Confirmed with Link: [EDM/PIT] Perron to Pens for 1st Rounder 2015 and Rob Klinkhammer: Part 2

[Replacement*]

Actually you are the one suggesting things contrary to objective evidence and most observations, i'm reinforcing the current reality of Klinkhammer being an NHL player who's been effective. Klinkhammer has traditionally had quality possesion stats iitc, had enough value to be acquired in two trades and not just waived, has put up respectable offensive totals as a pro, has not been outscored at even strength, hits as he's been asked to and yet you still insist he's not a useful player. You're narritive doesn't match the current realities. My whole argument was far from he was on a Tippet coached team, but i do think it's a reasonable tell even if it isn't definitive. He's a role player so of course he has his flaws, but he's honest to god filling a role we can use and has done so on competent teams putting up competent results over a reasonable amount of time.

Most observations are that Klink is a bit player, age 28, that has never been good enough to define a role in the NHL. He's a fill player, as suggested in a capped league with some member teams that want to pare budget. The sole reason he had as many games as he did in Arizona.

When has Klink performed an appreciable role on competent teams? Arizona last season had a significant downturn and were clearly entering into the also ran ranks.

 

[LTIR]

Klink is 28yrs old and other that for an org that is desperate to save money and have cheap player fill has not been an NHL player anywhere else for any appreciable time. Had Yotes not reverted to a team that was pulling the plug on icing a competitive lineup Klink would be toiling somewhere in the AHL and unheard of here.

This is a bit role player in a capped league that is only ever in the league due to a team having horrible market conditions or needing low cost fill.

I'm in a thread the context of which is trading a very good player for Klinkhammer and a pick. With people deciding to shine up Klinkhammer.

How am I supposed to reasonably respond? Other than with perfectly reasonable counterpoint which I've done.

Nothing wrong with 28yo players.. We need more of these since its pretty much the ideal prime year.

As for this thread ... the deal is Perron for a 1st round pick plus a servicable NHLer\13th forward.

A first round pick holds a lot of value considering what other players have gone for in past.

Perron had what 5 goals .. 19 points in half a season for us and was -17 .. He may be a "very good player" but he wasnt producing like one here.

 

[Approved Variety]

if you can't distinguish the value difference of Dustin Brown vs Klinkhammer were sure not to agree on any of this.

You're misusing the word value. If $$ wasn't important and there was no cap, then yes- Dustin Brown would be a more valuable 12th forward for us.

For under a million dollars, we have a decent shutdown line 12th forward who hits and skates well.

Are you wrong that there are better players out there? No, of course not.

Are you wrong when you say we didn't win the trade? Nah.

Are you wrong when you say Klink isn't a decent 4th liner, and hasn't played well for us? Absolutely you are.

 

[LaGu]

Perron being gone has nothing to do with why we are winning. Coaching is the most clear and simple attribution at this point. In fact we're missing a depth player and Perron would of course be a better winger option than someone like Fraser or Klinkhammer.

Agreed. My point was not about that at all really. I'd love to have Perron here instead of Fraser, anyone in their right mind would.

I was simply stating a couple of facts which are important to me. 1) perron is not here anymore; 2) we are playing better hockey now than in a long time (imo) and 3) the way in which we lost perron was odd.

I don't really know what was wrong with my post...

 

[Replacement*]

Nothing wrong with 28yo players.. We need more of these since its pretty much the ideal prime year.

As for this thread ... the deal is Perron for a 1st round pick plus a servicable NHLer\13th forward.

A first round pick holds a lot of value considering what other players have gone for in past.

Perron had what 5 goals .. 19 points in half a season for us and was -17 .. He may be a "very good player" but he wasnt producing like one here.

A late first round pick holds not substantial value as per what has gone on in the past. The thing is you've got a huge chance, I'd say 90%, of getting a player less valuable than Perron. Even if the pick is awesome. Theres a very good chance a late first rounder doesn't end up being an NHLer.

You're misusing the word value. If $$ wasn't important and there was no cap, then yes- Dustin Brown would be a more valuable 12th forward for us.

For under a million dollars, we have a decent shutdown line 12th forward who hits and skates well.

Are you wrong that there are better players out there? No, of course not.

Are you wrong when you say we didn't win the trade? Nah.

Are you wrong when you say Klink isn't a decent 4th liner, and hasn't played well for us? Absolutely you are.

But heres the deal. The Oilers aren't hurting for cap. The Oilers ****ed over a diehard fan with this deal and I don't know anybody that wanted Perron gone. Instead of watching a highly skilled entertaining player were stuck with watching more dregs like Fraser and Klinkhamer. if I wanted to watch AHL hockey I would. The fanbase should be upset about moves like this. its the org saying we want to be worse. No reason to trade Perron for months. Draft day would be good.
This org should be doing everything possible to have this team be as palatable as possible. Seeing entertaining players at least serves the function of entertainment.

We can't have good things here.

 

[Replacement*]

Agreed. My point was not about that at all really. I'd love to have Perron here instead of Fraser, anyone in their right mind would.

I was simply stating a couple of facts which are important to me. 1) perron is not here anymore; 2) we are playing better hockey now than in a long time (imo) and 3) the way in which we lost perron was odd.

I don't really know what was wrong with my post...

There is no wrong. Its discussion. Just thought you were emphasizing player impact on club a little much when Coaching change has been the obvious thing that has improved. The team is better with Nelson as coach. The team would likely be better than it is with Nelson as coach and Perron as a player.

 

[Mr Positive]

Imo the main reason it was okay to trade Perron is because we are so deep in wingers. That's why we can still win without Perron. Yakupov is starting to play better, Purcell has been playing well, and Pouliot has been excellent. It upgrades the team to give Perron's minutes to those players and get a useful role player back in Klinkhammer, even if Perron is superior to those scoring wingers.

Perron wasn't producing here either so there's no measurable loss by trading Perron.

 

[Neatman]

Imo the main reason it was okay to trade Perron is because we are so deep in wingers. That's why we can still win without Perron. Yakupov is starting to play better, Purcell has been playing well, and Pouliot has been excellent. It upgrades the team to give Perron's minutes to those players and get a useful role player back in Klinkhammer, even if Perron is superior to those scoring wingers.

Perron wasn't producing here either so there's no measurable loss by trading Perron.

No measurable loss?
They gave up a winger who just scored 28 goals on a horrible team for a pick that will likely be in the last handful of the first round. Even if EVERYTHING goes their way, the player they pick will be unlikely to be as good as Perron and could easily take 5-8 years to be a solid player.

They gave up a struggling player who was a 10th overall pick + a VERY high 2nd rounder for a player in what was seen as a "steal" of a trade by many. At the very least an excellent trade. They then see Perron's value go up as he scores a career high in goals. How do you manage to then trade that player for a pick barely better than the one you gave up (possibly in a better year though), and a meh 4th liner.

How will this team ever move forward? They manage to turn even their victories into defeat.

 

[OilerTyler]

Imo the main reason it was okay to trade Perron is because we are so deep in wingers. That's why we can still win without Perron. Yakupov is starting to play better, Purcell has been playing well, and Pouliot has been excellent. It upgrades the team to give Perron's minutes to those players and get a useful role player back in Klinkhammer, even if Perron is superior to those scoring wingers.

Perron wasn't producing here either so there's no measurable loss by trading Perron.

Perron wasn't producing here because we anchored him with Arcobello and Draisaitl the entire year.

Maybe instead of giving up on him we should've given him a capable offensive centre to work with. It's no coincidence that the rest of the wingers have started to play better since we added Roy to the team. I would have liked to see what Perron could do with Roy before trading him for futures and spare parts.

 

[Replacement*]

Imo the main reason it was okay to trade Perron is because we are so deep in wingers. That's why we can still win without Perron. Yakupov is starting to play better, Purcell has been playing well, and Pouliot has been excellent. It upgrades the team to give Perron's minutes to those players and get a useful role player back in Klinkhammer, even if Perron is superior to those scoring wingers.

Perron wasn't producing here either so there's no measurable loss by trading Perron.

"we're so deep with wingers" and we've replaced a potential allstar NHLer with AHL fill.

I can't reconcile that.

For a 2nd line winger Perron certainly produced during his Edmonton run. We should be lucky to get that level of production from anybody.


NOBODY produces with an AHL center named Arcobello.

Theres a theme there.

 

[Replacement*]

No measurable loss?
They gave up a winger who just scored 28 goals on a horrible team for a pick that will likely be in the last handful of the first round. Even if EVERYTHING goes their way, the player they pick will be unlikely to be as good as Perron and could easily take 5-8 years to be a solid player.

They gave up a struggling player who was a 10th overall pick + a VERY high 2nd rounder for a player in what was seen as a "steal" of a trade by many. At the very least an excellent trade. They then see Perron's value go up as he scores a career high in goals. How do you manage to then trade that player for a pick barely better than the one you gave up (possibly in a better year though), and a meh 4th liner.

How will this team ever move forward? They manage to turn even their victories into defeat.

Please post more often. What else can I say. Just when I thought commonsense left the building.

 

[Rawg]

"we're so deep with wingers" and we've replaced a potential allstar NHLer with AHL fill.

For a 2nd line winger Perron certainly produced during his Edmonton run. We should be lucky to get that level of production from anybody.

We have the same production in Pouliot, but he brings stupid penalties with him

 

[SPIRIT]

No measurable loss?
They gave up a winger who just scored 28 goals on a horrible team for a pick that will likely be in the last handful of the first round. Even if EVERYTHING goes their way, the player they pick will be unlikely to be as good as Perron and could easily take 5-8 years to be a solid player.

They gave up a struggling player who was a 10th overall pick + a VERY high 2nd rounder for a player in what was seen as a "steal" of a trade by many. At the very least an excellent trade. They then see Perron's value go up as he scores a career high in goals. How do you manage to then trade that player for a pick barely better than the one you gave up (possibly in a better year though), and a meh 4th liner.

How will this team ever move forward? They manage to turn even their victories into defeat.

23 Ryan Kesler
24 Mike Richards
25 Anthony Stewart
26 Brian Boyle
27 Jeff Tambellini
28 Corey Perry
29 Patrick Eaves
30 Shawn Belle

If 2015 is like 2003... a Richards, Kesley, or Perry wouldn't hurt .

 

[Replacement*]

We have the same production in Pouliot, but he brings stupid penalties with him

Pouliot is playing with a former 86pt NHL Center.

Perron was playing with the pretend NHL Center you're so crazy about.

One isn't like the other.

Perron would be around ppg here with a quality Center. Even Gagner helped him to 28goals.

 

[obglim]

23 Ryan Kesler
24 Mike Richards
25 Anthony Stewart
26 Brian Boyle
27 Jeff Tambellini
28 Corey Perry
29 Patrick Eaves
30 Shawn Belle

If 2005 is like 2003... a Richards, Kesley, or Perry wouldn't hurt .

The oilers would pick Shawn Belle. Or trade down from Richards to pick Shawn Belle and Jeff Tambellini.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

The oilers would pick Shawn Belle. Or trade down from Richards to pick Shawn Belle and Jeff Tambellini.

Naw knowing how incompetent the Oilers are. If they were in that situation they'd probably trade down from Parise to draft Marc-Antoine Pouliot and some other coke machine or something... oh wait.

 

[Cawz]

No measurable loss?
They gave up a winger who just scored 28 goals on a horrible team for a pick that will likely be in the last handful of the first round. Even if EVERYTHING goes their way, the player they pick will be unlikely to be as good as Perron and could easily take 5-8 years to be a solid player.

They gave up a struggling player who was a 10th overall pick + a VERY high 2nd rounder for a player in what was seen as a "steal" of a trade by many. At the very least an excellent trade. They then see Perron's value go up as he scores a career high in goals. How do you manage to then trade that player for a pick barely better than the one you gave up (possibly in a better year though), and a meh 4th liner.

How will this team ever move forward? They manage to turn even their victories into defeat.

His value wasnt up this year though. The time to trade him (value wise) would have been last year. This year his stats were down. Next year his contract would have been ready to expire (not sure if he would be a pending UFA or would have just needed to be re-upped or what).

The problem is that no player ever seems to be traded from the Oilers when their value is highest. They never sell high. Then again, the pitchforks would likely be brought out by the fans if they ever did.

 

[davidsitar]

Perron wasn't producing here because we anchored him with Arcobello and Draisaitl the entire year.

Maybe instead of giving up on him we should've given him a capable offensive centre to work with. It's no coincidence that the rest of the wingers have started to play better since we added Roy to the team. I would have liked to see what Perron could do with Roy before trading him for futures and spare parts.

This. Not only that he started the season a bit behind the game due to his hip injury in the summer. It was a pointless trade we should have picked up Roy and seen what Perron could do. If anything his value would be higher near the trade deadline once he started producing like we all know he is capable of.

 

[The Nuge]

The oilers would pick Shawn Belle. Or trade down from Richards to pick Shawn Belle and Jeff Tambellini.

Nah. They won't make that mistake again. They'd just take Belle

 

[Ergot]

I'm watching the Penguins-Hawks game and just saw Perron somehow flub a beautiful, 1/100 empty net scoring chance. Maybe some of that Oiler luck has followed him. Arco has an assist though.

Edit: And by 1/100 I mean that only 1 out of every 100 chances are that good.

 

[LTIR]

Pouliot is playing with a former 86pt NHL Center.

Perron was playing with the pretend NHL Center you're so crazy about.

One isn't like the other.

Perron would be around ppg here with a quality Center. Even Gagner helped him to 28goals.

So Perron is more talented than Hall, Eberle Yak or Nuge? Why arent any of these scoring at ppg? i can counter that with putting Arco with Crosby and he will be a ppg player like Perron in PIT..

 

[Replacement*]

So Perron is more talented than Hall, Eberle Yak or Nuge? Why arent any of these scoring at ppg? i can counter that with putting Arco with Crosby and he will be a ppg player like Perron in PIT..

Perron has a more fully developed NHL game. Yeah. The youngsters have been too busy moping half the time to grow their game much beyond what they brought here.

Perron had 4 pts less than first line players here when he left. Perrron was playing with NON NHL Center Arcobello. Its amazing really that Perron managed that degree of production playing with the scrub.

 

[Samus44]

I'm not crazy about the deal from the perspective we lost Perron in a trade for futures and a depth forward but in fairness it seems to me a lot of blockbuster deals at the draft invlove mid-late 1st round picks. Whenever a guy like say Brent Burns gets moved it seems to be picks like that that are amongst the main assets going the other way.

In seeing you post Replacment i think your dissatisfaction with Klinkhammer seems to steem alot from what we gave up in Perron. Klinkhammer isn't nearly as marginal as you say, the reality is he had some value in getting dealt twice. For all we know the Pens weren't crazy about giving him up and Edmonton wanted him. We do know there's a strong possibility that for Phoenix the low level asset in Samuelsson had more value than almost any other comparable player being offered, Klinkhammer brought value back for them. I also think it's pretty out there that in the same paragraph you can insinuate he's a marginal forward and yet blame him for Phoenix's incompetence 20 games in, yet they've gotten worse/are just as bad since he left. He's a marginal 4th liner, how in the world can he be the guy dragging the Coyotes down in your estimation? Let's be honest Phoenix was a team that was overachieving for a long time, this season Smith hasn't played nearly as well the youth they brought in hasn't done a good enough job replacing vets. It's pretty obvious why Phoenix has been on a bit of a downturn here and Klinkhammer has got nothing to do with that.

 

[Mr Positive]

"we're so deep with wingers" and we've replaced a potential allstar NHLer with AHL fill.

I can't reconcile that.

For a 2nd line winger Perron certainly produced during his Edmonton run. We should be lucky to get that level of production from anybody.


NOBODY produces with an AHL center named Arcobello.

Theres a theme there.

It's obviously true that Perron is a better winger than the ones I mentioned, ie Pouliot, Purcell, Yakupov, and of course Klinkhammer as well. It's also true that the best teams concentrate skill, and so having 3 decent wingers is not as good as one great one.

So ultimately, I definitely agree that keeping Perron would have benefitted the team in the short term, and our team could use some short term help to build confidence. I'm definitely not someone who would say that trading Perron was worth it to help our draft position.

I'm just saying that if we were going to pull resources out of any position on the team, it was going to be on the wings. Trading Perron will save us a lot of cap space two seasons from now, cap space we can use to sign a player in position we don't have depth in. The winger depth we have doesn't fully replace Perron, but it limits the damage. We also preserve value by getting a 1st rounder, and the danger of Perron leaving for nothing was definitely there.

 

[rboomercat90]

Agreed. My point was not about that at all really. I'd love to have Perron here instead of Fraser, anyone in their right mind would.

I was simply stating a couple of facts which are important to me. 1) perron is not here anymore; 2) we are playing better hockey now than in a long time (imo) and 3) the way in which we lost perron was odd.

I don't really know what was wrong with my post...

Glad you posted this to clarify what you meant. The post I responded to the other day did make it look like you were inferring Perron was a big part of what was wrong with the Oilers and I couldn't possibly disagree with that sentiment more than I do. I get tired of reading people slagging players after they've left the team. Perron deserved it less than most do. I see this trade as nothing more than a salary dump to help Mactavish correct some of his expensive mistakes. To see people defend it by ripping the player irks me. Glad to know you don't really feel that way.