have to go Rashford. I think Martinelli will be better in a year or two.
Martial > Nketiah. Nketiah has been fantastic deputizing for Jesus, but Martial is more talented, albeit more inconsistent.

Looking at the bench, Maguire, Martinez, Antony, Garnacho, McTominay vs. Tomiyasu, Tierney, El Neny, ESR, Vieira. I think Tomiyasu > Maguire, Martinez > Tierney, ESR=Antony, Garnacho > Vieira, El Neny=McTominay.

If I was making a combined two deep, assuming everyone is healthy, I go:

Jesus/Martial
Rashford/Martinelli - Odegaard/Fernandes - Saka/Garnacho
Casemiro/Partey - Xhaka/Fred
Zinchenko/Malacia - Saliba/Gabriel - Varane/Martinez - White/Tomiyasu
Ramsdale/De Gea​

 

[East Coast Bias]

Some of you dudes are so mad Martinez chose United you’re deluded about anything about him. He chose to play for his old manager that he was tight with. Not sure how you fault him.

Rashford put up 17/7 in his age 21 season in the PL. martinelli looks promising but please. He’s not better now. Maybe he will be someday. But now? No way.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

He does. Sorry he's not Argentinian.

Sorry he doesn’t play for arsenal. I’m used to arsenal fans being the biggest joke on here. Martinez on the ball is an elite passer. Not many if any better passing cbs out there. He played in the midfield for a reason.

 

[bluesfan94]

Some of you dudes are so mad Martinez chose United you’re deluded about anything about him. He chose to play for his old manager that he was tight with. Not sure how you fault him.

Rashford put up 17/7 in his age 21 season in the PL. martinelli looks promising but please. He’s not better now. Maybe he will be someday. But now? No way.

Rashford but up 17/7 in his age 22 season, if we're being honest. He was 22 for the majority of it. In his age 21 season, he put up 10/6, which is still solid, but Martinelli, in his age 21 season, is pacing 15/4

Sabila moves the ball better than Martinez? Ya no

They're very similar on the ball, but Saliba is better defensively.

Bruno and Saka I would say is a wash.

Fernandes has 3 and 3. Saka has 6 and 7. One of them is better defensively as well, and it isn't Bruno.

Xhaka and Fred are a wash.

Now I know you're taking the piss.

I mean Bruno has been a 10 most of the season. He's been sparingly used as a RW from the start and at all.

I mean, that's fine, but he's been a worse 10 than Odegaard, and whoever is a RW is going to be worst than Saka.

But Dalot this year has been the best RB

On United, sure. Between White, Dalot, and AWB? Definitely not.

Sorry he doesn’t play for arsenal. I’m used to arsenal fans being the biggest joke on here. Martinez on the ball is an elite passer. Not many if any better passing cbs out there. He played in the midfield for a reason.

Same could be said about Ben White, then. Which I guess is a decent comparison.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Hope that laugh was because Martinelli has been a step above Rashford (even if Rashford is having a good year).


Bruno / Saka - this seemed like an odd comparison, but both are fantastic.

Xhaka / Fred - I don't know exactly how well Fred has been playing this year, but Xhaka has been unreal playing with Partey and Odegaard. I'd rather have Xhaka personally.

Partey / Casemiro - as I've said above, Partey might be the best midfielder in the whole EPL this year. At worst, I'd call this a wash, because Casemiro is a great player and has settled into United well.

Saliba / Varane / Martinez - Saliba and Varane are a step above Martinez. Saliba is easily the best of the 3 going forward as Varane ages. Saliba is 6'4" and moves and controls the ball/tempo much better than Martinez. I know Arsenal were trying to sign him, but I didn't think he was a great fit for us.

Zinchenko / Shaw - very different players, both of which fit their team better than if they traded places. Zinchenko has been immensely important in the way that Arteta wants the team to play (similar to how he was at City). I'd call it a wash, but won't argue if some had Shaw slightly higher.


Yeah, but his positional versatility is what makes him a great player in Arteta's system. I didn't really know it until watching some of the videos when we signed him, but there's a reason everyone at City said he was their best technical player. I like Tierney a lot still, but it's night and day when he's on the pitch vs Zinchenko just because how his style of play makes Arsenal's left side that much harder to deal with.

Well considering Varane and Martinez have been pretty comparable this year I'm going to say that this is very much not the truth. I do think Saliba has the potential to hit a level above Martinez but he isn't there yet.

Also Martinelli is certainly not a step above Rashford. I'd go wash but I don't really think he's done anything to prove he's a step above yet.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

They're very similar on the ball, but Saliba is better defensively.






Same could be said about Ben White, then. Which I guess is a decent comparison.

Saliba is the better player but Martinez on the ball is better. His passing is second to none.

Ben white the RB? He should be compared to Martinez’s water boy Maguire. The guy that made white take his ball and go home.

 

[bluesfan94]

Saliba is the better player but Martinez on the ball is better. His passing is second to none.

Ben white the RB? He should be compared to Martinez’s water boy Maguire. The guy that made white take his ball and go home.

Saliba's passing has been fantastic too.

White can play CB, too, and has played in the midfield, so obviously his passing must be fantastic.

Well considering Varane and Martinez have been pretty comparable this year I'm going to say that this is very much not the truth. I do think Saliba has the potential to hit a level above Martinez but he isn't there yet.

You're right, he's past that.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Fernandes has 3 and 3. Saka has 6 and 7. One of them is better defensively as well, and it isn't Bruno.

I mean Bruno's chances created are the best of any player in the PL this year outside of KDB. His goal scoring is a bit down, but he was also had been creating chances for Ronaldo who couldn't score in a brothel. Odegaard has been awesome this year, hence wash.

Now I know you're taking the piss.

I mean Freds been fine this year. Not awful not great, but I guess Xhaka is now elite I guess?

I mean, that's fine, but he's been a worse 10 than Odegaard, and whoever is a RW is going to be worst than Saka.

I mean Antony certainly looks to be someone who can compete with Saka.

On United, sure. Between White, Dalot, and AWB? Definitely not.


Same could be said about Ben White, then. Which I guess is a decent comparison.

I mean Dalot is at minimum a wash with White.

 

[hatterson]

Also using United’s most recent starting XI is intentionally ignoring that the only reason Shaw has been at CB was due to a rash of injuries and Martinez coming back from the WC and getting back into the swing of club stuff.

Yea of course you’d rate a full time CB above a LB deputizing at CB for only the third time in his career.

If you put Varane/Martinez as your CB duo and Shaw as the LB, then you have CB pairs that are pretty close, an RB matchup that’s between two deeply underwhelming players where one is good defensively and a black hole going forward and the other is pretty mediocre at everything, and an LB matchup where Shaw is clearly better.

Overall, assuming they’re playing normal starting XIs, United has a slight edge in the back line and front three and Arsenal have an edge in midfield. United’s bench is also much deeper overall and they can call on a far wider variety of players than Arsenal can.

United started the season awful but since the beginning of September both teams have earned the same number of points, including United winning the head to head matchup.

 

[bluesfan94]

I mean Freds been fine this year. Not awful not great, but I guess Xhaka is now elite I guess?

Not elite, but better than Fred.

I mean Antony certainly looks to be someone who can compete with Saka.

At spinning in circles, perhaps. He's a year and a half older, isn't a locked in starter, and hasn't been as good. Antony has a similar scoring rate as Fabio Vieira.

I mean Dalot is at minimum a wash with White.

If the only category is letters in last name, I guess I can buy that.

I mean Bruno's chances created are the best of any player in the PL this year outside of KDB.

Not according to this: Premier League most chances created: Harry Kane enters top 10 with two Arsenal men
.2 chances more per 90 with 5 fewer goals.

If you put Varane/Martinez as your CB duo and Shaw as the LB, then you have CB pairs that are pretty close, an RB matchup that’s between two deeply underwhelming players where one is good defensively and a black hole going forward and the other is pretty mediocre at everything, and an LB matchup where Shaw is clearly better.

Clearly is a stretch. Shaw and Zinchenko are different players and Zinchenko is better in this system than Shaw would be. Also, White is only deeply underwhelming if you haven't watched him play.

 

[bluesfan94]

Overall, assuming they’re playing normal starting XIs, United has a slight edge in the back line and front three and Arsenal have an edge in midfield. United’s bench is also much deeper overall and they can call on a far wider variety of players than Arsenal can.

I don't really see how United has a better backline, especially considering goals against records this season. Front 3 is even goofier. If everyone's healthy, there's an argument no one from United starts. I mean, Rashford has one more goal and assist than Martinelli and has been on an unbelievable run of form to get that. Take out penalties and they're even in goals.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Saliba's passing has been fantastic too.

White can play CB, too, and has played in the midfield, so obviously his passing must be fantastic.

Not very well.

 

[The Abusement Park]

At spinning in circles, perhaps. He's a year and a half older, isn't a locked in starter, and hasn't been as good. Antony has a similar scoring rate as Fabio Vieira.

Not a locked in starter? Huh...?

If the only category is letters in last name, I guess I can buy that.

Not according to this: Premier League most chances created: Harry Kane enters top 10 with two Arsenal men
.2 chances more per 90 with 5 fewer goals.

Ahh my bad I missed Trippier. Still ahead of Odegaard. Again. Wash.

I'm not here trying to say United is clearly better. They aren't. But on paper the teams are pretty damn comparable.