Proposal: Edm - Car - NYI 3-Way

[GoldiFox]

How many 2nd line wings scored 40 goals last year?

How many 2nd line Wingers spent 75%+ of the season on a line with John Tavares? Other than Bailey whose numbers are also inflated?

Now that JT isn’t feeding Lee beauties it will be interesting to see where his stats end up. Given his career trend of potting 0.5 assists per goal, he could be a 20-30 goal, 30-45 point forward.

 

[LordNeverLose]

This ‘perfect winger for McDavid’ stuff is bunk. He’d put up 80 points cantering two metal folding chairs with sticks tied to them. He doesn’t need the help.

Why even bother paying his wingers over league minimum then? Why don't they trade RNH since it doesn't matter who plays on McDavid's wing?

 

[LordNeverLose]

NYI wins to Edmonton and Carolina’s extreme detriment. Bailey and picks/prospects fills zero needs for the Canes. Edmonton isn’t trading Draisaitl for a 2nd pairing D and a 2nd line W.

Oof. Anders Lee and his 40 goals are 2nd-line material now. Harsh crowd. What are there, like 15 1st-line wingers in the league?

 

[ChaoticOrange]

We give up an All Star participant AND a 40-goal scorer and those are QUANTITY??? How do you say something like that?

And NO ONE claimed McDavid needed the help. We're saying Lee could score EVEN MORE goals playing with McDavid than Tavares!

Holy smoke! Chill out.

RNH was an all star too, that doesn’t have any bearing on either his value or Bailey’s.

Edmonton gives up Draisaitl+ for a winger - yes, a good one - and a second pairing defenceman with defensive struggles coming off a terrible season.

You’ve crafted a deal where your team comes out ahead and no one else’s does. I’m not saying it’s terrible, but the Isles are the most likely of the three teams to say yes to this. Edmonton and Carolina probably reject it outright.

 

[rent free]

Why even bother paying his wingers over league minimum then? Why don't they trade RNH since it doesn't matter who plays on McDavid's wing?

thats what i though of exactly when chaoticorange posted that message

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

There's been just one true instance of the NHL's version of an S&T in recent memory: Kyle Turris. In that deal, the inclusion of an extension did not motivate Nashville to part with a quality roster player; it was still a 3-for-1 futures deal.

The idea of Lee not only bypassing free agency, or at least a trial run with another team, but also having the acquiring team pay a premium for that, in terms of willingness to make a hockey trade, is a very optimistic view of the potential of the player as an asset.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Why even bother paying his wingers over league minimum then? Why don't they trade RNH since it doesn't matter who plays on McDavid's wing?

Rattie IS getting league minimum. RNH is there because he could be a 70 point player on his wing and we have two better centres than him.

McDavid-Draisaitl in the top six should not be given up lightly.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Just saying, teams that trade away 22 year old studs for older players to fill a need usually regret trading way said 22 year old studs.

 

[Jared Dunn]

Well... yeah. Your team gets the best player in the deal and gives up quantity for quality. If Edmonton was giving up Puljujarvi, McLeod, RNH and St Louis’ choice of Jones or Bear for Tarasenko and Dunn I wouldn’t think we were doing too bad either.

Yeah you give up a bunch of stuff, but your team today is better off. I don’t think Edmonton or Carolina can say the same.

This ‘perfect winger for McDavid’ stuff is bunk. He’d put up 80 points cantering two metal folding chairs with sticks tied to them. He doesn’t need the help.

Just because they aren't as good as Draisaitl does not make Lee and Bailey quantity pieces... Lee is a first liner without a doubt, Bailey is a bit of a risk but if he stays somewhere in the range of the last two years he is as well.

 

[rent free]

There's been just one true instance of the NHL's version of an S&T in recent memory: Kyle Turris. In that deal, the inclusion of an extension did not motivate Nashville to part with a quality roster player; it was still a 3-for-1 futures deal.

The idea of Lee not only bypassing free agency, or at least a trial run with another team, but also having the acquiring team pay a premium for that, in terms of willingness to make a hockey trade, is a very optimistic view of the potential of the player as an asset.

that was a T&S, not an S&T

 

[ChaoticOrange]

How is EDM the clear winner here? They give up the best player who is only 22 years old and plays a premium position for a 26 year old defenseman who isn't great defensively and is a UFA in 2 years; and a soon to be 29 year old winger who will cost a FORTUNE to sign and will require a very long term deal when he does sign.

This would come back to bite Chia so hard that it would be the brunt of jokes on HF years down the road.

Completely agreed. I think Carolina does pretty well though they might not love the main piece coming back but the Islanders can’t complain at all since they walk out with Draisaitl.

 

[LordNeverLose]

RNH is there because he could be a 70 point player on his wing and we have two better centres than him.

But you just said it doesn't matter who McDavid's wingers are? Lee would probably break 40 goals every year on McDavid's wing, but that holds no value because McD's wingers don't matter, but RNH matters because he does well on his wing?

Surely you see the hole in your logic here.

 

[LordNeverLose]

that was a T&S, not an S&T

Effectively the same thing

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Just because they aren't as good as Draisaitl does not make Lee and Bailey quantity pieces... Lee is a first liner without a doubt, Bailey is a bit of a risk but if he stays somewhere in the range of the last two years he is as well.

Nothing Edmonton is giving up in my Blues comparable deal is a quantity piece, yet the Blues still get screwed. Edmonton kind of feels similar here.

No one is saying the Islanders aren’t giving up good pieces... they just walk out with a 22 year old 1C with most of their important pieces intact. I don’t see Lee as having that kind of value.

You’re giving up Bailey, but not to us. NYI is effectively trading Lee signed to ??? contract straight up for Draisaitl as far as it applies to us. What you do with Carolina is your own business.

If you wanted to talk something around Lee and RNH I’m sure Edmonton would listen but Draisaitl is a long way off the table.

 

[rent free]

Effectively the same thing

doesn't make his statement any more correct.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

But you just said it doesn't matter who McDavid's wingers are? Lee would probably break 40 goals every year on McDavid's wing, but that holds no value because McD's wingers don't matter, but RNH matters because he does well on his wing?

Surely you see the hole in your logic here.

Not overly no. RNH is there for RNH’s benefit and to try to create two strong scoring lines to overwhelm 2nd tier competition.

RNH is good C in his own right but he has a chance to hit career highs across the board with McDavid, and Draisaitl on his own line against 2nd tier competition could be a nightmare for other teams.

McDavid generates offense on his own, putting literally all of our offensive eggs in a Lee-McDavid duo is foolish in the extreme. The whole reason Draisaitl is on his own line now is because to win games in the league today you need multiple drivers, not one good line and a pile of meh.

‘Lee would probably do X’ is not anywhere near convincing enough to drop Draisaitl for. Good teams are built on centre depth. We tried the building through a good winger thing before and it’s gone about as well as it’s gone in NYI.

 

[ACC1224]

Okay one respondent says the Hurricanes get screwed and one says the Isles get screwed . . . I might be on to something good!

"onto something good" or "on something good"?

 

[LordNeverLose]

Not overly no. RNH is there for RNH’s benefit and to try to create two strong scoring lines to overwhelm 2nd tier competition.

RNH is good C in his own right but he has a chance to hit career highs across the board with McDavid, and Draisaitl on his own line against 2nd tier competition could be a nightmare for other teams.

McDavid generates offense on his own, putting literally all of our offensive eggs in a Lee-McDavid duo is foolish in the extreme. The whole reason Draisaitl is on his own line now is because to win games in the league today you need multiple drivers, not one good line and a pile of meh.

‘Lee would probably do X’ is not anywhere near convincing enough to drop Draisaitl for. Good teams are built on centre depth. We tried the building through a good winger thing before and it’s gone about as well as it’s gone in NYI.

In this trade you put RNH at 2C to replace Drai and Lee at 1LW to replace RNH. In return you get back a top4 RHD.

Do you not think RNH can center a good top6 scoring line? That's the impression I'm getting from what you're saying.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

that was a T&S, not an S&T

If you want to be technical about it, I guess.

It doesn't effect my point, though.

 

[seabass45]

You can't assume sign-and-trades, it's too rare and here it just ends up being used to prop up a UFA's value.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

In this trade you put RNH at 2C to replace Drai and Lee at 1LW to replace RNH. In return you get back a top4 RHD.

Do you not think RNH can center a good top6 scoring line? That's the impression I'm getting from what you're saying.

The impression you should be getting is that Draisaitl is better than RNH and Chaotic doesn’t want to give up a 22 year old 1C who hasn’t scratched the surface of his potential for a 28 year old 1LW with an uncertain contract coming off a career year when his previous high was 52 points and Justin Faulk who I do not like at all as a player.

Lee is ‘signed’ in OP, but you can’t sign a guy two years out from UFA so even if he promises up and down he’d be here long term, we’d have nothing concrete and would be taking that risk as well. Even if you could extend him? To what? For how long? He’s 30 when his deal is over, do we want to extend a guy that age another 6 or 7 years? Draisaitl is a damned good bet to be a better player from 22-29 than Lee is from 28-35.

You’re asking us to do a lot of lineup gymnastics to accommodate a trade we don’t especially want to make in the first place. We ran McDavid and Drai - who is at least as good on the wing as Lee is - with RNH at C for 120 games and a playoff run. Seen it, been there, done that. Now we want to run McDavid with a lesser winger and a stronger centre on his own line.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Isn't Lee a UFA at season's end? so a team could sign him to an extension right now if he wanted to?

Doesn't change the rest of your post though CO, which I agree with.

 

[LordNeverLose]

The impression you should be getting is that Draisaitl is better than RNH and Chaotic doesn’t want to give up a 22 year old 1C who hasn’t scratched the surface of his potential for a 28 year old 1LW with an uncertain contract coming off a career year when his previous high was 52 points and Justin Faulk who I do not like at all as a player.

Lee is ‘signed’ in OP, but you can’t sign a guy two years out from UFA so even if he promises up and down he’d be here long term, we’d have nothing concrete and would be taking that risk as well. Even if you could extend him? To what? For how long? He’s 30 when his deal is over, do we want to extend a guy that age another 6 or 7 years? Draisaitl is a damned good bet to be a better player from 22-29 than Lee is from 28-35.

You’re asking us to do a lot of lineup gymnastics to accommodate a trade we don’t especially want to make in the first place. We ran McDavid and Drai - who is at least as good on the wing as Lee is - with RNH at C for 120 games and a playoff run. Seen it, been there, done that. Now we want to run McDavid with a lesser winger and a stronger centre on his own line.

First of all, Lee is 1 year from UFA so could sign whenever.

If you don't like the value of Drai for Lee and Faulk that's fine. But your defense of that can't be that McDavid's wingers don't matter.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

First of all, Lee is 1 year from UFA so could sign whenever.

If you don't like the value of Drai for Lee and Faulk that's fine. But your defense of that can't be that McDavid's wingers don't matter.

So he is. So OP is just trying to max out Lee’s UFA value then? Makes a lot more sense now. I thought he had an extra year but if he doesn’t there’s even less reason for Edmonton to do this. As mentioned before sign and trades just are not a thing and they’re definitely not a thing when an elite asset is going the other way.

Fine, it’s less ‘don’t matter’ and more ‘we aren’t gifting you Draisaitl for a wing upgrade we don’t especially need who’s also a UFA that you guys are trying to hustle out the door before he walks for nothing like Leaf Pajamas’. Is that better?

McDavid already has a good player on his wing in RNH and those two can carry Rattie to acceptable results. Giving up Draisaitl and a 2nd to make the top line slightly better and to roll the dice on Faulk like drunk gramps at the craps table isn’t a smart plan for a team that needs to win.

 

[LordNeverLose]

So he is. So OP is just trying to max out Lee’s UFA value then? Makes a lot more sense now. I thought he had an extra year but if he doesn’t there’s even less reason for Edmonton to do this. As mentioned before sign and trades just are not a thing and they’re definitely not a thing when an elite asset is going the other way.

Fine, it’s less ‘don’t matter’ and more ‘we aren’t gifting you Draisaitl for a wing upgrade we don’t especially need who’s also a UFA that you guys are trying to hustle out the door before he walks for nothing like Leaf Pajamas’. Is that better?

I think you're missing the point for EDM, which would be to add a top4 RD and PPQB without hurting the offense too bad. If you don't like Faulk, fine just say that.

Also coulda done without the petty insults, especially considering I have no doubts Lee would sign here long-term.