Player Discussion Elias Pettersson | Quinn Hughes - Contract Discussion Thread

Breakers

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CAA is pretty bad from a UFA standpoint, they kill GMs
Brisson's Partner JP barry has demolished Benning with Tyler Myers and Loui Eriksson, coincidently the two worst contracts on the roster.

Darren Ferris is the worst according to dreger from an RFA standpoint with his --- "My client is going to switzerland" with Josh Anderson, Mitch Marner, Anasisiou

With the escrow being as high as it is this coming year, it should be a very small signing bonus, and small salary

23/24 - expect a big signing bonus, and a brutal qualifying offer. Maybe even in the 8 figure range. Just trying to get to that lowest escrow year and high QO
 

tradervik

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CAA is pretty bad from a UFA standpoint, they kill GMs
Brisson's Partner JP barry has demolished Benning with Tyler Myers and Loui Eriksson, coincidently the two worst contracts on the roster.

Darren Ferris is the worst according to dreger from an RFA standpoint with his --- "My client is going to switzerland" with Josh Anderson, Mitch Marner, Anasisiou

With the escrow being as high as it is this coming year, it should be a very small signing bonus, and small salary

23/24 - expect a big signing bonus, and a brutal qualifying offer. Maybe even in the 8 figure range. Just trying to get to that lowest escrow year and high QO
The new rule for qualifying offers limits it to the lesser of the final year salary or 120% of the AAV. So no possibility of a brutal QO unless the AAV is brutal also.
 

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The new rule for qualifying offers limits it to the lesser of the final year salary or 120% of the AAV. So no possibility of a brutal QO unless the AAV is brutal also.

Forgot about that rule from the summer

I can't believe San Jose's GM signed that contract negotiated Claude Lemieux.
 

604

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Barzal's 85 point year was as the second line center (i.e. easier matchups) on a team that played zero defence. Every single Islander fan says he is a considerably better player now.

Ergo, it's a bad comparison because Petey has been a far better player in far tougher circumstances (than Barzal's rookie year. I think there's an argument to be made for either overall).

You're telling me Barzal scored 85 points as a second line centre (to put him down)?

That's is incredible regardless of matchups.
 

MarkusNaslund19

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You're telling me Barzal scored 85 points as a second line centre (to put him down)?

That's is incredible regardless of matchups.
I'm not putting him down. But hockey is about more than points.

He scored 85 points while not facing the top matchups, on a bad team that finished 31st in goals against.

This is not to denigrate Barzal, but he's a better player now than he was then.
 

Bougieman

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Hughes hasn't even shown he can be a top pair guy (Barzal, who is seen as a Petey comp has had an 85 point season).

At this point, there are question marks about whether either can be a franchise level player

A top pair guy? Hughes was 4th in D-man scoring in the ENTIRE league in his first season, and 10th in his second. We all know this. Pretending it didn't happen doesn't make it not a fact. Sure, he has to round out his defensive game as evidenced by this last season, but so does our entire D-corp. And that tells us it wasn't an issue with Hughes specifically, as much as it was an issue with the systems the coaching staff had the team running. They weren't sound. Question marks? He's got an insane drive to get better, I have not a single worry that Quinn will round out his game. No one who has followed his career thus far would bet against this kid.

I know we all want him to sign for as little as possible so the team has money for other players, but I don't like it when we all suddenly pretend a player isn't as good as he statistically is as some sort of rationale for why that should happen.
 
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Ita

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A top pair guy? Hughes was 4th in D-man scoring in the ENTIRE league in his first season, and 10th in his second. We all know this. Pretending it didn't happen doesn't make it not a fact. Sure, he has to round out his defensive game as evidenced by this last season, but so does our entire D-corp. And that tells us it wasn't an issue with Hughes specifically, as much as it was an issue with the systems the coaching staff had the team running. They weren't sound. Question marks? He's got an insane drive to get better, I have not a single worry that Quinn will round out his game. No one who has followed his career thus far would bet against this kid.

I know we all want him to sign for as little as possible so the team has money for other players, but I don't like it when we all suddenly pretend a player isn't as good as he statistically is as some sort of rationale for why that should happen.

So you are placing most of the blame for his defensive deficiency on our "system" and not the player himself? A top pair guy can carry the team by himself.. Also using points production to justify whether someone is a top pair guy isn't really a good argument. You are expected to be also good at defence. His offensive skills are elite but his defensive skills are below average. That's why you don't see people calling Gostisbehere or Krug a "top pair" defenceman.
 

Hit the post

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So you are placing most of the blame for his defensive deficiency on our "system" and not the player himself? A top pair guy can carry the team by himself.. Also using points production to justify whether someone is a top pair guy isn't really a good argument. You are expected to be also good at defence. His offensive skills are elite but his defensive skills are below average. That's why you don't see people calling Gostisbehere or Krug a "top pair" defenceman.
A fair bit below average. It's awful. But it's early, I won't even begin to be concerned unless his upcoming season is the same (ie., dangerous at both ends of the rink)
 

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So you are placing most of the blame for his defensive deficiency on our "system" and not the player himself? A top pair guy can carry the team by himself.. Also using points production to justify whether someone is a top pair guy isn't really a good argument. You are expected to be also good at defence. His offensive skills are elite but his defensive skills are below average. That's why you don't see people calling Gostisbehere or Krug a "top pair" defenceman.

To support this only have to look at Samuel Girard versus Vegas. He was a major reason why Colorado couldn't hang with the Knights. Vegas drove the net, bumped Girard out of inside position and screen out Grubauer or deflected the puck into the net. That was totally evident in Game 6 and made you wonder if the Avs can win the Cup with Girard.

Girard and Hughes are similar players. About the same size, both with excellent offensive games and both with obvious issues in their zone. Girard gets 5 million per and really you are looking at about the same for Hughes.
 
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geebster

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Girard and Hughes are similar players. About the same size, both with excellent offensive games and both with obvious issues in their zone. Girard gets 5 million per and really you are looking at about the same for Hughes.

Quinn Hughes has 97 points in 129 games (0.751 ppg), Girard has 116 in 273 (0.425). Sure Quinn plays 2 mins more per game and gets more offensive time but how exactly can you compare the two offensively? Defensively sure he looked like Quinn out there but they arent even close to comparables. Girards best career year is this season, so when he signed his 7 year, 5 million dollar AAV contract his career stats were 84 points in 225 games.

If that seems similar to Quinn, then just consider: if Hughes has 0 points for his next season and a half he would still have better career numbers than that.

Getting Hughes at anything near 5 million on a long term deal would be absolute robbery. We are looking at maybe around there for a bridge, but definitely 7+ for a similarly long term deal. He might be bad defensively, but lets not criminally underrate his offensive talent.
 

F A N

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I think we try to sign Petey first before Hughes (since Hughes can't be offer sheeted).

I would like to see Petey signed long term for $8M AAV or under with something under $9M AAV being acceptable but it looks like we may be negotiating a 3 year term?
 

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Quinn Hughes has 97 points in 129 games (0.751 ppg), Girard has 116 in 273 (0.425). Sure Quinn plays 2 mins more per game and gets more offensive time but how exactly can you compare the two offensively? Defensively sure he looked like Quinn out there but they arent even close to comparables. Girards best career year is this season, so when he signed his 7 year, 5 million dollar AAV contract his career stats were 84 points in 225 games.

If that seems similar to Quinn, then just consider: if Hughes has 0 points for his next season and a half he would still have better career numbers than that.

Getting Hughes at anything near 5 million on a long term deal would be absolute robbery. We are looking at maybe around there for a bridge, but definitely 7+ for a similarly long term deal. He might be bad defensively, but lets not criminally underrate his offensive talent.

Girard doesn't get anything like the power play time (see Makar for that) Hughes gets and that's where Hughes gets most of his points with a lot of them being second assists . Also, Girard for all his defensive problems was a+ 15. Hughes was the second worse in the League at - 24. How can anyone say he is a near a franchise player with that type of defensive play? And how valuable is Hughes going to be in the playoffs when the style of play changes? As we are seeing the teams with the heavy guys who are good in their end take over in the playoffs and that is obviously not Hughes.

Tying yourself to a long term, big numbers contract is absolutely wrought with danger. And the is especially true if you are basing a long term contract on his ability to do well playing playoff style hockey. If anything Hughes is a boutique player who does real well in the light hitting, open style of the play but has demonstrated nothing to suggest he will bare up well when the grinding starts. He has some great offensive talent but that counts for little if you can't defend deep in your end and after last season there is totally open question whether he can do that (and that was in the regular season)

The idea that - well Hughes is a smart player who will figure it out - is, at present, built more around wishful thinking than any critical appraisal of Hughes play. There were times last year when he was absolutely dreadful and completely inadequate. That should not be swept under the rug. that needs to be considered.

As far as Girard I think he is a lot like Hughes. Great offensive mind, excellent break out passer who greatly facilitates and is hugely important to the quick attack of the Avs, good at the offensive blueline with probably a better and more accurate shot than Hughes. He is a good player but the question has always been can he defend and, in the playoffs this year Vegas raised bigger doubts about this.

The idea that you are going to base Hughes contract only on points is IMO very misguided. You need to look at the total package and Hughes defensive play is, right now, far from an NHL standard. 5 on 5, he was very much a negative and more so than Girard was to Colorado. If you are going to pay big money to Hughes (and anything over 5 on a short term deal is excessive IMO) you maybe strapping the team to another bad deal and really preventing them from bring in the true franchise player they might acquire moving ahead. For example would you rather have an all round player like Reilly or Nurse (who may become available next season), or their equivalent, moving ahead or Hughes. You sign Hughes to a franchise type deal and that, or any other alternative, is gone.

Saying you are going to pay him nothing less than 7 mill. (and some how in this covid strapped salary cap world you see this is as a bargain) is absurd given his defensive play. And I'd say, right now, the Avs might be re-thinking that Girard deal given the way Vegas abused him. To give Hughes that kind of money is ignore blindly the most important aspect of a defenseman's game. Can he play in his own end? Hughes needs to prove that on a short term deal before you start tossing franchise type money at him. You need to give our head a shake if you can't see this.

But you may well reflect the one dimensional and overly optimistic attitude often illustrated by Canuck management and a good chuck of Canuck fandom. Throwing money and term around on some glittering new thing rather than taking a hard look at a player seems the norm with them and that, of course, a has brought us to where we are. Toronto has graphically shown the folly of this approach and, given the present dimwits running the team, I fear we will do the same.
 
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flying v 604

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You're telling me Barzal scored 85 points as a second line centre (to put him down)?

That's is incredible regardless of matchups.
Barzal has also declined every season since getting the harder matchups. Without checking I would guess Petey has a higher ppg over his careeer, but I think the comp is fair tho Barzal is half the D player Petey is IMO.
 

flying v 604

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Girard doesn't get anything like the power play time (see Makar for that) Hughes gets and that's where Hughes gets most of his points with a lot of them being second assists . Also, Girard for all his defensive problems was a+ 15. Hughes was the second worse in the League at - 24. How can anyone say he is a near a franchise player with that type of defensive play? And how valuable is Hughes going to be in the playoffs when the style of play changes? As we are seeing the teams with the heavy guys who are good in their end take over in the playoffs and that is obviously not Hughes.

Tying yourself to a long term, big numbers contract is absolutely wrought with danger. And the is especially true if you are basing a long term contract on his ability to do well playing playoff style hockey. If anything Hughes is a boutique player who does real well in the light hitting, open style of the play but has demonstrated nothing to suggest he will bare up well when the grinding starts. He has some great offensive talent but that counts for little if you can't defend deep in your end and after last season there is totally open question whether he can do that (and that was in the regular season)

The idea that - well Hughes is a smart player who will figure it out - is, at present, built more around wishful thinking than any critical appraisal of Hughes play. There were times last year when he was absolutely dreadful and completely inadequate. That should not be swept under the rug. that needs to be considered.

As far as Girard I think he is a lot like Hughes. Great offensive mind, excellent break out passer who greatly facilitates and is hugely important to the quick attack of the Avs, good at the offensive blueline with probably a better and more accurate shot than Hughes. He is a good player but the question has always been can he defend and, in the playoffs this year Vegas raised bigger doubts about this.

The idea that you are going to base Hughes contract only on points is IMO very misguided. You need to look at the total package and Hughes defensive play is, right now, far from an NHL standard. 5 on 5, he was very much a negative and more so than Girard was to Colorado. If you are going to pay big money to Hughes (and anything over 5 on a short term deal is excessive IMO) you maybe strapping the team to another bad deal and really preventing them from bring in the true franchise player they might acquire moving ahead. For example would you rather have an all round player like Reilly or Nurse (who may become available next season), or their equivalent, moving ahead or Hughes. You sign Hughes to a franchise type deal and that, or any other alternative, is gone.

Saying you are going to pay him nothing less than 7 mill. (and some how in this covid strapped salary cap world you see this is as a bargain) is absurd given his defensive play. And I'd say, right now, the Avs might be re-thinking that Girard deal given the way Vegas abused him. To give Hughes that kind of money is ignore blindly the most important aspect of a defenseman's game. Can he play in his own end? Hughes needs to prove that on a short term deal before you start tossing franchise type money at him. You need to give our head a shake if you can't see this.

But you may well reflect the one dimensional and overly optimistic attitude often illustrated by Canuck management and a good chuck of Canuck fandom. Throwing money and term around on some glittering new thing rather than taking a hard look at a player seems the norm with them and that, of course, a has brought us to where we are. Toronto has graphically shown the folly of this approach and, given the present dimwits running the team, I fear we will do the same.
Hughes was a ppg 26+ minute eating #1as a rookie in the playoffs against 3 very big team's. He had 2 bad games the entire 17 games. Why do people focus on this year to discredit him? Does last year not count?
This season needs to be looked at in 2 parts, the first 19 games he was with Benn mostly and was a -20 something, he was much better the final 37 games even tho he still had almost as many minutes away from Hamonic as with.
It is obvious the #1 need is finding a partner that can play every situation that Quinn plays while being that stay-at-home presence. Having him play with 2-3 guys a game because his main partner isn't a true top pairing guy hurts his game. Sign a Martinez or Larsson, or trade for Manson but find this guy someone who can play 22+ minutes and stop this switching crap.
 

geebster

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Girard doesn't get anything like the power play time (see Makar for that) Hughes gets and that's where Hughes gets most of his points with a lot of them being second assists . Also, Girard for all his defensive problems was a+ 15. Hughes was the second worse in the League at - 24. How can anyone say he is a near a franchise player with that type of defensive play? And how valuable is Hughes going to be in the playoffs when the style of play changes? As we are seeing the teams with the heavy guys who are good in their end take over in the playoffs and that is obviously not Hughes.

Tying yourself to a long term, big numbers contract is absolutely wrought with danger. And the is especially true if you are basing a long term contract on his ability to do well playing playoff style hockey. If anything Hughes is a boutique player who does real well in the light hitting, open style of the play but has demonstrated nothing to suggest he will bare up well when the grinding starts. He has some great offensive talent but that counts for little if you can't defend deep in your end and after last season there is totally open question whether he can do that (and that was in the regular season)

The idea that - well Hughes is a smart player who will figure it out - is, at present, built more around wishful thinking than any critical appraisal of Hughes play. There were times last year when he was absolutely dreadful and completely inadequate. That should not be swept under the rug. that needs to be considered.

As far as Girard I think he is a lot like Hughes. Great offensive mind, excellent break out passer who greatly facilitates and is hugely important to the quick attack of the Avs, good at the offensive blueline with probably a better and more accurate shot than Hughes. He is a good player but the question has always been can he defend and, in the playoffs this year Vegas raised bigger doubts about this.

The idea that you are going to base Hughes contract only on points is IMO very misguided. You need to look at the total package and Hughes defensive play is, right now, far from an NHL standard. 5 on 5, he was very much a negative and more so than Girard was to Colorado. If you are going to pay big money to Hughes (and anything over 5 on a short term deal is excessive IMO) you maybe strapping the team to another bad deal and really preventing them from bring in the true franchise player they might acquire moving ahead. For example would you rather have an all round player like Reilly or Nurse (who may become available next season), or their equivalent, moving ahead or Hughes. You sign Hughes to a franchise type deal and that, or any other alternative, is gone.

Saying you are going to pay him nothing less than 7 mill. (and some how in this covid strapped salary cap world you see this is as a bargain) is absurd given his defensive play. And I'd say, right now, the Avs might be re-thinking that Girard deal given the way Vegas abused him. To give Hughes that kind of money is ignore blindly the most important aspect of a defenseman's game. Can he play in his own end? Hughes needs to prove that on a short term deal before you start tossing franchise type money at him. You need to give our head a shake if you can't see this.

But you may well reflect the one dimensional and overly optimistic attitude often illustrated by Canuck management and a good chuck of Canuck fandom. Throwing money and term around on some glittering new thing rather than taking a hard look at a player seems the norm with them and that, of course, a has brought us to where we are. Toronto has graphically shown the folly of this approach and, given the present dimwits running the team, I fear we will do the same.

Your original post was stating they are similarly bad defensively and similar offensively. Unless you can demonstrate that Girard is massively better than Hughes defensively or in some other regard, the gap between then offensively becomes enough to dictate the difference between them in value. The only way Girard could ever be brought up in a Hughes contract negotiation would be by Hughes' agent to point out that Hughes is better offensively than that guy making 5 million while them being similarly sized and playing the same side. Girards contract, at best, helps makes the argument that hes worth more than 5, not that he is Girard.

Hughes produces at 1.77x the rate of Girard, and thats including Girards career season this year which...again... came AFTER he signed to 5 million dollars. Incidentally, 1.77x is the gap between McDavid and Pacioretty this season. Its the gap between Gretzky and Joe Sakic's career numbers. Their career stats are absurdly different. The gap is HUGE. One could argue that Girard is overpaid at this point (especially given that his deal was signed months before the pandemic hit), but if hes worth 5, then Hughes is certainly worth more than that without a doubt.

You can say that stat totals arent all that matters and that is absolutely true, but even then they do matter to some degree. If you are comparing two players who are bad defensively and whose main contribution is offense, then offensive stats matter in that comparison. Its just a bad comparison. They are similar players but one is strictly better at the one thing they are both good at and by a large margin. Again...if Hughes doesnt improve defensively and scores 0 points for the next 1.5 years THEN he's Sam Girard. Hughes now vs Girard when that deal was signed has literally DOUBLE the points per game. To dismiss such a huge difference is to say a 120 point guy and a 60 point guy are the same value because the 60 point guy is 10-20% better on defense (the likely gap between Girard and Hughes). If you want a comparable to Hughes in value that produces at a significantly lower rate, it has to be one that is significantly better defensively or in some other regard to make up for the offensive gap. That simply stands to reason.

On a short term deal, I agree (and said in the post you are replying to) that 5 million is around what he would get on a bridge (a short term deal), but you absolutely would pay more than that on a longer term deal.
 

Bourne Endeavor

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It’s a joke that we can’t sign our franchise player to a 7-8 year contract.

It isn't that we can't. What incentive do they have to sign a 7/8 year deal unless we're offering them between $9-11M? Both Pettersson and Hughes know they aren't at the point of commanding that kind of money. So any long term deal would be more in $6-7 range. It'd be stupid for either of them to lock themselves up to $7 for pretty much their entire prime when they may very well become $10M players, especially once the cap starts going up again.
 

Ita

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hen they may very well become $10M players, especially once the cap starts going up again.

There are two defensemen in the league being paid 10M or more in the entire league. One of these contacts is considered to be one of the worst (Karlsson). I really really doubt that Hughes will become a $10M player one day (even if the cap goes up).

Pettersson also has a lot more to prove to get even close to that as a UFA.
 

Zarpan

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Girard signed his $5 million per year contract coming off his second season where he got 27 points (including 9 power play points) in 82 games. Doubt we can sign Hughes for that little despite his defensive issues.
 

Bourne Endeavor

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There are two defensemen in the league being paid 10M or more in the entire league. One of these contacts is considered to be one of the worst (Karlsson). I really really doubt that Hughes will become a $10M player one day (even if the cap goes up).

Pettersson also has a lot more to prove to get even close to that as a UFA.

Which was the crux of my point. They have zero incentive to sign 7-8 year deals as that all but guarantees they'll never be in a position to command a massive salary boost.
 

Regal

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Girard doesn't get anything like the power play time (see Makar for that) Hughes gets and that's where Hughes gets most of his points with a lot of them being second assists . Also, Girard for all his defensive problems was a+ 15. Hughes was the second worse in the League at - 24. How can anyone say he is a near a franchise player with that type of defensive play? And how valuable is Hughes going to be in the playoffs when the style of play changes? As we are seeing the teams with the heavy guys who are good in their end take over in the playoffs and that is obviously not Hughes.

Tying yourself to a long term, big numbers contract is absolutely wrought with danger. And the is especially true if you are basing a long term contract on his ability to do well playing playoff style hockey. If anything Hughes is a boutique player who does real well in the light hitting, open style of the play but has demonstrated nothing to suggest he will bare up well when the grinding starts. He has some great offensive talent but that counts for little if you can't defend deep in your end and after last season there is totally open question whether he can do that (and that was in the regular season)

The idea that - well Hughes is a smart player who will figure it out - is, at present, built more around wishful thinking than any critical appraisal of Hughes play. There were times last year when he was absolutely dreadful and completely inadequate. That should not be swept under the rug. that needs to be considered.

As far as Girard I think he is a lot like Hughes. Great offensive mind, excellent break out passer who greatly facilitates and is hugely important to the quick attack of the Avs, good at the offensive blueline with probably a better and more accurate shot than Hughes. He is a good player but the question has always been can he defend and, in the playoffs this year Vegas raised bigger doubts about this.

The idea that you are going to base Hughes contract only on points is IMO very misguided. You need to look at the total package and Hughes defensive play is, right now, far from an NHL standard. 5 on 5, he was very much a negative and more so than Girard was to Colorado. If you are going to pay big money to Hughes (and anything over 5 on a short term deal is excessive IMO) you maybe strapping the team to another bad deal and really preventing them from bring in the true franchise player they might acquire moving ahead. For example would you rather have an all round player like Reilly or Nurse (who may become available next season), or their equivalent, moving ahead or Hughes. You sign Hughes to a franchise type deal and that, or any other alternative, is gone.

Saying you are going to pay him nothing less than 7 mill. (and some how in this covid strapped salary cap world you see this is as a bargain) is absurd given his defensive play. And I'd say, right now, the Avs might be re-thinking that Girard deal given the way Vegas abused him. To give Hughes that kind of money is ignore blindly the most important aspect of a defenseman's game. Can he play in his own end? Hughes needs to prove that on a short term deal before you start tossing franchise type money at him. You need to give our head a shake if you can't see this.

But you may well reflect the one dimensional and overly optimistic attitude often illustrated by Canuck management and a good chuck of Canuck fandom. Throwing money and term around on some glittering new thing rather than taking a hard look at a player seems the norm with them and that, of course, a has brought us to where we are. Toronto has graphically shown the folly of this approach and, given the present dimwits running the team, I fear we will do the same.

Rielly and Nurse both also suck defensively, but other than that, I generally agree here. I like Hughes, and I think he can improve, but these types of defensemen can be dangerous to sign because their point totals tend to lead to bigger contracts then their actual value. If Hughes gets paid like an elite defenseman, but then also needs a good partner to fully succeed, and then also ideally needs the 2nd pairing to take top matchups, your blueline is going to cost an obscene amount. It's why I think a bridge is the only way to go with him, because he needs to prove he's not just Torey Krug before he gets big money, because you don't want Krug as your best defenseman, and even as a UFA, he "only" got 6.5.
 

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