Eligible Receivergate - Thoughts?

[daver]

This "create confusion" stuff is insane. You create confusion on every play by not telling the other team what play you are running. You know who does know what play you are running? The people you directly tell it to. Because they understand how words work.

This goes both ways.

The ref acknowledged that #70 was the guy who reported to the Lions by pointing at him after #70 waved his hand. Then this was then announced. What part of "I guess we f***ed up and confused the ref with our deception" didn't the Lions understand?

Maybe it is too late at that point to stop the play unless you have a TO so you either try to change the play once you hear the announcement and likely run out of time or run the play and hope it doesn't get caught or you can plead your case with refs.

 

[GKJ]

The NFL has specific eligible formation and reporting rules to limit the type of confusion that’s created.

Causing confusion through pre-snap motion or weird formation is fine. Causing confusion over who is eligible to catch a pass or even go downfield is not something the NFL wants. Similar to how they don’t let 20 people stand in the huddle and then run to the sideline leaving only the 11 you want.

The NFL wants to give the defense a chance to know what the personnel is and who is eligible and ineligible on a given play and prepare the defense appropriately.




That’s always been my stance regarding Allen. He got confused and didn’t take time to sort it out. He and his team have also made a number of other big game altering errors (including on the drive before this). Fire him.

My point has always been from the Lions standpoint. They tried to create confusion and managed to create confusion. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

They were given a gift on the previous drive, and then had two more chances to succeed on a two point conversion or do the more intelligent thing and kick the xp. They repeatedly chose to shoot themselves in the foot instead.

We’re not talking about other plays though, we’re talking about this play. I know we already had Cowboys fans here who predictably tried to make it about overcoming all of the other errors. Not kicking the extra point after all that is the stupid game, stupid prize.

Still doesn't change the fact that #58 and #70 were also in on the "play" as decoys. Did they also practice #70 waving his hand as he did before but covering themselves under the ruse that this was supposed to be only signaling to his teammate to come off (as he beelines towards the ref).

Maybe the ref decides that this is too much deception by the Lions and are putting too much pressure on him to get things straight before giving enough time to notify the Cowboys. He decides that #70 has waved at him, he confirms he is the one who reported with a point, then ignores #68 and makes the announcement.

Maybe the ref knew the Lions were going to send multiple guys to him and decides they are waiting too long to report so he goes with whoever signals to him first which was #70. The Lions clearly want to push this to the very last second to max out the confusion.

There is simply a lot more to this than the ref confusing #68 for #70.

You seem to think that only one party here can be at fault. I get that the NFL would rather have it viewed as there guy handled it by the book and not remotely acknowledge that the ref "could" have done things differently.

That’s because only one party is at fault. Until they pass a rule that says 3 players cannot be near the referee, there was nothing wrong with doing that. The referee getting confused is his fault and nobody else’s. The players cannot be held responsible for upholding standards of officiating.

 

[daver]

He went up to the ref and said "I am eligible".

There is nothing confusing to the ref whatsoever. The potential confusion comes from people not in the conversation making assumptions. The idea that the statement "I am eligible" is confusing to the person that it is being directed to is insane.

Did he wait to see if the ref confirmed him as reporting? Kind of important when you send not just one, but two other lineman towards the ref, one of whom also signaled he was reporting in the same manner that he did multiple times during the game.

At this point, we have no idea what #68 clearly did or say. As much as the NFL wants to protect their refs and admit nothing, the Lions want to appear to be the complete victims.

 

[izlez]

This goes both ways.

The ref acknowledged that #70 was the guy who reported to the Lions by pointing at him after #70 waved his hand. Then this was then announced. What part of "I guess we f***ed up and confused the ref with our deception" didn't the Lions understand?

Maybe it is too late at that point to stop the play unless you have a TO so you either try to change the play once you hear the announcement and likely run out of time or run the play and hope it doesn't get caught or you can plead your case with refs.

I tune out messages over the PA speakers all the time, because I know they are not for me.

When somebody walks up to me and says something to my face, I listen to it.

Why would the Lions be listening to their own message being relayed? That is not a message intended for them

 

[daver]

That’s because only one party is at fault. Until they pass a rule that says 3 players cannot be near the referee, there was nothing wrong with doing that. The referee getting confused is his fault and nobody else’s. The players cannot be held responsible for upholding standards of officiating.

How about a rule that says you cannot have a lineman signal that he is reporting as he makes a direct path to the ref only to then not confirm verbally? Which we do not know for sure is what actually happened.

How about a rule that says you have to report by a particular time. It seems to put pressure on the ref to make sure he notifies the other team before the ball is snapped.

The ref says #70 reported. The Lions say #68 reported. The evidence shows that of the three linemen who clearly were approaching the ref, #70 gave the clearest signal. #68 maybe makes a one handed swipe on his jersey but maybe the ref thinks that is part of the subterfuge. We have no idea what was said or not said.

To think that the Lions perhaps didn't contribute to this is unreasonable.

 

[daver]

I tune out messages over the PA speakers all the time, because I know they are not for me.

When somebody walks up to me and says something to my face, I listen to it.

Why would the Lions be listening to their own message being relayed? That is not a message intended for them

This is secondary and even maybe irrelevant. The NFL says #70 reported. The visual shows the ref pointing at #70 after #70 came onto the field making the exact same gesture (a raised hand) as he did before when he reported.

So the ref has confirmed that #70 has reported and is moving away to notify the Cowboys. #68 may have said "report" but the ref did not confirm him so you can argue at that point the Lions have to adjust their play.

I think there is some rule tightening that is needed here. Make it illegal to send decoys and figure out how much time is needed to fairly notify the other team.

 

[hatterson]

It is the player's responsibility to report to the referee and to confirm that the referee has acknowledged his reporting, otherwise the team is at risk of running an illegal formation.

Allen screwed up the reporting part because he saw #70 running to him with his hand on his chest and assumed he was reporting. Obviously that assumption was bad and Allen should be canned for that (among many other things)

The Lions (#68 and 70) screwed up the confirming part because, despite Allen pointing towards #70 and nodding in acknowledgement of him reporting, they did not do anything to correct him. #70 didn't waive his hands in a "no, it's not me" gesture. #68 didn't say "hey man, it's me, not #70 who is reporting. Just wanted to confirm that since you just pointed at #70"

 

[daver]

It is the player's responsibility to report to the referee and to confirm that the referee has acknowledged his reporting, otherwise the team is at risk of running an illegal formation.

Allen screwed up the reporting part because he saw #70 running to him with his hand on his chest and assumed he was reporting. Obviously that assumption was bad and Allen should be canned for that (among many other things)

The Lions (#68 and 70) screwed up the confirming part because, despite Allen pointing towards #70 and nodding in acknowledgement of him reporting, they did not do anything to correct him. #70 didn't waive his hands in a "no, it's not me" gesture. #68 didn't say "hey man, it's me, not #70 who is reporting. Just wanted to confirm that since you just pointed at #70"

#70 made the exact same hand gesture as he made earlier when he reported. I don't see a hand on chest but this is a minor point.

I think the timing comes into play here where the ref feels he needs to notify the Cowboys and maybe decides it is too late for clarification; perhaps saying to himself, don't try to get too cute with this reporting thing.

As there is no rule on the timing aspect, there has been no comment on that by the NFL.

It is also telling that the Lions haven't said that #68 got confirmation from the ref, only that he said "Report".

To comment that while the ref maybe could have done it differently (maybe not if he thought it was too late for reporting clarifications), the Lions should have been aware they were playing with fire a bit by deliberately having #70 wave his hand as he ran at the ref; "MAKE SURE THE REF CONFIRMS #68!" should have been hammered into their heads.

 

[GKJ]

How about a rule that says you cannot have a lineman signal that he is reporting as he makes a direct path to the ref only to then not confirm verbally? Which we do not know for sure is what actually happened.

How about a rule that says you have to report by a particular time. It seems to put pressure on the ref to make sure he notifies the other team before the ball is snapped.

The ref says #70 reported. The Lions say #68 reported. The evidence shows that of the three linemen who clearly were approaching the ref, #70 gave the clearest signal. #68 maybe makes a one handed swipe on his jersey but maybe the ref thinks that is part of the subterfuge. We have no idea what was said or not said.

To think that the Lions perhaps didn't contribute to this is unreasonable.

Allen already acknowledged to the pool reporter in ‘that conversation’ that 70 reported. So whatever grand performance 70 is doing on the field, the official is saying he is going off what he is told and not what somebody is signaling. Of course, the surest sign that you’re reporting is actually saying it.

There was a video going around about the announcement, but people are questioning if it’s real. I’ve listened video the NFL has up, and I can’t hear one. Joe Buck says it in the broadcast that Skipper is in as an extra lineman, but never says he’s eligible. Allen does not make mention of an announcement, only the ‘conversation with the defensive line.’ I don’t know off-hand what the rule is about the announcement, but best I can tell, unless Decker follows Allen to the line and perhaps makes it obvious what the play is, there’s no way to know that Allen has the wrong guy.

Dallas had called time out and the whistle to signal the ready for play had not been done, so the pressure on the referee to make the announcement or tell the defense does not apply. If there’s pressure on the referee, it is his own doing.

The Lions are only at fault if they did something against the rules. There’s no clear or obvious evidence that they did. If you want to change the rule, then change the rule.

 

[hatterson]

Allen already acknowledged to the pool reporter in ‘that conversation’ that 70 reported. So whatever grand performance 70 is doing on the field, the official is saying he is going off what he is told and not what somebody is signaling. Of course, the surest sign that you’re reporting is actually saying it.

There was a video going around about the announcement, but people are questioning if it’s real. I’ve listened video the NFL has up, and I can’t hear one. Joe Buck says it in the broadcast that Skipper is in as an extra lineman, but never says he’s eligible. Allen does not make mention of an announcement, only the ‘conversation with the defensive line.’ I don’t know off-hand what the rule is about the announcement, but best I can tell, unless Decker follows Allen to the line and perhaps makes it obvious what the play is, there’s no way to know that Allen has the wrong guy.

Dallas had called time out and the whistle to signal the ready for play had not been done, so the pressure on the referee to make the announcement or tell the defense does not apply. If there’s pressure on the referee, it is his own doing.

The Lions are only at fault if they did something against the rules. There’s no clear or obvious evidence that they did. If you want to change the rule, then change the rule.

In the NFL announcement video at ~36 seconds you can see Allen reach to his belt like he's turning his mic on, make the hands in front of chest motion and point at #70, and then reach back to his belt to turn his mic back off. They don't have the audio from the game/stadium, but that lines up with a public announcement being made.

The rules the Lions violated is the illegal formation, ineligible man downfield, and illegal touching rules. They lined up in a formation that would normally be illegal. In order to make it legal, they needed to change the eligibility of #68 from ineligible to eligible. They have the responsibility to clearly communicate this to the official and confirm it. They maybe sorta did the first part if you can call it clear but they definitely didn't do the second part.

There's a video of a Dolphins player from a year or two ago reporting. He screams "ref" while making the motion, turns back to the line, then maybe notices the ref didn't identify him, so does it again. *That* is clearly communicating and confirming it. Quickly doing a motion and then walking over and saying "report" once while the referee is nodding and point at another player is absolutely not clearly reporting as eligible.

 

[daver]

Dallas had called time out and the whistle to signal the ready for play had not been done, so the pressure on the referee to make the announcement or tell the defense does not apply. If there’s pressure on the referee, it is his own doing.

Fair enough. Not disputing that the some blame can possibly be placed on the ref. That the NFL is doing their best to brush this off is not surprising.

Also not surprising are the Lions not acknowledging their trickery, including #70 signaling as he runs to the ref. The ref saw this and pointed at him, and then we have no idea what #70 did then when the ref pointed at him other than continue to run at him. Did he make a face gesture that could have been misunderstood?

If you don't think that opens the slightest door to a miscommunication I am not sure what to tell you.

If the whole point wasn't subterfuge then the Lions likely do make an effort to confirm that the ref got it right.

 

[GKJ]

In the NFL announcement video at ~36 seconds you can see Allen reach to his belt like he's turning his mic on, make the hands in front of chest motion and point at #70, and then reach back to his belt to turn his mic back off. They don't have the audio from the game/stadium, but that lines up with a public announcement being made.

This is the video posted by the league. If there was an announcement then you can hear it. I do not but someone can say if they do, it is not edited.

The rules the Lions violated is the illegal formation, ineligible man downfield, and illegal touching rules. They lined up in a formation that would normally be illegal. In order to make it legal, they needed to change the eligibility of #68 from ineligible to eligible. They have the responsibility to clearly communicate this to the official and confirm it. They maybe sorta did the first part if you can call it clear but they definitely didn't do the second part.

There's a video of a Dolphins player from a year or two ago reporting. He screams "ref" while making the motion, turns back to the line, then maybe notices the ref didn't identify him, so does it again. *That* is clearly communicating and confirming it. Quickly doing a motion and then walking over and saying "report" once while the referee is nodding and point at another player is absolutely not clearly reporting as eligible.

Hopefully the coaches bitched that ref out and sent a complaint to the league for fixing a mistake they should not have been compelled to be responsible for.

 

[daver]

In the NFL announcement video at ~36 seconds you can see Allen reach to his belt like he's turning his mic on, make the hands in front of chest motion and point at #70, and then reach back to his belt to turn his mic back off. They don't have the audio from the game/stadium, but that lines up with a public announcement being made.

The rules the Lions violated is the illegal formation, ineligible man downfield, and illegal touching rules. They lined up in a formation that would normally be illegal. In order to make it legal, they needed to change the eligibility of #68 from ineligible to eligible. They have the responsibility to clearly communicate this to the official and confirm it. They maybe sorta did the first part if you can call it clear but they definitely didn't do the second part.

There's a video of a Dolphins player from a year or two ago reporting. He screams "ref" while making the motion, turns back to the line, then maybe notices the ref didn't identify him, so does it again. *That* is clearly communicating and confirming it. Quickly doing a motion and then walking over and saying "report" once while the referee is nodding and point at another player is absolutely not clearly reporting as eligible.

So the announcement is clearly made that #70 is eligible. The play clock has not started so there is plenty of time for the Lions to get the refs attention without fear of running out of time and getting a penalty.

I guess every single Lion player and coach can claim they didn't hear the announcement but is that reasonable?

Is it reasonable to think that every Lion player and coach was too busy giggling to themselves about their subterfuge to think that maybe it would be important to make sure the ref got it right especially given the actions of #70?

 

[GKJ]

Fair enough. Not disputing that the some blame can possibly be placed on the ref. That the NFL is doing their best to brush this off is not surprising.

Also not surprising are the Lions not acknowledging their trickery, including #70 signaling as he runs to the ref. The ref saw this and pointed at him, and then we have no idea what #70 did then when the ref pointed at him other than continue to run at him. Did he make a face gesture that could have been misunderstood?

If you don't think that opens the slightest door to a miscommunication I am not sure what to tell you.

If the whole point wasn't subterfuge then the Lions likely do make an effort to confirm that the ref got it right.

I’m not saying it can’t open up for miscommunication, I’m saying it’s the referee’s job for there never to be one. By verbally reporting, there shouldn’t be. It has to be right the first time, every time, or else blow everything dead.

I think what really happened he had a brain fart and got muscle memory saying ‘70’ and doesn’t have the stones to admit it.

 

[daver]

This is the video posted by the league. If there was an announcement then you can hear it. I do not but someone can say if they do, it is not edited.

The radio broadcast caught it. See video in the OP.

 

[daver]

I’m not saying it can’t open up for miscommunication, I’m saying it’s the referee’s job for there never to be one. By verbally reporting, there shouldn’t be. It has to be right the first time, every time, or else blow everything dead.

I think what really happened he had a brain fart and got muscle memory saying ‘70’ and doesn’t have the stones to admit it.

I think he went with #70 because #70 made the clearest visual signal. Then we have no idea how the verbal communication went after that.

You maybe right too though.

Both sides are obviously going to play things up to make themselves look innocent though.

 

[GKJ]

I think he went with #70 because #70 made the clearest visual signal. Then we have no idea how the verbal communication went after that.

You maybe right too though.

Both sides are obviously going to play things up to make themselves look innocent though.

Allen himself said he acknowledged the verbal report though, unless he’s just lying about that too.

Which if he is, he won’t have a job next year.

 

[hatterson]

I’m not saying it can’t open up for miscommunication, I’m saying it’s the referee’s job for there never to be one. By verbally reporting, there shouldn’t be. It has to be right the first time, every time, or else blow everything dead.

I think what really happened he had a brain fart and got muscle memory saying ‘70’ and doesn’t have the stones to admit it.

The referee very clearly points at #70 and nods his head to acknowledge that he believes #70 is reporting eligible.

We don't know when #68 verbally said he was reporting. Maybe he's in the middle of saying it right here:

In which case it would be very easy for the ref, who already believes #70 is attempting to report, to think that it's #70 who is actually saying something.

The truth is we don't know exactly what was said when. Yes it's possible that the referee heard and acknowledged that 68 was reporting and then just made a mistake telling the defense and is then lying about it. Maybe 68 walked up and mumbled report when the three of them were around there because he's not used to reporting in and doesn't understand that he needs to make it clear.

If you're a referee you need to be very clear on who is reporting and if there's confusion, especially when the play clock isn't running and thus there's no real time pressure. If you're a player you need to very clearly report in as eligible and confirm that the referee recognizes you doing so.

This is the video posted by the league. If there was an announcement then you can hear it. I do not but someone can say if they do, it is not edited.

I *think* I might hear the echos of it at 11:26, but I honestly can't tell if that's echos of song lyrics or the refs mic or if I'm just hearing things. It does line up with the timing of the other video (without audio) though.

 

[daver]

Allen himself said he acknowledged the verbal report though, unless he’s just lying about that too.

Which if he is, he won’t have a job next year.

If the Lions said noone on their team or any of the coaches heard the ref making the announcement over the PA would think they were lying too?

The truth is likely somewhere between "#70 clearly indicating both visually and verbally that he was reporting" and "#68 clearly reported and the ref acknowledged it but then made a very unbelievable mistake by announcing #70 to the Cowboys and to the crowd".

I think the ref thought #70 was reporting but maybe did not get the clear verbal confirmation. This would be something the NFL would not want to admit.

 

[GKJ]

If the Lions said noone on their team or any of the coaches heard the ref making the announcement over the PA would think they were lying too?

The truth is likely somewhere between "#70 clearly indicating both visually and verbally that he was reporting" and "#68 clearly reported and the ref acknowledged it but then made a very unbelievable mistake by announcing #70 to the Cowboys and to the crowd".

I think the ref thought #70 was reporting but maybe did not get the clear verbal confirmation. This would be something the NFL would not want to admit.

Adam Schefter has been at Brad Allen’s throat this week, that’s probably an indication on what’s being heard but not said about.

 

[GKJ]

The referee very clearly points at #70 and nods his head to acknowledge that he believes #70 is reporting eligible.

We don't know when #68 verbally said he was reporting. Maybe he's in the middle of saying it right here:
View attachment 795110

In which case it would be very easy for the ref, who already believes #70 is attempting to report, to think that it's #70 who is actually saying something.

The truth is we don't know exactly what was said when. Yes it's possible that the referee heard and acknowledged that 68 was reporting and then just made a mistake telling the defense and is then lying about it. Maybe 68 walked up and mumbled report when the three of them were around there because he's not used to reporting in and doesn't understand that he needs to make it clear.

If you're a referee you need to be very clear on who is reporting and if there's confusion, especially when the play clock isn't running and thus there's no real time pressure. If you're a player you need to very clearly report in as eligible and confirm that the referee recognizes you doing so.


I *think* I might hear the echos of it at 11:26, but I honestly can't tell if that's echos of song lyrics or the refs mic or if I'm just hearing things. It does line up with the timing of the other video (without audio) though.

I don’t know how it’s possible for anyone other than 68 to verbally report and be acknowledged based on that shot. It’s one guy vs. the other’s word at that point.

 

[hatterson]

I don’t know how it’s possible for anyone other than 68 to verbally report and be acknowledged based on that shot. It’s one guy vs. the other’s word at that point.

Keep in mind that at the point of my picture, Allen has already pointed at #70 and nodded to him in a "yep I see you coming to report to me" gesture. So if, as he's turning away, he hears someone say "Reporting eligible" his brain is naturally going to assume it's the same guy he's already acknowledged.

To me it seems the most likely scenario is that Allen saw #70 running on, saw his hand near his chest, and assumed "yea we've done this before, he's reporting in" pointed to him, and then kinda focused on going to tell the defense and not actually confirming his assumption. He probably saw 68 and 58 walking towards him and figured "they're probably trying to mess with the Cowboys, but I can see the guy who I think is coming in so I'm set" Obviously that's a bad assumption and not something a referee should be doing and should result in significant discipline. Combined with all the other mistakes and poor performance from the crew (both in this game and other games) it should probably result in either a demotion from referee to random official or an outright firing.

The Lions were trying to create confusion around who was reporting but then very clearly saw the referee point to the wrong guy as if acknowledging him. Instead of trying to fix it and ensure it was correct, they just kept with the initial plan.

 

[mouser]

What is the protocol?

I'm going by what the NFL said in their video memo:

"It is the responsibility of the player to be sure that change in status is clearly communicated to the referee by both a physical signal ... and to report to the referee his intention to report as an eligible receiver"

The NFL didn't clarify exactly how a player is supposed to fulfill the bolded requirement, but I find it hard to believe Skipper #70's actions satisfied that second requirement. Hence my opinion that Allen failed to follow protocol.

 

[StreetHawk]

I'm going by what the NFL said in their video memo:

"It is the responsibility of the player to be sure that change in status is clearly communicated to the referee by both a physical signal ... and to report to the referee his intention to report as an eligible receiver"

The NFL didn't clarify exactly how a player is supposed to fulfill the bolded requirement, but I find it hard to believe Skipper #70's actions satisfied that second requirement. Hence my opinion that Allen failed to follow protocol.

Saw someone post a video breakdown showed how Skipper had reported earlier. Left hand raised as if taking the oath with right hand seemingly making a circle move on his stomach to indicate reporting. As he came onto the field on that 2 point play his left arm is again raised in that oath manner. Right arm bent 90 degrees, but we'd all have our arm like that, when jogging, but no reason for his left arm to be raised the way it was coming onto the field.

I have no doubt Decker did his part to report but not sure if Skipper overplayed his part with the left arm and not sure if he did make a circle motion with his right arm as he was coming on. But Allen would have had to see him early as he was coming on as by the time he reached parallel to the huddle his left arm was down.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

This whole thing to me is a nothingburger and blown way out of proportion and overanalyzed.

The Lions tried to use a bunch of trickery in the simple reporting of a damn player, f*** them. They ended up confusing the refs and possibly themselves. They share the blame here. The wrong guy was announced over the PA system loud and clear and they still ran the play, that's on them.

They even got 2 more kicks at the can, bailed out on an offisde, still couldn't convert, that's on them. They could have and should have just tied the game up and went to OT too...

NFL referee crews have gotten away with so much more than this with no action. I'm all for holding bad refs and their crews accountable, I really don't understand punishing Brad Alen and his crew here.