Eligible Receivergate - Thoughts?

[StreetHawk]

How many crews does the NFL even have? Given the schedule congestion without Thursday and Monday games, do they even have enough to fully bench a team on the last week?

I never paid full attention to it but prior to the regular TNF games a few years ago you only had Sunday and Monday. So figure you need 16 crews with maybe 1 spare crew in the event someone got very sick or hurt and could not make the game. Total of 17.

I don’t think they have the TNF crew do another game on Sunday or Monday.

 

[hatterson]

Well then it should’ve been a good thing that the person reporting eligible was right in front of his face, because he doesn’t have any other reason to be there.

And people gotta cut it with the loud stadium nonsense, if the quarterback can communicate to 10 guys in a huddle, the referee can hear someone speaking directly to him. Just listen to the broadcast. It’s the Jerry Dome, place ain’t ever been loud.

1.) The person isn't "in front of his face" until *after* he has already pointed at and nodded to #70 as the guy he thinks is checking in
2.) I'm not sure why "he doesn't have any other reason to be there" means anything given that both #68 and #58 are walking up to the referee and #70 is jogging towards him when literally only one of them has any reason to go towards him.

 

[GKJ]

1.) The person isn't "in front of his face" until *after* he has already pointed at and nodded to #70 as the guy he thinks is checking in
2.) I'm not sure why "he doesn't have any other reason to be there" means anything given that both #68 and #58 are walking up to the referee and #70 is jogging towards him when literally only one of them has any reason to go towards him.

The only thing that matters is what he’s being told. Not what he thinks, especially when he was told to expect it if and when the time came.

They can be wherever they want before play, that’s just what all the people who know say about it. Referees ain’t there to to act on what they think, it doesn’t matter how many people are there. If one person says they’re eligible, there’s nothing else to say or do or think about. Otherwise, that just reinforces that the Lions should think that the referee acknowledged the right player when he starts to walk away even if he’s not looking at him.

 

[JimmyApples]

First off, let's face it: This wouldn't be getting one tenth of the attention it's getting if it didn't involve the Cowboys. Especially if it didn't benefit the Cowboys. If this went against the Boys, everyone would be laughing at them saying it was the right call.

Anyways, it looks like the NFL has sent out a memo to the team about being more clear about reporting eligible players. I actually liked the creativity by Dan Campbell on this play call, but if your idea is to cause confusion to the point you don't know who is eligible, be careful what you wish for.

The NFL also highlighted in the memo that this play had an illegal formation. Plus the Lions got two attempts, from the 7 and the 2, to punch it in. And at any time, could have realized this clearly wasn't working, and kicked a FG to send the game to OT.

I think the ref probably f***ed up, but it's essentially he-said-she said at this point. I don't blame the Lions for not hearing the announcement over the PA because I believe they were in the huddle. But Jordan Lewis actually came out after the game and said if a different tackle reported eligible, the coverage would have changed.

There were also plenty of bad calls going both way all game - Hutchinson was lined up offside on Dak's pick. Hutchinson also tripped Pollard (which would have ended the game), but they saw the wrong leg and called the Cowboys on it. And there's like 4 pictures of Micah getting mauled, including one where the Lions are practically lifting his facemask off.

 

[mouser]

By his own admission he simply walked up and said “report” however, importantly, that occurred *after* the referee had already pointed to and acknowledged #70 as eligible. Given the loud crowd, it’s very easy for the ref to miss that or to not realize who said it.

It easily could have looked like #70, who was jogging on, was making the hands up and down in front of his chest “I’m reporting” motion.

Again, no one is saying that the proper playing didn’t say the word “report” the issue is that it is the players responsibility to *clearly* identify to the referee that he’s reporting. The Lions absolutely failed to do that. That doesn’t mean the referee is blame free, he clearly should have taken time to verify what was going on, but the Lions also get a healthy share of the blame.

Watching the video, this seems improbable to me. Decker #68 is approaching the ref waving his hand on his chest, the typical hand signal to report as eligible. Skipper #70 is just coming in off the sideline at this time.

Amusing thing with the NFL video memo is it states players must both verbally communicate with and physically signal to the ref they’re reporting as eligible. There’s no way Skipper #70 verbally communicated with Allen. I also don’t see Allen pointing at Skipper #70 at any time to acknowledge him as eligible?

 

[mouser]

First off, let's face it: This wouldn't be getting one tenth of the attention it's getting if it didn't involve the Cowboys. Especially if it didn't benefit the Cowboys. If this went against the Boys, everyone would be laughing at them saying it was the right call.

Anyways, it looks like the NFL has sent out a memo to the team about being more clear about reporting eligible players. I actually liked the creativity by Dan Campbell on this play call, but if your idea is to cause confusion to the point you don't know who is eligible, be careful what you wish for.

The NFL also highlighted in the memo that this play had an illegal formation. Plus the Lions got two attempts, from the 7 and the 2, to punch it in. And at any time, could have realized this clearly wasn't working, and kicked a FG to send the game to OT.

I think the ref probably f***ed up, but it's essentially he-said-she said at this point. I don't blame the Lions for not hearing the announcement over the PA because I believe they were in the huddle. But Jordan Lewis actually came out after the game and said if a different tackle reported eligible, the coverage would have changed.

There were also plenty of bad calls going both way all game - Hutchinson was lined up offside on Dak's pick. Hutchinson also tripped Pollard (which would have ended the game), but they saw the wrong leg and called the Cowboys on it. And there's like 4 pictures of Micah getting mauled, including one where the Lions are practically lifting his facemask off.

The formation is only illegal because the ref incorrectly called #70 as eligible instead of #68.

If Decker #68 is properly identified as eligible the formation is legal.

 

[hatterson]

Watching the video, this seems improbable to me. Decker #68 is approaching the ref waving his hand on his chest, the typical hand signal to report as eligible. Skipper #70 is just coming in off the sideline at this time.

Amusing thing with the NFL video memo is it states players must both verbally communicate with and physically signal to the ref they’re reporting as eligible. There’s no way Skipper #70 verbally communicated with Allen. I also don’t see Allen pointing at Skipper #70 at any time to acknowledge him as eligible?

The video shows the referee looking at something in his pocket, glancing up for a second and then immediately looking to his left and seeing #70 running towards him with his hand on his chest. Yes, obviously he was doing the same action here he did before and signaling for the other player to get out and the referee screwed up and misinterpreted it, but it's clear that's what he believes is happening. The ref then nods and points at #70 and goes to tell the defense. The nod/point isn't super clear on the video in the NFL announcement but you can see it clearly in this video where he's looking to his left, nodding and pointing.



Then when the Lions are in the huddle the referee makes the announcement to the stadium and again points towards #70 in the stadium.

Again, the referee obviously screwed up, but the Lions had multiple opportunities to recognize that and correct it, they chose not to. They knew they were intentionally trying to create confusion around who was eligible (despite the intent of the rules being to explicitly prevent that) but didn't make sure it was clear to the one dude who mattered and didn't pay attention to see if that guy got it rigth.

 

[JimmyApples]

The formation is only illegal because the ref incorrectly called #70 as eligible instead of #68.

If Decker #68 is properly identified as eligible the formation is legal.

Wrong

 

[StreetHawk]

Wrong

I've heard Kurt Warner say it was a legal formation and I've heard Chris Simms say it was illegal. I would have to believe that if you practice this play, you need to know if 68 is in a legal formation or not.

 

[mouser]

Wrong

If Decker is tackle eligible then what else about the formation makes it illegal?

 

[misterchainsaw]

Wrong

No dude, you're the wrong one here. Formation was perfectly legal IF #68 was the one who was declared eligible by the official.

I've heard Kurt Warner say it was a legal formation and I've heard Chris Simms say it was illegal. I would have to believe that if you practice this play, you need to know if 68 is in a legal formation or not.

Pretty sure Chris Simms said the same thing as a bunch of other people - that it was only an illegal formation because the wrong number was identified as being eligible.

 

[hatterson]

Yea if 68 is eligible and 70 is not (as the Lions intended). The formation is perfectly legal. Its a weird formation, but its legal.

 

[StreetHawk]

Yea if 68 is eligible and 70 is not (as the Lions intended). The formation is perfectly legal. Its a weird formation, but its legal.

It looks weird in that 68 is 2 spots from the C (regular position for an OT), whereas a typical TE is going to be 3 spots over from the C. But, I think they had the proper number of players on the line.

 

[hatterson]

It looks weird in that 68 is 2 spots from the C (regular position for an OT), whereas a typical TE is going to be 3 spots over from the C. But, I think they had the proper number of players on the line.

Correct.

The point of the play is that you have both 58 and 68 approach the ref. 68 reports as eligible and the ref announces it but then they line up as if 58 is the one eligible if it was a “normal” formation and the defense gets confused over who is and isn’t eligible since it can be hard to differentiate 58 from 68 at a quick hearing.

Basically the entire play is about exploiting something the rules are meant to prevent, the defense not understanding who is and isn’t eligible.

 

[mouser]

Correct.

The point of the play is that you have both 58 and 68 approach the ref. 68 reports as eligible and the ref announces it but then they line up as if 58 is the one eligible if it was a “normal” formation and the defense gets confused over who is and isn’t eligible since it can be hard to differentiate 58 from 68 at a quick hearing.

Basically the entire play is about exploiting something the rules are meant to prevent, the defense not understanding who is and isn’t eligible.

Agreed there was intent by the Lions to “legally exploit“ the rules to create confusion.

On the other hand, ref Brad Allen didn’t follow the NFL rulebook protocol to confirm which player is reporting as eligible.

 

[daver]

Agreed there was intent by the Lions to “legally exploit“ the rules to create confusion.

On the other hand, ref Brad Allen didn’t follow the NFL rulebook protocol to confirm which player is reporting as eligible.

What is the protocol?

Watching the video, this seems improbable to me. Decker #68 is approaching the ref waving his hand on his chest, the typical hand signal to report as eligible. Skipper #70 is just coming in off the sideline at this time.

Amusing thing with the NFL video memo is it states players must both verbally communicate with and physically signal to the ref they’re reporting as eligible. There’s no way Skipper #70 verbally communicated with Allen. I also don’t see Allen pointing at Skipper #70 at any time to acknowledge him as eligible?

The video shows #70 making the exact same hand gesture (holding his hand up in the air) as he enters the field as he did earlier. The ref clearly thinks it is him reporting as he points toward him.



Not sure why people are having a hard time believing the Lions could have done more to ensure no confusion.

 

[daver]

The only thing that matters is what he’s being told. Not what he thinks, especially when he was told to expect it if and when the time came.

They can be wherever they want before play, that’s just what all the people who know say about it. Referees ain’t there to to act on what they think, it doesn’t matter how many people are there. If one person says they’re eligible, there’s nothing else to say or do or think about. Otherwise, that just reinforces that the Lions should think that the referee acknowledged the right player when he starts to walk away even if he’s not looking at him.

Do you have link to what he was told?

#70 waves his hand as he was coming onto the field like he did earlier when he reported. Yes, the ref could have taken an extra second to confirm but at some point the ref needs to confirm any reporting to the defense before the play is run. Did the Lions wait too long?

 

[GKJ]

Do you have link to what he was told?

#70 waves his hand as he was coming onto the field like he did earlier when he reported. Yes, the ref could have taken an extra second to confirm but at some point the ref needs to confirm any reporting to the defense before the play is run. Did the Lions wait too long?

Dan Campbell said so in the press conference.

No, they did not wait too long.

 

[daver]

Dan Campbell said so in the press conference.

What exactly did he say to the ref before the game?

Did he say that they were going to try to trick the Cowboys by sending #70, #58, and #68 to the ref before the play? And then have #58 initially lineup as a receiver before moving to the line? And have #70 run out late towards the ref waving his hand in the same way he waved it before when he was reporting earlier in the game?

Did he say all that? And if the answer is yes, he told him exactly that, do you think that it is reasonable that the ref would be expected to remember all of that?

I highly doubt that is what the coach told him. There hasn't been any acknowledgement by the Lions that they were trying to confuse the Cowboys.

What seems reasonable is that the ref saw #70 running towards him and waving his hand. He points to him, presumably confirming his eligibility then starts moving away. Since the whole point of this exercise is to try to confuse the Cowboys, #68 perhaps doesn't make it clear that he, not #70, is reporting so it is not tipped off to the Cowboys.

Maybe the ref knows exactly what the Lions are doing by having multiple linemen come up to him and makes it clear to that group that it is #70 that he has acknowledged as reporting especially since #70 made the exact same hand gesture as before. This is then announced. The Lions then should have realized their subterfuge blew up in their face and stopped the play.

It appeared the QB had to remind #68 to report so perhaps #68 wasn't clear on what he needed to do or what to do when the ref appeared to confirm #70 as reporting. In the ref's mind, he confirmed #70 as reporting to the Lions because he made the gesture. #70 doesn't help things by continuing to run towards the ref after being pointed at.

Again, the ref could have taken another second or two to confirm, but the Lions are partially to blame for not taking an extra second or two themselves to confirm once it was clear there was a miscommunication. In their mind, that extra second or two ruins the play.

 

[hatterson]

According to Pro Football Talk, Allen wasn’t even at the usual pregame meeting with Campbell:

NFL has no plan to change procedure for reporting as eligible

With the Eagles losing to the Cardinals on Sunday, Saturday night's outcome in the Detroit-Dallas game becomes even more significant.

www.nbcsports.com

Per a source with knowledge of the situation, Brad Allen was not present for the pregame meeting with Campbell. That’s standard procedure. It’s not known whether Campbell explained that a shell game of sorts would be played before the play to confuse the Cowboys.

Did Campbell say “hey, we’re gonna have three guys look like they’re reporting eligible so the defense gets confused over who actually is” or did he say “we’re gonna run a weird formation that looks illegal because we actually put our eligible tackle at the normal left tackle spot instead of in a tight end spot, but it’s good cause we’ll have the tackle report eligible and make sure that there’s the right number of dudes on the line”

And regardless of what he said, what got relayed to Allen? How much responsibility does the referee have to remember and go along with intentional deception around reporting eligible?

I’m not trying to defend Allen at all. His team has been total trash this year and messed up multiple games, go ahead and fire him for all I care. I’m just saying the “Lions got screwed by the officials” pity party is stupid. 1.) literally the drive before the officials called a tripping penalty against the wrong team, penalizing the Cowboys instead of the Lions. If that’s called the game more than likely ends before the Lions get a TD; and 2.) play stupid games, win stupid prizes? You tried to create confusion and you successfully created confusion. Good job.

 

[GKJ]

What exactly did he say to the ref before the game?

Did he say that they were going to try to trick the Cowboys by sending #70, #58, and #68 to the ref before the play? And then have #58 initially lineup as a receiver before moving to the line? And have #70 run out late towards the ref waving his hand in the same way he waved it before when he was reporting earlier in the game?

Did he say all that? And if the answer is yes, he told him exactly that, do you think that it is reasonable that the ref would be expected to remember all of that?

I highly doubt that is what the coach told him. There hasn't been any acknowledgement by the Lions that they were trying to confuse the Cowboys.

What seems reasonable is that the ref saw #70 running towards him and waving his hand. He points to him, presumably confirming his eligibility then starts moving away. Since the whole point of this exercise is to try to confuse the Cowboys, #68 perhaps doesn't make it clear that he, not #70, is reporting so it is not tipped off to the Cowboys.

Maybe the ref knows exactly what the Lions are doing by having multiple linemen come up to him and makes it clear to that group that it is #70 that he has acknowledged as reporting especially since #70 made the exact same hand gesture as before. This is then announced. The Lions then should have realized their subterfuge blew up in their face and stopped the play.

It appeared the QB had to remind #68 to report so perhaps #68 wasn't clear on what he needed to do or what to do when the ref appeared to confirm #70 as reporting. In the ref's mind, he confirmed #70 as reporting to the Lions because he made the gesture. #70 doesn't help things by continuing to run towards the ref after being pointed at.

Again, the ref could have taken another second or two to confirm, but the Lions are partially to blame for not taking an extra second or two themselves to confirm once it was clear there was a miscommunication. In their mind, that extra second or two ruins the play.

I wasn’t at the stadium or on the field, so I couldn’t observe anything or write down what anyone said. I believe Goff said that leaving the huddle to report is how they practiced it. The Lions don’t have a timeout so I don’t know if they can stop the play, and they immediately run it at the whistle to start.

All the rest of this, I don’t know, are you Brad Allen? Decker came up to him and reported as the eligible receiver. Again, this, that, whatever, could have, should have - the ref f***ed it. His job is to not f*** it.

According to Pro Football Talk, Allen wasn’t even at the usual pregame meeting with Campbell:

NFL has no plan to change procedure for reporting as eligible

With the Eagles losing to the Cardinals on Sunday, Saturday night's outcome in the Detroit-Dallas game becomes even more significant.

www.nbcsports.com

Did Campbell say “hey, we’re gonna have three guys look like they’re reporting eligible so the defense gets confused over who actually is” or did he say “we’re gonna run a weird formation that looks illegal because we actually put our eligible tackle at the normal left tackle spot instead of in a tight end spot, but it’s good cause we’ll have the tackle report eligible and make sure that there’s the right number of dudes on the line”

And regardless of what he said, what got relayed to Allen? How much responsibility does the referee have to remember and go along with intentional deception around reporting eligible?

I’m not trying to defend Allen at all. His team has been total trash this year and messed up multiple games, go ahead and fire him for all I care. I’m just saying the “Lions got screwed by the officials” pity party is stupid. 1.) literally the drive before the officials called a tripping penalty against the wrong team, penalizing the Cowboys instead of the Lions. If that’s called the game more than likely ends before the Lions get a TD; and 2.) play stupid games, win stupid prizes? You tried to create confusion and you successfully created confusion. Good job.

You can try to tell yourself all you want you’re not trying to defend Allen, but if your stance is anything short of he got confused and failed to acknowledge who was intended to be eligible, then it’s exactly what you’re doing. Watching 3 guys walking up to him as an observer may look and perhaps evidently be confusing, but he is the one person ultimately responsible, it’s his job to not be confused. Players and coaches try to manipulate and obfuscate the rules and officials all the time, and the league sends out all these memos, but it’s their job to not allow that to happen in the game. He’s supposed to be the best of the best, so if he can’t be trusted to sort through it in a timely manner, then we got a guy who doesn’t belong there, and that cannot be anyone else’s fault but the league’s.

 

[izlez]

This "create confusion" stuff is insane. You create confusion on every play by not telling the other team what play you are running. You know who does know what play you are running? The people you directly tell it to. Because they understand how words work.

 

[hatterson]

This "create confusion" stuff is insane. You create confusion on every play by not telling the other team what play you are running. You know who does know what play you are running? The people you directly tell it to. Because they understand how words work.

The NFL has specific eligible formation and reporting rules to limit the type of confusion that’s created.

Causing confusion through pre-snap motion or weird formation is fine. Causing confusion over who is eligible to catch a pass or even go downfield is not something the NFL wants. Similar to how they don’t let 20 people stand in the huddle and then run to the sideline leaving only the 11 you want.

The NFL wants to give the defense a chance to know what the personnel is and who is eligible and ineligible on a given play and prepare the defense appropriately.

You can try to tell yourself all you want you’re not trying to defend Allen, but if your stance is anything short of he got confused and failed to acknowledge who was intended to be eligible, then it’s exactly what you’re doing.

That’s always been my stance regarding Allen. He got confused and didn’t take time to sort it out. He and his team have also made a number of other big game altering errors (including on the drive before this). Fire him.

My point has always been from the Lions standpoint. They tried to create confusion and managed to create confusion. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

They were given a gift on the previous drive, and then had two more chances to succeed on a two point conversion or do the more intelligent thing and kick the xp. They repeatedly chose to shoot themselves in the foot instead.

 

[daver]

I wasn’t at the stadium or on the field, so I couldn’t observe anything or write down what anyone said. I believe Goff said that leaving the huddle to report is how they practiced it. The Lions don’t have a timeout so I don’t know if they can stop the play, and they immediately run it at the whistle to start.

Still doesn't change the fact that #58 and #70 were also in on the "play" as decoys. Did they also practice #70 waving his hand as he did before but covering themselves under the ruse that this was supposed to be only signaling to his teammate to come off (as he beelines towards the ref).

Maybe the ref decides that this is too much deception by the Lions and are putting too much pressure on him to get things straight before giving enough time to notify the Cowboys. He decides that #70 has waved at him, he confirms he is the one who reported with a point, then ignores #68 and makes the announcement.

Maybe the ref knew the Lions were going to send multiple guys to him and decides they are waiting too long to report so he goes with whoever signals to him first which was #70. The Lions clearly want to push this to the very last second to max out the confusion.

There is simply a lot more to this than the ref confusing #68 for #70.

You seem to think that only one party here can be at fault. I get that the NFL would rather have it viewed as there guy handled it by the book and not remotely acknowledge that the ref "could" have done things differently.

 

[izlez]

The NFL has specific eligible formation and reporting rules to limit the type of confusion that’s created.

Causing confusion through pre-snap motion or weird formation is fine. Causing confusion over who is eligible to catch a pass or even go downfield is not something the NFL wants. Similar to how they don’t let 20 people stand in the huddle and then run to the sideline leaving only the 11 you want.

The NFL wants to give the defense a chance to know what the personnel is and who is eligible and ineligible on a given play and prepare the defense appropriately.




That’s always been my stance regarding Allen. He got confused and didn’t take time to sort it out. He and his team have also made a number of other big game altering errors (including on the drive before this). Fire him.

My point has always been from the Lions standpoint. They tried to create confusion and managed to create confusion. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

They were given a gift on the previous drive, and then had two more chances to succeed on a two point conversion or do the more intelligent thing and kick the xp. They repeatedly chose to shoot themselves in the foot instead.

He went up to the ref and said "I am eligible".

There is nothing confusing to the ref whatsoever. The potential confusion comes from people not in the conversation making assumptions. The idea that the statement "I am eligible" is confusing to the person that it is being directed to is insane.