NFL: Eli Manning benched, Daniel Jones named Giants starting QB

[YEM]

I've said it before, but Eli was Jay Cutler with better body language, better health and a horseshoe up his ass.

you're kinda right but his best attribute [and I say this as an eagles fan] was his clutchness
he was more clutch than he was good
cutler was basically the total opposite of that

 

[Troy McClure]

1) If he had these results in Arizona people would be talking him up as a 1st ballot HOF
2) If his name wasn't Eli Manning people there would be no questioning his HOF resume

His resume is very pedestrian. It’s not a hall of fame resume. He had two good months of play over a 15 season career. Otherwise, the great majority of his games were him putting up numbers equivalent to an average QB.

 

[Live in the Now]

Eli had a .500 record as a starter. The Super Bowl rings matter, but he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. I'm sure that he will be though.

I've said it before, but Eli was Jay Cutler with better body language, better health and a horseshoe up his ass.

Obviously Eli played a lot longer so his raw numbers are much higher, but on a per game basis, they were the same damn guy.

Cutler
74-79 W-L
62 comp %
4.9 TD%
3.3 INT%
7.0 Y/A
229.6 ypg
85.3 Rating

Eli
116-116
60.3 comp%
4.5 TD%
3.0 Int%
7.0 Y/A
241.6 ypg
84.1 rating

Jay Cutler was better both on the numbers and eye test. He also would have had a ring if he didn't get murdered against Green Bay. Jay Cutler is also most certainly not a Hall of Famer.

I also wonder if people even remember how the Giants got to the first of those Super Bowls. They had an amazing defensive line and forced teams to throw away the ball. Eli wasn't particularly great in those games himself.

2007-08

TB: 185 yards, 2 TD's
DAL: 163 yards, 2 TD's
GB: 21-40, 251 yards, 0 TD's

He didn't throw a pick in any of those games and that's his claim to fame. In the Super Bowl he threw one and David Tyree had a miracle catch of a terribly thrown ball. It has always been very confusing to me as to why Eli got credit for this playoff run. Their defense deserves all the credit. People should look at the stats that the other QB's were putting up in the games against the Giants.

Now, the second time around, he does absolutely deserve credit and I won't take it away from him, but that's one Super Bowl. The first time around he was a game manager, and players shouldn't get in the Hall of Fame based on that. The rest of his career outside of those Super Bowl seasons was mediocrity and nothing but.

 

[John Price]

 

[YEM]

I also wonder if people even remember how the Giants got to the first of those Super Bowls.

you don't
the first time around he outplayed 3 of the best in the game at the time [and 2 sure thing first ballot HOFers] in Romo, Favre, and Brady and had 3 game winning drives out of that 4 game run. The defense was great during that run, but they trailed or were tied in every game in the 4th quarter after the wild card round. In fact, in their game against Green Bay, Eli led them down the field to win the game 3 times, with their kicker missing the first two attempts to win the game before finally making the FG winner.

 

[Ivan13]

The last time anyone besides Eli beat Brady in two suprebowls was never.

I take it it was Eli harassing Tom with his relentless pass rush the whole night?

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

you're kinda right but his best attribute [and I say this as an eagles fan] was his clutchness
he was more clutch than he was good
cutler was basically the total opposite of that

Eli came through in the clutch for sure. All credit to him. I'm not ripping him, but I just don't think that makes an average or slightly above average QB a HOFer.

Eli had a .500 record as a starter. The Super Bowl rings matter, but he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. I'm sure that he will be though.



Jay Cutler was better both on the numbers and eye test. He also would have had a ring if he didn't get murdered against Green Bay. Jay Cutler is also most certainly not a Hall of Famer.

I also wonder if people even remember how the Giants got to the first of those Super Bowls. They had an amazing defensive line and forced teams to throw away the ball. Eli wasn't particularly great in those games himself.

2007-08

TB: 185 yards, 2 TD's
DAL: 163 yards, 2 TD's
GB: 21-40, 251 yards, 0 TD's

He didn't throw a pick in any of those games and that's his claim to fame. In the Super Bowl he threw one and David Tyree had a miracle catch of a terribly thrown ball. It has always been very confusing to me as to why Eli got credit for this playoff run. Their defense deserves all the credit. People should look at the stats that the other QB's were putting up in the games against the Giants.

Now, the second time around, he does absolutely deserve credit and I won't take it away from him, but that's one Super Bowl. The first time around he was a game manager, and players shouldn't get in the Hall of Fame based on that. The rest of his career outside of those Super Bowl seasons was mediocrity and nothing but.

I'm a Bears fan and I was pro Cutler. But I use the comparison because they are so similar statistically in regular season stats and compare how Eli and Cutler are perceived.

Ultimately, it comes down to what you want your HOF to be. To me, I want it to be the best of the best, the truely elites, not just good players that hung around and won a SB or two. I mean, if somehow Joe Flacco went ape this year and won a SB, would that make him a HOFer? Eli's a little better than that, but not by that much. I don't think Eli was ever the top 5 at his position even for a single season, so I just can't put him in.

 

[YEM]

I take it it was Eli harassing Tom with his relentless pass rush the whole night?

another point regarding those super bowls was time of possession, especially in the 2nd Super Bowl, when the Pats only has the ball for 22 minutes. They also started that 1st Super Bowl with a 10 minute drive. The Giants offense did a tremendous job of keeping the ball away from NE in both those games, and yeah, harassed them with the rush when they had the ball. You guys either don't want to give any credit where it's due, or the memories have faded...

 

[Voight]

Eli had a .500 record as a starter. The Super Bowl rings matter, but he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. I'm sure that he will be though.



Jay Cutler was better both on the numbers and eye test. He also would have had a ring if he didn't get murdered against Green Bay. Jay Cutler is also most certainly not a Hall of Famer.

I also wonder if people even remember how the Giants got to the first of those Super Bowls. They had an amazing defensive line and forced teams to throw away the ball. Eli wasn't particularly great in those games himself.

2007-08

TB: 185 yards, 2 TD's
DAL: 163 yards, 2 TD's
GB: 21-40, 251 yards, 0 TD's

He didn't throw a pick in any of those games and that's his claim to fame. In the Super Bowl he threw one and David Tyree had a miracle catch of a terribly thrown ball. It has always been very confusing to me as to why Eli got credit for this playoff run. Their defense deserves all the credit. People should look at the stats that the other QB's were putting up in the games against the Giants.

Now, the second time around, he does absolutely deserve credit and I won't take it away from him, but that's one Super Bowl. The first time around he was a game manager, and players shouldn't get in the Hall of Fame based on that. The rest of his career outside of those Super Bowl seasons was mediocrity and nothing but.

All football fans agree with you. Problem is, there wasn't a single defensive player who stood out above the rest, specifically in the Super Bowl games. Can't award an entire d-line with the award so by default it goes to the QB. Unless someone plays like Von Miller did in SB50 its hard for a defensive player to win the award.

At the end of the day, if you look at the top 10 QBs in yards, 7 are either hall of famers or locks (Brees, Brady, Peyton) with Roethilisberger getting in too. Rivers + Matt Ryan (he's 11th but will likely pass Moon this season) may make it but aren;t locks. That leaves Eli, who at least has the ring advantage, playing in a major city advantage and playing for a historic franchise advantage. Same with the TD list.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

All football fans agree with you. Problem is, there wasn't a single defensive player who stood out above the rest, specifically in the Super Bowl games. Can't award an entire d-line with the award so by default it goes to the QB. Unless someone plays like Von Miller did in SB50 its hard for a defensive player to win the award.

At the end of the day, if you look at the top 10 QBs in yards, 7 are either hall of famers or locks (Brees, Brady, Peyton) with Roethilisberger getting in too. Rivers + Matt Ryan (he's 11th but will likely pass Moon this season) may make it but aren;t locks. That leaves Eli, who at least has the ring advantage, playing in a major city advantage and playing for a historic franchise advantage. Same with the TD list.

While that statement is factually accurate, it also ignores the context that everyone on that list save for Marino, Moon and Farve (in the league together a few years) are Eli's contemporaries, because the passing game has exploded during his career due to rule changes. Is everyone that plays in the modern era going to make the HOF because the era they play in. Matt Stafford is going to pass Unitas and Montana this year, HOF? Any halfway decent QB that plays 10 years now is going to put up raw numbers that dwarf some of the greats that came before them.

Since Eli entered in 2004, 20 QBs have started 100 games. Eli's QB rating is 18th of those 20 QBs.

Player Season Finder Query Results | Pro-Football-Reference.com

	Games	Passing
Rk	Player	From	To	Draft	Tm	Lg	G	GS	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Pick6	TD%	Int%	Rate	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	ANY/A	Y/G	W	L	T	4QC	GWD
1	Aaron Rodgers	2005	2019	24-Jan	GNB	NFL	167	160	3600	5556	64.79	43356	341	80	2	6.1	1.44	103	419	2739	7.8	8.38	7.34	260	102	57	1	14	20
2	Peyton Manning	2004	2015	1-Jan	TOT	NFL	170	169	3997	5997	66.65	47055	372	141	16	6.2	2.35	101	177	1113	7.9	8.03	7.62	277	132	37	0	27	34
3	Russell Wilson	2012	2019	Mar-75	SEA	NFL	114	114	2138	3316	64.48	26119	201	63	3	6.1	1.9	101	307	2013	7.9	8.23	6.98	229	77	36	1	18	24
4	Tom Brady	2004	2019	6-199	NWE	NFL	223	223	5093	7895	64.51	60886	453	133	9	5.7	1.68	100	372	2335	7.7	8.1	7.45	273	175	48	0	27	33
5	Drew Brees	2004	2019	Feb-32	TOT	NFL	238	238	6081	8922	68.16	69232	493	204	25	5.5	2.29	100	349	2451	7.8	7.84	7.28	291	146	92	0	33	44
6	Tony Romo	2004	2016		DAL	NFL	156	127	2829	4335	65.26	34183	248	117	13	5.7	2.7	97.1	248	1672	7.9	7.81	7.03	219	78	49	0	24	29
7	Philip Rivers	2004	2019	4-Jan	SDG	NFL	214	210	4564	7070	64.55	55282	377	180	23	5.3	2.55	95.6	416	2521	7.8	7.74	6.97	258	119	91	0	26	31
8	Matt Ryan	2008	2019	3-Jan	ATL	NFL	176	176	4112	6290	65.37	47344	300	138	16	4.8	2.19	94.7	326	2172	7.5	7.49	6.8	269	103	73	0	28	37
9	Ben Roethlisberger	2004	2019	11-Jan	PIT	NFL	218	216	4651	7230	64.33	56545	363	191	16	5	2.64	94	503	3320	7.8	7.64	6.71	259	144	71	1	31	42
10	Andy Dalton	2011	2019	Feb-35	CIN	NFL	122	122	2504	4014	62.38	28829	192	105	11	4.8	2.62	89	250	1532	7.2	6.96	6.19	236	68	52	2	20	24
11	Matthew Stafford	2009	2019	1-Jan	DET	NFL	143	143	3421	5480	62.43	39156	242	131	20	4.4	2.39	88.6	332	2129	7.2	6.95	6.19	274	67	75	1	28	34
12	Carson Palmer	2004	2017	1-Jan	TOT	NFL	182	181	3941	6307	62.49	46247	294	187	22	4.7	2.96	87.9	340	2364	7.3	6.93	6.22	254	92	88	1	22	35
13	Alex Smith	2005	2018	1-Jan	TOT	NFL	166	161	3082	4941	62.38	34068	193	101	8	3.9	2.04	87.3	410	2324	6.9	6.76	5.8	205	94	66	1	18	22
14	Cam Newton	2011	2019	1-Jan	CAR	NFL	125	124	2371	3980	59.57	29041	182	108	10	4.6	2.71	86.1	291	2199	7.3	6.99	6	232	68	55	1	15	17
15	Jay Cutler	2006	2017	11-Jan	TOT	NFL	153	153	3048	4920	61.95	35133	227	160	19	4.6	3.25	85.3	322	2035	7.1	6.6	5.81	230	74	79	0	23	28
16	Brett Favre*	2004	2010	Feb-33	TOT	NFL	109	109	2340	3706	63.14	26192	162	127	14	4.4	3.43	84.4	158	1089	7.1	6.4	5.86	240	61	48	0	11	16
17	Joe Flacco	2008	2019	18-Jan	TOT	NFL	165	165	3555	5751	61.82	38805	214	137	10	3.7	2.38	84.2	338	2389	6.8	6.42	5.67	235	96	69	0	18	24
18	Eli Manning	2004	2019	1-Jan	NYG	NFL	234	232	4860	8061	60.29	56537	362	241	22	4.5	2.99	84.1	408	2839	7	6.57	5.91	242	116	116	0	27	37
19	Matt Hasselbeck	2004	2015	6-187	TOT	NFL	132	122	2453	4048	60.6	27554	162	120	11	4	2.96	81.9	252	1609	6.8	6.27	5.53	209	65	57	0	12	16
20	Ryan Fitzpatrick	2005	2019	7-250	TOT	NFL	143	128	2600	4335	59.98	29631	191	152	11	4.4	3.51	80.6	251	1328	6.8	6.14	5.51	207	50	77	1	9	13

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Pestilence]

If Stafford would win two Super Bowls being the MVP he probably would get in as well.

 

[Voight]

If Stafford would win two Super Bowls being the MVP he probably would get in as well.

This is the thing here. Eli will make it to Canton because of his two rings + MVPs, and I agree his stats are that high because of the era he played in, however people usually just like to see gaudy numbers. & what really helps him is that, as I said before, he plays for a historic franchise, in a major media market, with two owners who are pretty influential (one whos family has been around since the league started). Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

Its similar to how Guy Carbonneau got in the HHOF - if he wins those Selkes in St Louis or Carolina I doubt he makes it in, the Habs factor was evident there. ( -- mind you any QB who is a 2x SB MVP is probably going to make it providing they had a 10-15 year career, but Eli is one of a kind here)

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

If Stafford would win two Super Bowls being the MVP he probably would get in as well.

This is the thing here. Eli will make it to Canton because of his two rings + MVPs, and I agree his stats are that high because of the era he played in, however people usually just like to see gaudy numbers. & what really helps him is that, as I said before, he plays for a historic franchise, in a major media market, with two owners who are pretty influential (one whos family has been around since the league started). Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

Its similar to how Guy Carbonneau got in the HHOF - if he wins those Selkes in St Louis or Carolina I doubt he makes it in, the Habs factor was evident there. ( -- mind you any QB who is a 2x SB MVP is probably going to make it providing they had a 10-15 year career, but Eli is one of a kind here)

Yeah, I think he will get in. That's how the HOF has shown to work. I just don't think he should be personally, which is a different argument.

 

[Troy McClure]

you don't
the first time around he outplayed 3 of the best in the game at the time [and 2 sure thing first ballot HOFers] in Romo, Favre, and Brady and had 3 game winning drives out of that 4 game run. The defense was great during that run, but they trailed or were tied in every game in the 4th quarter after the wild card round. In fact, in their game against Green Bay, Eli led them down the field to win the game 3 times, with their kicker missing the first two attempts to win the game before finally making the FG winner.

But you're still talking about two months of good play out of a 15 season career as a starter. For almost all of his career he was not very good.

 

[Voight]

Yeah, I think he will get in. That's how the HOF has shown to work. I just don't think he should be personally, which is a different argument.

I know people will lose it when Eli + Ben get in and Rivers potentially doesn't.

 

[YEM]

But you're still talking about two months of good play out of a 15 season career as a starter.

that is a very hyperbolic statement to make about a 4 time pro-bowler
his best season may have been the one in 2015 when the Giants went 6-10
I can't believe how much space I've devoted here, as an Eagles fan, to defending him [perhaps because we largely owned the giants over his career] but we're talking about a guy who completed 60% of his passes and averaged 4000 yards a season over his career.

Now I don't think he should get into the HOF, because as I said above, he was more clutch than he was good over his career, but there are about 15 guys on that 20 QBs-with-better-stats-than-him list above who would trade career accomplishments with him in a second, because they didn't get it done in the big spots and Eli did. Romo & Rivers for sure, for example.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

John Elway being in HOF and considered among the greatest QB's is what truly lowered HOF bar

Elway is easily the most overrated QB IMO

And since Elway is considered a HOF QB then blocking Eli makes even less sense

Also Eli has more of a case then Aikmen

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I know people will lose it when Eli + Ben get in and Rivers potentially doesn't.

Probably, although I think Ben deserves it. I'm actually conflicted on Rivers HOF chances to be honest. Rivers and Ben are really close statistically and Ben's SBs do push him into the HOF for me personally, while I could go either way on Rivers. I'm not sure if that's controversial or not.

But Eli is a step below both in my mind and his SBs don't make up that gap. But obviously everyone has their own criteria.

 

[member 157595]

John Elway being in HOF and considered among the greatest QB's is what truly lowered HOF bar

Elway is easily the most overrated QB IMO

And since Elway is considered a HOF QB then blocking Eli makes even less sense

Also Eli has more of a case then Aikmen

Aikman is without any doubt more overrated than John Elway.

 

[Troy McClure]

that is a very hyperbolic statement to make about a 4 time pro-bowler
his best season may have been the one in 2015 when the Giants went 6-10
I can't believe how much space I've devoted here, as an Eagles fan, to defending him [perhaps because we largely owned the giants over his career] but we're talking about a guy who completed 60% of his passes and averaged 4000 yards a season over his career.

Now I don't think he should get into the HOF, because as I said above, he was more clutch than he was good over his career, but there are about 15 guys on that 20 QBs-with-better-stats-than-him list above who would trade career accomplishments with him in a second, because they didn't get it done in the big spots and Eli did. Romo & Rivers for sure, for example.

Making the Pro Bowl only four times in 15 full seasons is terrible. Some seasons as many as ten QBs "make the Pro Bowl". But generally, you're talking 8 or so QBs. This means over the course of his 15 season career, he was only seen as one of the 10 best QBs four times? Man, that's more of an argument for why he shouldn't be in the more you look at it.

He never once made the 1st or 2nd All Pro team. Not once.

Completing 60% of his passes is not good. It's why he only one time finished top ten in completion percentage, and even that season, he finished 9th. That's not a good selling point.

 

[YEM]

Making the Pro Bowl only four times in 15 full seasons is terrible. Some seasons as many as ten QBs "make the Pro Bowl".

that's weird then, because there are only 6 active QBs with more pro bowl appearances than Eli
NFL Pro Bowl Selections Career Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

you seem very much hung up on passing stats
I'm not really much into that as a metric regarding QBs because, for example, if you look at only stats then Kirk Cousins looks like an all-time great & everyone throws for tons of yards now. I prefer results, Eli is 9th all-time in game-winning drives since 1960, and everyone in the top 10 on that list is a HOF QB or a shoe-in.

Rivers is a pretty good foil for Eli-same draft year, Phil always has the better numbers [and almost always had the better team] but could never get it done in a big spot and had some horrendous games in the playoffs.

 

[Troy McClure]

Yes, I am hung up on passing stats when looking at a QB. I admit it.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

that's weird then, because there are only 6 active QBs with more pro bowl appearances than Eli
NFL Pro Bowl Selections Career Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

you seem very much hung up on passing stats
I'm not really much into that as a metric regarding QBs because, for example, if you look at only stats then Kirk Cousins looks like an all-time great & everyone throws for tons of yards now. I prefer results, Eli is 9th all-time in game-winning drives since 1960, and everyone in the top 10 on that list is a HOF QB or a shoe-in.

Rivers is a pretty good foil for Eli-same draft year, Phil always has the better numbers [and almost always had the better team] but could never get it done in a big spot and had some horrendous games in the playoffs.

What a ridiculous stat to hang your hat on. Stafford is only 3 back of him. He going to the hall when he passes Eli?

Again, every career passing category is going to be filled with guys playing today. Should all of them be in?

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I know people will lose it when Eli + Ben get in and Rivers potentially doesn't.

Ben is absolutely a HOFer. Eli will be. Rivers is on the borderline. His overal lack of clutchness definitely hurts him.

 

[YEM]

What a ridiculous stat to hang your hat on. Stafford is only 3 back of him. He going to the hall when he passes Eli?

yeah he will for sure if he wins 2 SBs
duh

Yes, I am hung up on passing stats when looking at a QB. I admit it.

nice
that puts a pretty big hole in your entire "he only had 2 good months" argument then, since Eli is top 10 in a lot of the important QB stats.