Eligible Receivergate - Thoughts?

[daver]

And if it is that unusual, then the ref should've made sure to clarify with them who was actually reporting as what. Or to simply call out that it's an issue when multiple linemen trying to report at once.

None of that happened. The refs made the Lions think they were in the clear to run that play.

I have no issue with the Lions trying to use some gamemanship if the rules allow it, and perhaps the evidence is clear that the ref acknowledged #68, not #70, and made a mistake. All that being said, the Lions could have made sure that they got want they wanted knowing that their goal was to create confusion; it just so happened it created some confusion with the ref.

Send #68 on his own to the ref and this doesn't happen. Instead they were hoping that the Cowboys would be confused and focus on #70 and effectively cheat their way to two points.

It's too bad it worked out as it did but yes, IMO, the Lions can wear some of the blame, not all, or most, but some.

#70 making an effort to make sure he got noticed by the ref, and the Cowboys, is the smoking gun.

 

[GKJ]

The Lions did not confuse the referee. They warned them ahead of time what they were looking to do. It’s the referee’s job to not be confused.

 

[daver]

The Lions did not confuse the referee. They warned them ahead of time what they were looking to do. It’s the referee’s job to not be confused.

We don't know what exactly what was said ahead of time.

We do know the Lions were looking to create confusion for the Cowboys. Was it illegal for them to do that? Doesn't sound like it but they were looking to get some kind of advantage, one that could be viewed as unsportsmanlike.

Does this mean they deserved the penalty or to lose? No. But perhaps an intentional deception blew up in their face.

 

[GKJ]

We don't know what exactly what was said ahead of time.

We do know the Lions were looking to create confusion for the Cowboys. Was it illegal for them to do that? Doesn't sound like it but they were looking to get some kind of advantage, one that could be viewed as unsportsmanlike.

Does this mean they deserved the penalty or to lose? No. But perhaps an intentional deception blew up in their face.

Well what else would they be trying to do telling them what play they were running? Everyone has seen the tackle-eligible play before, they frankly shouldn’t even need to do it.

Unsportsmanlike, what? What’s that even supposed to mean here? The defense gets told about it. Presumably with accurate information.

No, it did not blow up in their face. Incompetence amongst officiating did that. This wasn’t some judgment call, this was standard fare procedure and specific situations that they’re trained for.

 

[daver]

Well what else would they be trying to do telling them what play they were running? Everyone has seen the tackle-eligible play before, they frankly shouldn’t even need to do it.

What did they say to the ref before the game exactly? Did they say:

"We are going to have #70 report multiple times during the game in the hope that it will create confusion when we actually want to run the tackle-eligible play on the goal line because it will be #68 who actually reports"?

If not, then having #70 jog towards the ref at that point of the game clearly created confusion with the ref as he was staring straight at him as he jogged towards and then pointed at him presumably to ask if he was reporting again.

At that point, I think the Lions want to make sure the ref got it right.

Unsportsmanlike, what? What’s that even supposed to mean here? The defense gets told about it. Presumably with accurate information.

The whole point of the exercise of having #70 report multiple times and make a point to join two other lineman in the group Lions was to create confusion whether it was #70 or #68 who had to be covered when the play ran. Presumably, the Lions hoped that because it was now #68, and not #70, that would throw the Cowboys off a bit.

No, it did not blow up in their face. Incompetence amongst officiating did that. This wasn’t some judgment call, this was standard fare procedure and specific situations that they’re trained for.

Incompetent reffing and a team getting bitten by some gamemanship aren't mutally exclusive.

 

[GKJ]

What did they say to the ref before the game exactly? Did they say:

"We are going to have #70 report multiple times during the game in the hope that it will create confusion when we actually want to run the tackle-eligible play on the goal line because it will be #68 who actually reports"?

If not, then having #70 jog towards the ref at that point of the game clearly created confusion with the ref as he was staring straight at him as he jogged towards and then pointed at him presumably to ask if he was reporting again.

At that point, I think the Lions want to make sure the ref got it right.

My guess is that they told the official exactly what they practiced to confirm that they had the play right and was legal.

The whole point of the exercise of having #70 report multiple times and make a point to join two other lineman in the group Lions was to create confusion whether it was #70 or #68 who had to be covered when the play ran. Presumably, the Lions hoped that because it was now #68, and not #70, that would throw the Cowboys off a bit.

Any team is free to run any legal play they see fit. It's literally the official's job to understand and apply the rules and procedures, and more than the officials, the capital-R Referee specifically. This was his job, it doesn't matter if the entire city of Detroit was on the field. He had a simple task, and it was to acknowledge that 68 was eligible, and announce as much.

This is like the reverse of when they changed the rules on this, because Belichick and McDaniels found the loophole and they had all kinds of dudes reporting eligible and ineligible and coming in and out of the tackle box and whatever else during a playoff game - not one play - and THAT was confusing as shit. It sure as hell confused the Ravens, who I guess should have known better that running backs can line up in the slot and report as ineligible, and not have enough linemen and as long as the right number of players are on the line of scrimmage, even though that was something that never actually happens. And it was a big to-do and major pain in the ass to figure out as a viewer and opponent, but you know who never got confused? The officials.

Incompetent reffing and a team getting bitten by some gamemanship aren't mutally exclusive.

It still doesn't matter. You control what you can control. The Lions can't control if the referee gets confused after telling them exactly what they intended to do, that's on the league for hiring a dipshit referee who they've already failed to adequately hold accountable.

 

[John Price]

the crew will work this Saturday's Ravens game lol.

no retribution.

 

[izlez]

I don't know how it is anyone's responsibility to be on guard at all time to make sure another person doesn't suddenly forget the English language

 

[daver]

My guess is that they told the official exactly what they practiced to confirm that they had the play right and was legal.

It still doesn't matter. You control what you can control. The Lions can't control if the referee gets confused after telling them exactly what they intended to do, that's on the league for hiring a dipshit referee who they've already failed to adequately hold accountable.

If we agree that the Lions were purposely trying to confuse the Cowboys by sending three linemen to the ref then everything else is subjective.

You feel the Lions could not have done anything different, I feel they brought it on themselves (potentially) by not doing something after the ref announced #70 was eligible.

 

[GKJ]

If we agree that the Lions were purposely trying to confuse the Cowboys by sending three linemen to the ref then everything else is subjective.

You feel the Lions could not have done anything different, I feel they brought it on themselves (potentially) by not doing something after the ref announced #70 was eligible.

They should not have needed to do anything different. It is not subjective, that is what the referee - specifically - is responsible for. Not even anyone else on that crew. The Cowboys getting confused would be their own problem, confusing the opponent is like a basic logical concept of football. They shouldn't have to listen to the ref, they already told him - more than once - what they were doing. But they will now, and so will everyone else since we evidently have a billion dollar sport who can't trust people to cognitively decipher voices of guys wearing giant two-digit numbers.

 

[daver]

They should not have needed to do anything different. It is not subjective, that is what the referee - specifically - is responsible for. Not even anyone else on that crew. The Cowboys getting confused would be their own problem, confusing the opponent is like a basic logical concept of football. They shouldn't have to listen to the ref, they already told him - more than once - what they were doing. But they will now, and so will everyone else since we evidently have a billion dollar sport who can't trust people to cognitively decipher voices of guys wearing giant two-digit numbers

If you don't think that #70 rushing out specifically to create confusion for the Cowboys could in no way create confusion for the ref that's OK. I think it did.

Here is the scenario, the Lions call the play during the timeout. Part of the play is to rush #70 out there to confuse the Cowboys. If the ref has been told, before the game, that the Lions plan to run a tackle eligible play close to the goalline, then he probably thinks it is #70 again reporting, especially since he is rushing out at the last second.

From that moment on, it is not entirely clear that #68 makes sure the ref knows it is him, and not #70 who is eligible. Maybe he didn't make a good enough gesture.

Regardless, why the Lions still ran the play after #70 was announced in the stadium is a legitimate question. Did they feel it was the refs problem that he didn't get the message?

Do you think it would have been fair if the refs let the play stand?

 

[StreetHawk]

From that moment on, it is not entirely clear that #68 makes sure the ref knows it is him, and not #70 who is eligible. Maybe he didn't make a good enough gesture.

Regardless, why the Lions still ran the play after #70 was announced in the stadium is a legitimate question. Did they feel it was the refs problem that he didn't get the message?

Do you think it would have been fair if the refs let the play stand?

1) Have not seen a shot of the front of #70 coming on and if he did a gesture that is typical of reporting. Would typically be using both hands to look like he's wiping away crumbs off his shirt. Detroit wanted it to seem to the D that 70 was the eligible. Did he simulate the hand gesture for OL reporting when he was coming on? Could not see from the angle we had of him coming onto the field. From the replay, no gesture from Decker. Seems like it was just verbal from him which is permitted.
2) I saw a video sync up the audio of the announcement and it looks like the Lions were still in the huddle. Announcement finished just as they were able to break the huddle. Most likely the reason for them not hearing it.
3) No, can't let the play stand and pick up the flag.

 

[daver]

1) Have not seen a shot of the front of #70 coming on and if he did a gesture that is typical of reporting. Would typically be using both hands to look like he's wiping away crumbs off his shirt. Detroit wanted it to seem to the D that 70 was the eligible. Did he simulate the hand gesture for OL reporting when he was coming on? Could not see from the angle we had of him coming onto the field. From the replay, no gesture from Decker. Seems like it was just verbal from him which is permitted.
2) I saw a video sync up the audio of the announcement and it looks like the Lions were still in the huddle. Announcement finished just as they were able to break the huddle. Most likely the reason for them not hearing it.
3) No, can't let the play stand and pick up the flag.

I will be honest with you. I am not convinced it was announced or if it was, when it was announced.

The clip in the OP doesn't seem to be synched wit the actual play on the field. Listening to the CBS broadcast you cannot hear anything other than the announcer trying to rev up the crowd to make noise.

Do you have a link to the video sync?

If it was announced just as the Lions were breaking their huddle, presumably the Cowboys were notified before the announcement. Is that enough time for the Cowboys to make an adjustment? Was the whole point of having #70 run out at the last second to ensure the Cowboys would have very little time to adjust to being notified that #68 reported. It seemed like the ref was in a hurry to get to his position so perhaps the Lions left it too late to pull off the charade and it cost them.

 

[GKJ]

If you don't think that #70 rushing out specifically to create confusion for the Cowboys could in no way create confusion for the ref that's OK. I think it did.

Here is the scenario, the Lions call the play during the timeout. Part of the play is to rush #70 out there to confuse the Cowboys. If the ref has been told, before the game, that the Lions plan to run a tackle eligible play close to the goalline, then he probably thinks it is #70 again reporting, especially since he is rushing out at the last second.

From that moment on, it is not entirely clear that #68 makes sure the ref knows it is him, and not #70 who is eligible. Maybe he didn't make a good enough gesture.

Regardless, why the Lions still ran the play after #70 was announced in the stadium is a legitimate question. Did they feel it was the refs problem that he didn't get the message?

Do you think it would have been fair if the refs let the play stand?

If they announce the wrong number, then no, it shouldn’t.

The Lions can’t change the play because they don’t have a timeout. They can only convince the official to blow the play dead and reset the play clock.

The video is very clear that 68 is talking to the ref and 70 is not.

 

[StreetHawk]

If they announce the wrong number, then no, it shouldn’t.

The Lions can’t change the play because they don’t have a timeout. They can only convince the official to blow the play dead and reset the play clock.

The video is very clear that 68 is talking to the ref and 70 is not.

They purposely had Sewell go with Decker and had Skipper go late to the official in the hopes that Dallas would think it was someone other than Decker since it's kind of easy to mistake 58 and 68 if you don't hear the first sixty/fifty correctly and only hear the 8 announced, as they are both the OT so maybe trying to hope Dallas heard it incorrectly. And use Skipper as the guy who had reported in the game as eligible to cause more confusion. A lot of effort in the hopes that Dallas doesn't hear #68 get announced.

 

[GKJ]

They purposely had Sewell go with Decker and had Skipper go late to the official in the hopes that Dallas would think it was someone other than Decker since it's kind of easy to mistake 58 and 68 if you don't hear the first sixty/fifty correctly and only hear the 8 announced, as they are both the OT so maybe trying to hope Dallas heard it incorrectly. And use Skipper as the guy who had reported in the game as eligible to cause more confusion. A lot of effort in the hopes that Dallas doesn't hear #68 get announced.

It doesn’t matter. It’s the referee’s job to get it right, and we can see who is talking to him. This doesn’t need to be the Zapruder film.

 

[hatterson]

This is how I feel:

 

[hatterson]

It doesn’t matter. It’s the referee’s job to get it right, and we can see who is talking to him. This doesn’t need to be the Zapruder film.

We can see exactly where the referee is looking and he even points at the player and nods in a “yep, I see you coming in to report as eligible as you’ve done several times already”

Instead of waving the ref off or otherwise correcting him (because that would bring attention to it) #70 continues to jog towards the ref at the same time the other two linemen casually walk towards him.

You keep going on about how “it’s the referees job to get it right”, but it’s also the Lions job to clearly communicate to the referee who it is who is reporting eligible.

Should the referee have taken an extra second when three linemen are coming towards him in order to get it right? Yes obviously. Should the Lions have also ensured it was abundantly clear to the one dude who mattered who was eligible? Also yes obviously. And no, a conversation in pre game warmups 4-5 hours earlier doesn’t count.

 

[GKJ]

We can see exactly where the referee is looking and he even points at the player and nods in a “yep, I see you coming in to report as eligible as you’ve done several times already”

Instead of waving the ref off or otherwise correcting him (because that would bring attention to it) #70 continues to jog towards the ref at the same time the other two linemen casually walk towards him.

You keep going on about how “it’s the referees job to get it right”, but it’s also the Lions job to clearly communicate to the referee who it is who is reporting eligible.

Should the referee have taken an extra second when three linemen are coming towards him in order to get it right? Yes obviously. Should the Lions have also ensured it was abundantly clear to the one dude who mattered who was eligible? Also yes obviously. And no, a conversation in pre game warmups 4-5 hours earlier doesn’t count.

He did clearly communicate, he said he was reporting. If one person says they are reporting eligible, then that’s it. Doesn’t matter what other song and dance is going on. It’s not the players job to enforce the officiating.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

the crew will work this Saturday's Ravens game lol.

no retribution.

NFL is all about accountability, except for when they don't want to be, which is most of the time.

 

[hatterson]

He did clearly communicate, he said he was reporting. If one person says they are reporting eligible, then that’s it. Doesn’t matter what other song and dance is going on. It’s not the players job to enforce the officiating.

By his own admission he simply walked up and said “report” however, importantly, that occurred *after* the referee had already pointed to and acknowledged #70 as eligible. Given the loud crowd, it’s very easy for the ref to miss that or to not realize who said it.

It easily could have looked like #70, who was jogging on, was making the hands up and down in front of his chest “I’m reporting” motion.

Again, no one is saying that the proper playing didn’t say the word “report” the issue is that it is the players responsibility to *clearly* identify to the referee that he’s reporting. The Lions absolutely failed to do that. That doesn’t mean the referee is blame free, he clearly should have taken time to verify what was going on, but the Lions also get a healthy share of the blame.

 

[hatterson]

the crew will work this Saturday's Ravens game lol.

no retribution.

How many crews does the NFL even have? Given the schedule congestion without Thursday and Monday games, do they even have enough to fully bench a team on the last week?

 

[DaaaaB's]

I've never seen so many excuses made for a ref who blatantly f***ed up.

 

[GKJ]

By his own admission he simply walked up and said “report” however, importantly, that occurred *after* the referee had already pointed to and acknowledged #70 as eligible. Given the loud crowd, it’s very easy for the ref to miss that or to not realize who said it.

It easily could have looked like #70, who was jogging on, was making the hands up and down in front of his chest “I’m reporting” motion.

Again, no one is saying that the proper playing didn’t say the word “report” the issue is that it is the players responsibility to *clearly* identify to the referee that he’s reporting. The Lions absolutely failed to do that. That doesn’t mean the referee is blame free, he clearly should have taken time to verify what was going on, but the Lions also get a healthy share of the blame.

Well then it should’ve been a good thing that the person reporting eligible was right in front of his face, because he doesn’t have any other reason to be there.

And people gotta cut it with the loud stadium nonsense, if the quarterback can communicate to 10 guys in a huddle, the referee can hear someone speaking directly to him. Just listen to the broadcast. It’s the Jerry Dome, place ain’t ever been loud.

 

[Troy McClure]

How many crews does the NFL even have? Given the schedule congestion without Thursday and Monday games, do they even have enough to fully bench a team on the last week?

This crew was always going to work this weekend. Every team is playing. The playoffs are where we’ll see what the league thinks of them.