Edmonton-21 vs Pittsburgh-09

[Empoleon8771]

The Pens depth is a mirage though.

If the Pens would’ve ran say..

Malkin - Crosby - Guerin
Kunitz - Staal - Fedotenko.

Is this bottom six any better than Edmonton’s?

Cooke - Talbot - Kennedy
Dupuis - Adams - Satan

Yes, quite easily.

The Penguins depth in 2009 wasn't anything amazing, but the Oilers current depth is just terrible. It's not even a contest, which is why McDavid just beat Lemieux's record with having points on like 58.5% of all Oilers goals. Crosby and Malkin never even remotely approached those levels just because the Penguins depth was way better.

 

[Empoleon8771]

McDavid-Draisaitl line stats
Crosby-Malkin line stats

The Oilers only had 32 goals this year when both McDavid and Draisaitl weren't on the ice. That's only 0.57 goals/game. The Penguins in 2008-2009 had 84 goals where both Crosby and Malkin weren't on the ice, which is 1.02 goals/game. It's not even close, the Oilers current depth is just substantially less productive than the 2008-2009 Penguins depth, to nearly the scale of the 08-09 Penguins being twice as productive.

 

[Gurglesons]

McDavid-Draisaitl line stats
Crosby-Malkin line stats

The Oilers only had 32 goals this year when both McDavid and Draisaitl weren't on the ice. That's only 0.57 goals/game. The Penguins in 2008-2009 had 84 goals where both Crosby and Malkin weren't on the ice, which is 1.02 goals/game. It's not even close, the Oilers current depth is just substantially less productive than the 2008-2009 Penguins depth, to nearly the scale of the 08-09 Penguins being twice as productive.

McDavid-Draisaitl line stats
Crosby-Malkin line stats

The Oilers only had 32 goals this year when both McDavid and Draisaitl weren't on the ice. That's only 0.57 goals/game. The Penguins in 2008-2009 had 84 goals where both Crosby and Malkin weren't on the ice, which is 1.02 goals/game. It's not even close, the Oilers current depth is just substantially less productive than the 2008-2009 Penguins depth, to nearly the scale of the 08-09 Penguins being twice as productive.

now do it with Staal and RNH. Comparable numbers when prorated for 82 games.

 

[BudBundy]

There are some parallels, but I think the Pens D corps was a bit tougher and more steady overall than the Oilers current group. There are still a lot of brain cramps in our group and it remains to be seen how they stand up to an NHL playoff-style grind.

 

[Empoleon8771]

now do it with Staal and RNH. Comparable numbers when prorated for 82 games.

Even if you do take out Staal and RNH, that drops the Penguins to 39 goals in 82 games without Crosby, Malkin or Staal and it drops the Oilers to 25 goals in 56 games without McDavid, Draisaitl and RNH. That's still an advantage for the Penguins (albeit much smaller).

This also doesn't mention that the Oilers without McDavid, Draisaitl and RNH are downright horrid at 5v5, with an xGF% of 41.89%, while the 08-09 Penguins without Crosby, Malkin and Staal were at 45.41%. That's still not good, but it is better than what the Oilers had.

 

[Gurglesons]

Even if you do take out Staal and RNH, that drops the Penguins to 39 goals in 82 games without Crosby, Malkin or Staal and it drops the Oilers to 25 goals in 56 games without McDavid, Draisaitl and RNH. That's still an advantage for the Penguins (albeit much smaller).

36 goals prorated in a 82 game season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

36 goals prorated in a 82 game season.

Yes, and that's still an advantage for the Penguins because they scored 39. Not to mention that the Penguins without Crosby, Malkin and Staal had better analytics than the Oilers without McDavid, Draisaitl and RNH.

There just isn't a statistical argument for the 2021 Oilers depth above the Penguins depth. It just doesn't exist because the Oilers depth is just flat out worse.

 

[Habs10025]

Yes, quite easily.

The Penguins depth in 2009 wasn't anything amazing, but the Oilers current depth is just terrible. It's not even a contest, which is why McDavid just beat Lemieux's record with having points on like 58.5% of all Oilers goals. Crosby and Malkin never even remotely approached those levels just because the Penguins depth was way better.

Mario Lemieux's record is in a 80 game season involving the entire league. This season was a 56 game seaaon with teams only playing 25% of the league .

The two seasons are not comparable.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes, and that's still an advantage for the Penguins because they scored 39. Not to mention that the Penguins without Crosby, Malkin and Staal had better analytics than the Oilers without McDavid, Draisaitl and RNH.

There just isn't a statistical argument for the 2021 Oilers depth above the Penguins depth. It just doesn't exist because the Oilers depth is just flat out worse.

I mean I think there is.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Mario Lemieux's record is in a 80 game season involving the entire league. This season was a 56 game saeaon with teams only only playing 25% of the league .

The two seasons are not comparable .

Games played is completely irrelevant to what the stat says. You thinking games played matters doesn't mean it actually matters.

That stat shows how bad the Oilers are away from McDavid more than anything else.

I mean I think there is.

Then what is it? The Penguins depth was more productive, had better analytics and I'd argue is better on paper as well. What's the argument there?

 

[Habs10025]

Games played is completely irrelevant to what the stat says. You thinking games played matters doesn't mean it actually matters.

That stat shows how bad the Oilers are away from McDavid more than anything else.



Then what is it? The Penguins depth was more productive, had better analytics and I'd argue is better on paper as well. What's the argument there?

McDavid only playing 25% of the league in the worst division in 56 game season

Mario Lemieux still owns the record .

 

[Empoleon8771]

McDavid only playing 25% of the league in the worst division in 56 game season

Mario Lemieux still owns the record .

Again, you thinking that means absolutely nothing. Your subjective interpretation of the stat doesn't magically change the stat.

 

[Habs10025]

Again, you thinking that means absolutely nothing. Your subjective interpretation of the stat doesn't magically change the stat.

Sure.

 

[frisco]

Crosby + Malkin > McDavid + Draisaitl at least in the playoffs. The Oiler 1-2 hasn't proved they can take it through the meat grinder that is the NHL playoffs through four rounds and produce at high level. Big edge for the Pens duo playoff-wise. Now's the year to prove it for the other two in the weak North.

My Best-Carey

 

[Sweetpotato]

Mario Lemieux's record is in a 80 game season involving the entire league. This season was a 56 game seaaon with teams only playing 25% of the league .

The two seasons are not comparable.

Is there an empirical reason you can show us that would support your claim?

McDavid only playing 25% of the league in the worst division in 56 game season

Mario Lemieux still owns the record .

I think you don't understand what this stat means or how it is produced/effected by outside sources.

 

[Habs10025]

Is there an empirical reason you can show us that would support your claim?

I think you don't understand what this stat means or how it is produced/effected by outside sources.

Percentages and averages change with the number of games played goals scored against the entire league 1988-1989 - 80 games were played.

 

[Sweetpotato]

Percentages and averages change with the number of games played goals scored against the entire league 1988-1989 - 80 games were played.

Yes they would, so those percentages would change at least semi uniformly throughout the line up of the Edmonton Oilers as a team. Unless you think that the Edmonton Oilers as a team gained no benefit from facing the North Division or playing a shortened season while simultaneously Connor McDavid put up a historic season because of those two factors.

The team share in points is the record that we're all refering to and is Connor McDavid vs his team, so unless you think his team gained no benefit from those factors, his teammates production would increase which in terms of this statistic, would render no benefit to Connor in this instance.

 

[Connor McConnor]

It's a pretty interesting poll but if you look at the rosters Pitt had to go through to get to the cup, you start to realize why they won. Go take a look at Carolina and Detroit's rosters that year and tell me where they rank in today's NHL. They should have lost against the Caps who completely choked that series while being the best team in the NHL. Anyways, we get it, McDrai have to win a cup and they have to be the best player's on the team while doing it.

 

[Draiskull]

Kahun - McDavid - Pulju
RNH - Drai - Turris
Neal -Haas - Chiasson
Nygard - Kahira - Archibald

Kunitz - Crosby - Guerin
Fedotenko - Malkin - Talbot
Cooke - Staal - Kennedy
Adam - Dupuis - Satan

Not really seeing a huge difference.

Oilers have no Guerin and no Staal.
Had Holland bought at deadline the forwards would have been more comparable.
Oilers have Kahun playing on top line and no scoring threat in bottom 6.
Kahun, Turris, Neal, Chiasson, Nygard, Khaira , Haas all have been healthy scratches this season.

Kulikov playing top 4 D also shows this group isnt a cup contender yet.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I'm really confused for why I'm seeing Penguins fans in here talking down that 2009 Penguins team. I just don't see a legitimate argument for the Oilers minus McDavid and Draisaitl against the 2009 Penguins minus Crosby and Malkin.

Because if you trash those guys then it makes Crosby look better.

 

[ManofSteel55]

The Pens had really good depth. Edmonton's 3rd line is really a 2nd 4th line. Or, it has been up until McLeod was called up anyway, and he has looked good but is still less than 10 games in to his career.

 

[Habs10025]

Yes they would, so those percentages would change at least semi uniformly throughout the line up of the Edmonton Oilers as a team. Unless you think that the Edmonton Oilers as a team gained no benefit from facing the North Division or playing a shortened season while simultaneously Connor McDavid put up a historic season because of those two factors.

The team share in points is the record that we're all refering to and is Connor McDavid vs his team, so unless you think his team gained no benefit from those factors, his teammates production would increase which in terms of this statistic, would render no benefit to Connor in this instance.

Lemieux played all the talent in the league .
McDavid played in the worst division only playing 25 % of the league .

 

[Sweetpotato]

Lemieux played all the talent in the league .
McDavid played in the worst division only playing 25 % of the league .

Right, and if that's true(which it isn't)then their teammates played in the same division. Point share % is 1 players share of their teams goals. The worse the division the more teams and their players will score, so if McDavid is scoring more his teammates will be.

Playing in the worst division, which he
doesn't, doesn't effect point share %.

 

[nowhereman]

It's a pretty interesting poll but if you look at the rosters Pitt had to go through to get to the cup, you start to realize why they won. Go take a look at Carolina and Detroit's rosters that year and tell me where they rank in today's NHL. They should have lost against the Caps who completely choked that series while being the best team in the NHL. Anyways, we get it, McDrai have to win a cup and they have to be the best player's on the team while doing it.

The same Detroit team that had Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Franzen, and Rafalski and won the Cup the year prior? I imagine they'd do pretty damn well in today's league (i.e. best team in the league). Carolina also had a lot of the players still left over from their Cup run from a few year's prior and were won of the hottest team's in the league toward the end of the year. Washington was actually NOT the best team in the league and claiming that they "choked" takes away from the fact that they lost to a Penguins team that was simply better when it mattered most.

All of those teams are much better than, say, last year's Chicago Blackhawks...

 

[Habs10025]

Right, and if that's true(which it isn't)then their teammates played in the same division. Point share % is 1 players share of their teams goals. The worse the division the more teams and their players will score, so if McDavid is scoring more his teammates will be.

Playing in the worst division, which he
doesn't, doesn't effect point share %.

Odds of McDavid producing less individual points would have been greater playing against better teams .