Edmonton-21 vs Pittsburgh-09

Discussion in 'Polls - (hockey-related only)' started by Kshahdoo, May 15, 2021.

?

Are McDrai teammates as good as Crosby/Malkin ones or not?

  1. Yes, they are

    23.3%
  2. No, they are not

    76.7%
  1. Kshahdoo Registered User

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    So some people say, that McDavid + Draisaitl are better, than Crosby + Malkin. Which means, that Edmonton's duo can win the Cup, if their teammates are at least as good as 2009 Pens. The question is, are their teammates as good as those Pens or not?
     
  2. bobholly39 Registered User

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    I voted yes they are. I would have voted "about the same" if possible.

    Pens won because of Crosby + Malkin. If Edmonton wins - it'll have to be because of McDrai.
     
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  3. Korg Registered User

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    Pittsburgh had hungrier vets, better defense and forward depth, especially in terms of a mix of playstyles. Goaltending is debatable.

    Cooke-Staal-Kennedy is a solid matchup line. Edmonton doesn't have anything comparable in their bottom-six.
     
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  4. North Cole ♧ Lem

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    Well our forwards are likely worse after Nuge/Staal (by how much IDK), but I think Smith is currently playing at a level better than Flower that year. As far as the D goes, I think ours is better offensively while theirs is better defensively.

    I've actually posted the 09 team a few times when coming across people saying McDrai can't carry the Oilers to a cup. That 09 team didn't do much offensively outside of Malkin/Crosby during the regular season. However guys like Guerin really showed out in the playoffs. If Smith can play at 0.915 and someone like Neal can play at Fern-lite production we can go far.

    For reference, in 06 Fern had 14-4-18 in 24 playoff games. If we can have a slightly lesser version of that, I think we do well. The 06 team had Pronger but didn't have supernova guys like Drai and McDavid so its a tradeoff. I do miss Gator though...one of my Favorite Oilers. Ironically Smith this year reminds me a lot of Rolly.

    I think the D is close enough and Smith playing at a higher level offsets some of the Pens better forward depth, so I voted Yes.
     
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  5. Sidney the Kidney Missing Link

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    I don't know why people believe the bolded. Both teams' defense corps are about middle of the pack relative to their respective leagues to give the Pens any sort of advantage.

    Orpik - Gonchar
    Gill - Scuderi
    Eaton - Letang

    Vs.

    Nurse - Barrie
    Kulikov - Larsson
    Jones/Russell - Bear

    Where's the clear edge? Gonchar was 35, not the prime version of himself. And Letang was only in his second full season and was primarily a third pairing guy at the time, again, not the prime version of himself.
     
  6. snipes How cold? I’m ice cold.

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    Yeah, I don’t think there’s a clear edge for the Pens either.

    Nurse is far and away the best D man of that entire group. I would give the slight edge to Oilers D core with the way Barrie and especially Larsson defensively have played this year.

    Where the Pens had an advantage is the forward depth after McDrai + Nuge. I like the Pens bottom 6 a lot more from that run.

    This is a good thread though, I actually think the 2009 Pens and 2021 Oilers are quite comparable. Interesting to analyze.

    I think McDavid has that Michael Jordan “And I took that personally” type motivation this year. He has played so hard and competitively at both ends of the ice, he’s also thrown some huge hits this year and has a nastiness to his game he never really displayed before this season.
     
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  7. Gurglesons Registered User

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    Kahun - McDavid - Pulju
    RNH - Drai - Turris
    Neal -Haas - Chiasson
    Nygard - Kahira - Archibald

    Kunitz - Crosby - Guerin
    Fedotenko - Malkin - Talbot
    Cooke - Staal - Kennedy
    Adam - Dupuis - Satan

    Not really seeing a huge difference.
     
  8. Gurglesons Registered User

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    2009 Pens bottom six depth was trash. The Staal line was good, but that was mainly due to playing Malkin with a career 4th liner and Fedotenko. Oilers could easily have RNH as their 3C and it'd look identical.
     
  9. Korg Registered User

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    If Klefbom were healthy they'd be even, but as is Gonchar is the best defenseman from either team and the rest of that group are reliable, if unspectacular options that can play 18-20 minutes on a contender. Kulikov, Jones and Russell are all fringe NHL defensemen that would be healthy-scratched more often than not if they were on the '09 Pens.

    Neither is an awe-inspiring defense corps though.
     
  10. Sidney the Kidney Missing Link

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    I'm not sure the Pens' depth is all that better than the Oilers' depth, though. Part of why the Oilers depth looks so bad is because they're stacking either McDavid with Draisaitl, or even if they're apart, they have RNH with one of them instead of spreading each center out over their own line.

    Pens' forward depth appears deeper because that's what the Pens did. Crosby, Malkin and Staal all centered their own line. Their forward depth would take a huge hit if they'd run Crosby with Malkin on the top line, then Staal centering the second line.

    If you removed Crosby/Malkin/Staal and McDavid/Draisaitl/RNH from the equation and just focused on what's left, I don't see that much of a difference in the leftovers. Minor edge to the Pens because of how effective guys like Kunitz and Cooke were in their roles. But not to the extent that one is clearly a much deeper and talented supporting cast than the other.

    Russell is essentially what Mark Eaton was. Hell, the Pens' "shutdown pairing" of Scuderi and Gill were horrendous with the puck on their stick. So while both were battlers and tended to take care of their own zone well enough, they weren't exactly guys who are superior to the likes of Larsson, Bear, etc. (ie. the Oilers' depth D).

    There's a reason Hal Gill was often called the USS Gill. Because he took as much time to turn around as an aircraft carrier would take to turn.
     
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  11. Korg Registered User

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    If Edmonton had the depth to play McDavid, Draisaitl & RNH separately like Pittsburgh did with Crosby, Malkin & Staal, then they would, since obviously that would be better. But they can't without compromising the effectiveness of their top-six. Guys like Cooke, Kunitz, Guerin, Dupuis, Talbot etc. may not have been sexy names but most of them played 1000 games or close to it because they were very effective in their role and several were sought after by contenders. Even guys like Sykora and Satan played 1000 games and were getting healthy-scratched. Edmonton has guys you wouldn't take on the waiver wire getting regular minutes.

    The Pens forward depth may not be great, but most of them could individually crack a stacked forward group like the 2020 Lightning, even if the Pens are worse as a whole. The Oilers have five, maybe six if I'm feeling generous that could crack Tampa's roster. While the roster is slightly different, the 2010-11 Penguins with Crosby, Malkin & Staal all missing half the season were able to finish tied for 3rd in the league and take the Lightning to 7. Meanwhile the Oilers went, like, two years without winning a game where McDrai were held scoreless. The Penguins depth could reliably keep the ship afloat, the Oilers depth cannot.

    Sure, they couldn't move the puck for shit, but they didn't inhibit 87 & 71 from doing their thing or sewer you when they were on the ice with the bottom-six. They (and Orpik) were also guys contending teams wanted to add either in free agency or at the deadline. They're not world beaters, but you know where you stand with guys like that because they play within their limits. A lot of Leafs fans bitched about Hainsey, but he's an easy guy to play with because he's reliable, there is some value in guys like that. Larsson plays along those lines as well, but the other Oilers are a bit hit or miss. I don't think the difference is huge, but if both teams had missed the playoffs and were deadline sellers, the Pens D would attract more interest.
     
  12. Sidney the Kidney Missing Link

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    I mean, the Pens won the Cup with a top six of Kunitz/Crosby/Guerin and Fedotenko/Malkin/Talbot. You can't honestly tell me that that's so much more superior to RNH, Yamamoto, Archibald, Neal, Chiasson that the Oilers can't put Draisaitl and McDavid on separate lines with two of those aforementioned names on each of their wings?

    Again, the Penguins have always had more depth than they appear because Crosby and Malkin are constantly doing "more with less". They won again in 2016 with a rookie Sheary and Hornqvist flanking Crosby, and a rookie Rust and an over the hill Kunitz flanking Malkin. Yes, they had HBK, but that's the point. They were able to run HBK as their third line because they put two unproven rookies and one past his prime veteran in their top six instead of stacking Kessel with either of Crosby or Malkin.

    The depth guys the Pens had like Satan and Sykora, at that point, were similar to the depth guys the Oilers have who used to be good, but aren't that level anymore in Neal and Turris. And guys like Talbot, Fedotenko, Kennedy, Dupuis, etc. are no different than your Archibalds, Khairas, Chiasson's of the world.

    I will say the one clear edge the Pens had was the Staal line. But in terms of the top six wingers who played with Crosby/Malkin and the ones available to play with McDavid and Draisaitl, there's not any noticeable difference. The only difference is the Pens are willing to play Crosby/Malkin separately to allow them to have 2 dangerous lines rather than just one stacked line and then crap afterwards.

    That's no different than the Oilers' defense. Scuderi, Gill, Eaton, Orpik are no different than your Larsson, Russell, Kulikov, etc. of the world. Barrie provides just as much offense (though not as good defensively) as Gonchar, and both Bear and Letang were young kids with potential but who hadn't quite reached it yet. And I don't think that Pens team had a Nurse.
     
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  13. Ace of Hades #Demko4Vezina

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    For starters, they don't have a Letang type player.
     
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  14. mrquincy27 Registered User

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    Penguins deadline grabs that year were huge
     
  15. bambamcam4ever 107 and counting

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    Isn't this a huge indictment of McDavid and Draisaitl then? That they need the team to put all their eggs in the top 6 or the team will suffer. Either that or the Oilers' priority is to make their individual point totals look good.

    Also, the 2009 Penguins only scored 17 non-EN goals in 24 games without either Crosby or Malkin on the ice. And had subpar goaltending. Yet despite that those two players carried them to a cup.
     
  16. bambamcam4ever 107 and counting

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    Yep, Chris Kunitz in the middle of a career-worst 1 goal in 40 games slump was the key.
     
  17. Sidney the Kidney Missing Link

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    Why does this type of thing keep being brought up? We're talking about the 2009 Cup team. Letang was a third pairing defender who was only in his 2nd full season at that point.

    Stop mentioning Letang as though it was prime Letang.
     
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  18. Korg Registered User

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    I think it's a indictment of RNH most of all. I don't think they need him so much as he needs them. I don't know what the Oilers depth will or more likely won't do during these playoffs but they were out-scored 29-51 at 5v5 without 29 & 97, where as the 2009 Penguins out-scored their opponents 61-59 without 71 & 87 at 5v5 and then were out-scored 12-17 in the playoffs. I don't think these rosters sans their best two players are close enough for there to be a debate which one is better.
     
  19. Luigi Lemieux Registered User

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    Imo the pens had players that were solid and did the little things to win up and down the lineup. Cooke-Staal-Kennedy was one of if not the best third line in the league. Gill-Scuderi was an excellent shut down pair.

    Looking strictly at offense it might be comparable but the pens had gamers throughout the lineup, no real dead weight. Oilers bottom 6 is barely nhl quality.
     
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  20. Korg Registered User

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    I think the difference is in the quality, quantity and versatility of forwards past RNH and Staal. The Penguins had half a dozen top-9 guys that could skate an NHL shift without a superstar and not get caved in, the Oilers have half that. The only move the Oilers have to jumpstart a line is to either put McDavid and Draisaitl together or to pull them apart. The Penguins had more guys that could play on lines one through four if they needed to make adjustments.

    I'm not claiming they have great or even good depth, just better than Edmonton.

    If there is no difference then perhaps Therrien and Bylsma are geniuses for getting their equally poor group to out-perform the Oilers.

    The difference isn't as much this year, the Pens duo played together about 30% of the time at 5v5 vs 35% for the Oilers duo. But generally speaking, I agree.

    I think the Pens group were less temperamental, they generally played at the same level -albeit not a very high level- regardless of team/teammate quality. The Oilers players go through extreme swings of quality that appears to have everything to do with whether or not McDrai are on the ice and require more compartmentalization. I do agree that they had no Nurse equivalent until Letang's breakout though.
     
  21. Sidney the Kidney Missing Link

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    A couple of last points:

    I was referring specifically to the 2009 Cup run. That year the Pens had 99 points in the regular season, this year the Oilers finished with 72 points in 56 games, which projects to a 105 point pace.

    It's not like Crosby and Malkin had the benefit of a team that was killing it all season.

    In this case, I'm talking about the Pens line combinations in the playoffs. The Pens won a Cup in 2009 without the benefit of stacking the top line other than the odd "when trailing in the third" type situations. Crosby played slightly over 40 minutes at 5on5 with Malkin in the playoffs, while playing slightly over 320 minutes without him.

    They made that team's offense go in the playoffs by being on different lines, and playing with lesser linemates in order to have that kind of balance.

    In all, I think people are romanticizing how good that roster was because they look at the names and judge the roster not based on how those players performed *that year* but how those players performed *at their very best*. Just look how many folks mention "they had Letang", ignoring the fact that the 2009 version of Letang wasn't anywhere close to prime Letang.
     
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  22. Gurglesons Registered User

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    Half dozen top nine guys? Who? Talbot was a 4th liner his entire career, Tyler Kennedy was basically out of the league after getting off the Penguins. Craig Adams? Satan who was playing in the AHL?

    The Penguins essentially had Chris Kunitz Matt Cooke and Fedotenko as proven top nine forwards then Bill Guerin and Sykora on their last legs.


     
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  23. ujju2 Registered User

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    Yamamoto should be in Turris's spot. McLeod in Haas's spot. And Shore in Nygard's. Those guys got some rest the past couple games but should be good to go for Wednesday.

    Kahun-McDavid-Puljujarvi
    RNH-Draisaitl-Yamamoto
    Neal-McLeod-Chiasson
    Shore/Haas-Khaira-Archibald
     
  24. Gurglesons Registered User

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    so even better than.
     
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  25. Korg Registered User

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    They weren't Oilers bad though. I posted the 5v5 numbers up thread. Oilers were 29-51 without McDrai, not including the active game. The Penguins were 61-59 in the season and 12-17 in the playoffs. Even in the playoffs, the Pens without 87 & 71 were better than the Oilers without McDrai vs the North.

    I agree, I just don't believe the Oilers could do the same even if McDrai separated played as well as Crosby and Malkin did. Their bottom-six will sewer them.

    I don't think that roster was good, but it had a bunch of guys who could do all the auxiliary things a championship team needs aside from scoring. i.e., hit, defend, kill penalties, make a key save, chip in the odd goal etc. They weren't good enough to do them routinely otherwise the Penguins would have won more than one Cup during the Obama administration. I just don't think the other Oilers have that in them at all, or at least not enough of them do.
     

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