Confirmed with Link: [EDM/PIT] Perron to Pens for 1st Rounder 2015 and Rob Klinkhammer: Part 2

[AJGass4]

Why bother talking about this, he's gone and I hope he does well.

 

[oilersrule14]

Moving Perron was nothing more than a salary dump and the return he got on the deal proves it. Go ahead and knock Peron if it makes you feel better though.

Funny as hell that guys like you were falling over yourselves after the trade saying it was "obvious" that he wanted out. Now that we're finding out he didn't your story starts changing into him being a cancer.

Sorry, I must have missed this, how do we know he didn't ask out? He denied it?

 

[Samus44]

Sorry, I must have missed this, how do we know he didn't ask out? He denied it?

How can you just assume he wanted out? The guy did talk about being emotionally invested and wanting to help turn it around. All you can do is take it at face value.

 

[Beerfish]

Why bother talking about this, he's gone and I hope he does well.

You sound like a member of the Edmonton Oilers front office structure.

You must talk about this and all moves the team makes. This is the only way you can judge them properly. The Oilers would be more than pleased if you totally forgot and never discussed any of their moves because most of them stink. (This one stinks as much as any imo but others disagree.)

 

[LTIR]

Perron tidbits:
"I feel like I’m part of this team from the first day I came in, where in Edmonton in the summer it probably took me two, three weeks before I stopped saying 'we' talking about the Blues and now I already feel like I’m part of the group"

"I was extremely excited to join [Pittsburgh], it’s not like you gave up on the other one when you were there. I still was giving 100-percent every single night, every single day trying to get the team out of it. It certainly was draining. At times I felt like I think I could have maybe more of a role somewhere else and that’s what I got so far here and hopefully I take advantage of it."

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...-142014039.html;_ylt=AwrSyCMH479Ucn4AgdFNbK5_

 

[Replacement*]

Great for Perron that he is scoring, bad for PIT that they have gone from 4th to 9th in the league in the time he has been there.

I know it is not his fault, I know he is a great player/scorer etc etc. But since he left we are winning more. That is a fact and that is what we should care about. I always liked Perron and wish him all the best, but I don't really care that much since he is not an Oiler anymore...

I also still find it odd that after firing Eakins and McT/Nelson were getting a feel for the locker room, it took them about 1/2 a second to kick him out the door for a late first rounder and a contract.

Perron being gone has nothing to do with why we are winning. Coaching is the most clear and simple attribution at this point. In fact we're missing a depth player and Perron would of course be a better winger option than someone like Fraser or Klinkhammer.

 

[Samus44]

Reasonable post. Yep. My concern as mentioned is Gordon Hendricks could be gold with the right linemate. Could you imagine having a healthy Pisani around now?

Klink is too much of a free agent and I find out of position more. He's chasing hits and forechecks instead of making reads out there. On a checking line particularly a player needs to know when to peel back and get back in NZ. The line right now are giving up too many chances and even odd man breaks with Klink there.

Doesn't much matter this year but I don't want status quo next. This could be an excellent checking line playing huge minutes. 3rd line on most teams.

He's a LW, he doesn't have huge defensive responsibility. From what i've seen he doesn't blow the zone early and he brings backpressure whenever he's the high forward. Not only that the guy can win battles, that's a big part of defensive ability. Unless a guy is a turnover machine, doesn't understand backchecking/backpressure, can't play a simple zone defense, or win the battles then it's really quite hard for a winger to make a dramatic impact on the game defensively in a negative light.

Klinkhammer has to be able to play hard nosed N-S hockey more than anything else, and that's what he's done. If you're the first forward in, the coach wants you to finish your check as you take your man defensively by doing so. Maybe you think as the second forward in he's committing too much, but if Hendricks is laying the body too it's probable that he's taken his man out of the play as well. He's a role player, so yeah he's flawed and hockey IQ may be an area of concern but he's also executing the task being asked of him and his role is so defined and simple that hockey IQ shouldn't be that much of an issue. Creativity with his hands is i'd suggest Klinkhammer's real falling, not an issue with hockey IQ.

Hendricks and Gordon just want to grind, every player at the NHL level that isn't a skill player knows how to cycle. With size and speed like his he shouldn't have a problem engaging himself in the play and winning the majority of the battles he's in. He made a Dave Tippet coached team as a defensive winger, so i think one could probably consider that quite a bit of a tell on a players defensive IQ.

 

[Replacement*]

He's a LW, he doesn't have huge defensive responsibility. From what i've seen he doesn't blow the zone early and he brings backpressure whenever he's the high forward. Not only that the guy can win battles, that's a big part of defensive ability. Unless a guy is a turnover machine, doesn't understand backchecking/backpressure, can't play a simple zone defense, or win the battles then it's really quite hard for a winger to make a dramatic impact on the game defensively in a negative light.

Klinkhammer has to be able to play hard nosed N-S hockey more than anything else, and that's what he's done. If you're the first forward in, the coach wants you to finish your check as you take your man defensively by doing so. Maybe you think as the second forward in he's committing too much, but if Hendricks is laying the body too it's probable that he's taken his man out of the play as well. He's a role player, so yeah he's flawed and hockey IQ may be an area of concern but he's also executing the task being asked of him and his role is so defined and simple that hockey IQ shouldn't be that much of an issue. Creativity with his hands is i'd suggest Klinkhammer's real falling, not an issue with hockey IQ.

Hendricks and Gordon just want to grind, every player at the NHL level that isn't a skill player knows how to cycle. With size and speed like his he shouldn't have a problem engaging himself in the play and winning the majority of the battles he's in. He made a Dave Tippet coached team as a defensive winger, so i think one could probably consider that quite a bit of a tell on a players defensive IQ.

As much as I like Tippet Klink played a defensive role on a very bad Yotes team that was suddenly having trouble defensively and Klink was sent packing eventually.

Logically speaking one could argue both pts. Could just as easily be stated that the time in the desert is why you wouldn't use Klink defensively. Lets be clear here, he was in that role on either team due to an apparent lack of better options.

 

[Throttlehead]

As much as I like Tippet Klink played a defensive role on a very bad Yotes team that was suddenly having trouble defensively and Klink was sent packing eventually.

Logically speaking one could argue both pts. Could just as easily be stated that the time in the desert is why you wouldn't use Klink defensively. Lets be clear here, he was in that role on either team due to an apparent lack of better options.

In three years with the Coyotes, Klinkhammer had the second best +/- on the team in year one which he played 22 games and had 11 points, the next year playing 72 games he had the best +/- on the team, in his third year with the Coyotes he only played 19 games and AGAIN he had the best +/- on the team. Even when he was in Portland on the AHL team he had the best +/- on the team. I'm not sure anyone could say his defensive play was or is the problem.

Whats clear is he excelled in that role.

 

[Replacement*]

In three years with the Coyotes, Klinkhammer had the second best +/- on the team tin year one which he played 22 games and had 11 points, the next year playing 72 games he had the best +/- on the team, in his third year with the Coyotes he only played 19 games and AGAIN he had the best +/- on the team. Even when he was in Portland on the AHL team he had the best +/- on the team. I'm not sure anyone could say his defensive play was or is the problem.

Whats clear is he excelled in that role.

You're making all those conclusions solely on the basis of +/-?


The player I'm watching isn't particularly good at making drop back reads and has been caught too high several times thus not contributing to numbers back when the other team has the puck.
The guy also have no puck possession skills. Can't take or make a pass at NHL pace meaning that a lot of the time he's on the ice he's contributing to this team not having the puck.

 

[Throttlehead]

You're making all those conclusions solely on the basis of +/-?


The player I'm watching isn't particularly good at making drop back reads and has been caught too high several times thus not contributing to numbers back when the other team has the puck.
The guy also have no puck possession skills. Can't take or make a pass at NHL pace meaning that a lot of the time he's on the ice he's contributing to this team not having the puck.

Well gee, a 4th line player with good speed, hits more than anyone on the team, reliable defensively, shouldn't be tolerated on our awesome defensive team.

He's not Sidney Crosby and wasn't signed to be like him.

 

[Replacement*]

Well gee, a 4th line player with good speed, hits more than anyone on the team, reliable defensively, shouldn't be tolerated on our awesome defensive team.

He's not Sidney Crosby and wasn't signed to be like him.

He isn't even a legit or reliable defensive forward. Which is more what I was talking about. nor is he the least bit of value as two previous teams demonstrated with him playing on his 3rd team in half a season. HIs hits as covered are unsustainable. He'll settle back into a 2-3hits/night regimen where you barely notice him.

This guy is going to suck the team to signing him for two year contract instead of looking for better.

(Looks forward to the reply of "he's not the problem on this hockey club")

 

[Samus44]

As much as I like Tippet Klink played a defensive role on a very bad Yotes team that was suddenly having trouble defensively and Klink was sent packing eventually.

Logically speaking one could argue both pts. Could just as easily be stated that the time in the desert is why you wouldn't use Klink defensively. Lets be clear here, he was in that role on either team due to an apparent lack of better options.

They struggled last year and the year before defensively? Because he played in both those seasons too. He played 19 games on a struggling Arizona team and was probably shipped out to shake things up more than anything, also lets not forget Arizona did get a player in return. Samuelsson is an asset for them having Henrik bringing his brother along and a decent young defenseman who's played some games for them. Pretty unreasonable IMO to just assume he wasn't getting it done.

 

[Replacement*]

They struggled last year and the year before defensively? Because he played in both those seasons too. He played 19 games on a struggling Arizona team and was probably shipped out to shake things up more than anything, also lets not forget Arizona did get a player in return. Samuelsson is an asset for them having Henrik bringing his brother along and a decent young defenseman who's played some games for them. Pretty unreasonable IMO to just assume he wasn't getting it done.

It was a reply to points made to the effect that it was a Tippet team and Klink played a defensive role. You were conflagrating the two to suggest it meant something. What it meant is a team that has been perennially cheap, hasn't been getting Tippett the player help he needs, and a team that went from being a playoff team to a very poor team. During the time that Klink played there.

Neither is causative, at best its associated.

So neither your premise, or mine, means anything.

 

[Throttlehead]

He isn't even a legit or reliable defensive forward. Which is more what I was talking about. nor is he the least bit of value as two previous teams demonstrated with him playing on his 3rd team in half a season. HIs hits as covered are unsustainable. He'll settle back into a 2-3hits/night regimen where you barely notice him.

This guy is going to suck the team to signing him for two year contract instead of looking for better.

(Looks forward to the reply of "he's not the problem on this hockey club")

Don't let facts get in your way.

I just showed you his +/- which you chose not to let sink in, its not the be all end all stat, but it HAS to be taken into account when its a relative stat compared to all his teammates on the same team. The guy with the best +/- is NOT POOR defensively. I show you defensive stats, and you reply with "he's not a legit defensive forward". I don't know how to show it to you more simply.

Take your bias blinders off and it will all become clear.

 

[Replacement*]

Don't let facts get in your way.

I just showed you his +/- which you chose not to let sink in, its not the be all end all stat, but it HAS to be taken into account when its a relative stat compared to all his teammates on the same team. The guy with the best +/- is NOT POOR defensively. I show you defensive stats, and you reply with "he's not a legit defensive forward". I don't know how to show it to you more simply.

Take your bias blinders off and it will all become clear.

+/- is a very rudimentary stat. Which basically opened the door to all the advanced stats we see today that evaluate such things as quality of team mate, quality of competition, etc.

+/- is also of course a unit stat.

Phoenix has two D that out of this world good as compared to ANY Edmonton defender. For all we know Klink got some good looks with good D pairings. For sure he did on pk.

Next, Phoenix used to have a pretty good PK. I don't know that any reasonable opinion has it as "its because of Klinkhammer" or that he was even anything in that other than being along for the ride.

Does he look good defensively to you?

Do you note that theres been games where Gordon is winning 80% of faceoffs which has helped out a lot but which has limited us seeing as many sets where Klink is on in ownzone without us winning the faceoff?

Right now Klink is with two players really good at their roles. He had good linemate looks in Arizona as well.

He's a fill player. Its not even known yet if he fills reasonably well.

 

[Throttlehead]

+/- is a very rudimentary stat. Which basically opened the door to all the advanced stats we see today that evaluate such things as quality of team mate, quality of competition, etc.

+/- is also of course a unit stat.

Phoenix has two D that out of this world good as compared to ANY Edmonton defender. For all we know Klink got some good looks with good D pairings. For sure he did on pk.

Next, Phoenix used to have a pretty good PK. I don't know that any reasonable opinion has it as "its because of Klinkhammer" or that he was even anything in that other than being along for the ride.

Does he look good defensively to you?

Do you note that theres been games where Gordon is winning 80% of faceoffs which has helped out a lot but which has limited us seeing as many sets where Klink is on in ownzone without us winning the faceoff?

Right now Klink is with two players really good at their roles. He had good linemate looks in Arizona as well.

He's a fill player. Its not even known yet if he fills reasonably well.

I'm done feeding the trolls.

You're right!

 

[Replacement*]

I'm done feeding the trolls.

You're right!

Inappropriate comment. Its a player discussion and comments have to this point been reasonably made. Theres nothing wrong with the points I made.

 

[OilerTyler]

+/- has never been a good stat to represent a player's defensive ability. Replacement is right.

In 2012 Horcoff was last on the team and Gagner was first.

 

[Approved Variety]

Inappropriate comment. Its a player discussion and comments have to this point been reasonably made. Theres nothing wrong with the points I made.

You're intimating that he's not good enough to be considered a real NHL player. It's almost like someone came in and said, "Klink is the next Clutterbuck!" And you felt the need to exaggerate the exact opposite direction. Ignore the few idiots, and don't become one.

 

[Samus44]

It was a reply to points made to the effect that it was a Tippet team and Klink played a defensive role. You were conflagrating the two to suggest it meant something. What it meant is a team that has been perennially cheap, hasn't been getting Tippett the player help he needs, and a team that went from being a playoff team to a very poor team. During the time that Klink played there.

Neither is causative, at best its associated.

So neither your premise, or mine, means anything.

Actually you are the one suggesting things contrary to objective evidence and most observations, i'm reinforcing the current reality of Klinkhammer being an NHL player who's been effective. Klinkhammer has traditionally had quality possesion stats iitc, had enough value to be acquired in two trades and not just waived, has put up respectable offensive totals as a pro, has not been outscored at even strength, hits as he's been asked to and yet you still insist he's not a useful player. You're narritive doesn't match the current realities. My whole argument was far from he was on a Tippet coached team, but i do think it's a reasonable tell even if it isn't definitive. He's a role player so of course he has his flaws, but he's honest to god filling a role we can use and has done so on competent teams putting up competent results over a reasonable amount of time.

 

[Approved Variety]

For under a million, hard to ask for more from Klink. We don't need a "golden" fourth line. That is finally a smart line that isn't breaking the bank, and is doing everything we ask.

I'd rather pay Klink $850k to do what he does each night, than Dustin Brown or Kyle Clutterbuck their salaries to do it better, when we need that $ for something a lot more important. And you should too.

 

[Replacement*]

You're intimating that he's not good enough to be considered a real NHL player. It's almost like someone came in and said, "Klink is the next Clutterbuck!" And you felt the need to exaggerate the exact opposite direction. Ignore the few idiots, and don't become one.

Klink is 28yrs old and other that for an org that is desperate to save money and have cheap player fill has not been an NHL player anywhere else for any appreciable time. Had Yotes not reverted to a team that was pulling the plug on icing a competitive lineup Klink would be toiling somewhere in the AHL and unheard of here.

This is a bit role player in a capped league that is only ever in the league due to a team having horrible market conditions or needing low cost fill.

I'm in a thread the context of which is trading a very good player for Klinkhammer and a pick. With people deciding to shine up Klinkhammer.

How am I supposed to reasonably respond? Other than with perfectly reasonable counterpoint which I've done.

 

[Replacement*]

For under a million, hard to ask for more from Klink. We don't need a "golden" fourth line. That is finally a smart line that isn't breaking the bank, and is doing everything we ask.

I'd rather pay Klink $850k to do what he does each night, than Dustin Brown or Kyle Clutterbuck their salaries to do it better, when we need that $ for something a lot more important. And you should too.

if you can't distinguish the value difference of Dustin Brown vs Klinkhammer were sure not to agree on any of this.

 

[Aerchon]

Perron being gone has nothing to do with why we are winning. Coaching is the most clear and simple attribution at this point. In fact we're missing a depth player and Perron would of course be a better winger option than someone like Fraser or Klinkhammer.

This