Dysfunction in the desert: Finger-pointing, fear and financial woes roil the Coyotes organization

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Same could apply to Minnesota and Quebec City, no?

Neither market could be classified as a failure, really, especially Minnesota with the Wild's sellout streak.

the question, though with the Stars was, why Dallas? the Wild weren't even a thought back then and then the Moose being there before financial issues forced them to Winnipeg

 

[Fenway]

Historically there is little the NHL can do until players' payroll is missed.

 

[MNNumbers]

the question, though with the Stars was, why Dallas? the Wild weren't even a thought back then and then the Moose being there before financial issues forced them to Winnipeg

I'm not sure what the question "why Dallas" means, in the context here.

But, to answer the question....
Dallas was because Norm Green and his own behavior were destroying the good will between Minnesota fans and the franchise. Met Center in Bloomington was going to need an upgrade to keep up with league averages. And, Dallas gave Green a good deal.

What's hard to understand about this?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I'm not sure what the question "why Dallas" means, in the context here.

But, to answer the question....
Dallas was because Norm Green and his own behavior were destroying the good will between Minnesota fans and the franchise. Met Center in Bloomington was going to need an upgrade to keep up with league averages. And, Dallas gave Green a good deal.

What's hard to understand about this?

yea, but to the point at which that happened.... Minnesota's current team wasn't even an idea, much less reality the Stars could've gone anywhere, which is why did they decide TO go to Dallas....

it's like the adage.... that we've seen before why was Dallas so interested in adding a team outside of the Mavericks.... it's like picking a market and they don't control the revenue because the Mavericks are considered the prime tenant....

we've seen that before elsewhere.

it had nothing to do with the Met Centre, Target Center, or anything in Minnesota, almost the same argument or discussion you have over why did Karmanos leave Connecticut for Greensboro, then Raleigh, and the XL Center remains standing to this day, even though realistically no pro hockey franchise or other pro franchises would consider Hartford except the Rangers

 

[MNNumbers]

yea, but to the point at which that happened.... Minnesota's current team wasn't even an idea, much less reality the Stars could've gone anywhere, which is why did they decide TO go to Dallas....

it's like the adage.... that we've seen before why was Dallas so interested in adding a team outside of the Mavericks.... it's like picking a market and they don't control the revenue because the Mavericks are considered the prime tenant....

we've seen that before elsewhere.

it had nothing to do with the Met Centre, Target Center, or anything in Minnesota, almost the same argument or discussion you have over why did Karmanos leave Connecticut for Greensboro, then Raleigh, and the XL Center remains standing to this day, even though realistically no pro hockey franchise or other pro franchises would consider Hartford except the Rangers

I really don't know what you are saying here. Of course the Wild were not an idea when the North Stars were still in Bloomington.

If you are trying to say that access to a modern arena is a very important thing, I believe that everyone would agree.

I would also suggest the idea that, had North Stars ownership been different, there would have been lots of ideas about negotiating a new arena somewhere. Green and his behavior made that impossible.

 

[Fenway]

Kansas City never had a chance - they started off with 8 games on the road (0-7-1)

​

1974-75 Kansas City Scouts Schedule and Results | Hockey-Reference.com

GP	Date	Opponent	GF	GA	W	L	T	Streak
1	1974-10-09	@	Toronto Maple Leafs	2	6	L		0	1	0	L 1
2	1974-10-12	@	New York Islanders	2	6	L		0	2	0	L 2
3	1974-10-13	@	Philadelphia Flyers	2	3	L		0	3	0	L 3
4	1974-10-18	@	Atlanta Flames	2	4	L		0	4	0	L 4
5	1974-10-19	@	Los Angeles Kings	0	3	L		0	5	0	L 5
6	1974-10-23	@	California Golden Seals	4	4	T		0	5	1	T 1
7	1974-10-25	@	Vancouver Canucks	3	5	L		0	6	1	L 1
8	1974-10-27	@	Boston Bruins	2	8	L		0	7	1	L 2
9	1974-11-02		Chicago Black Hawks	3	4	L		0	8	1	L 3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I really don't know what you are saying here. Of course the Wild were not an idea when the North Stars were still in Bloomington.

If you are trying to say that access to a modern arena is a very important thing, I believe that everyone would agree.

I would also suggest the idea that, had North Stars ownership been different, there would have been lots of ideas about negotiating a new arena somewhere. Green and his behavior made that impossible.

yea, but that's kinda the direction this is leading to:

would Carolina be better where they are now, or still in Hartford waiting on/for the state of Connecticut and its overseers, the CTDRA, to replace the XL Center, not constantly renovating the arena every 20 years or so....

 

[Fatass]

Can anyone explain the accusation the Coyotes took money from the league that was intended for one purpose, but they used to paying bills?

 

[SunDancer]

If he is calling a 53 million dollar revenue loss unacceptable then the only way he can be profitable is when he sells and for something closer to market value. Even if the next US TV deal is around the 750 million figure that's been tossed around, losing the share of the Seattle expansion fee when it expires will pretty much offset it.

The league has already got an additional billion dollar loan to help teams weather the storm and Meruelo still can't pay his bills on time and for the full amount? Can't see what else the league can do here.

The other big question is the 3rd party investigation by the Chicago law firm. The article seems to imply it's the league itself that's doing the investigating. Among other points they are looking at:

• The accuracy of financial reports the organization sent to the league, which reflect team revenues and can potentially impact player salaries and the salary cap.
• The team’s appropriation of monies from the Industry Growth Fund allotment provided by the league, which is given to all 31 teams, “to help fund programs and initiatives aimed at increasing diversity and inclusion in the game, as well as promoting social justice and racial equality,” according to the NHL/NHLPA’s collectively bargained Memorandum of Understanding.

What happens if the NHL finds out Meruelo is misrepresenting HRR or misusing money he receives from the league? Does he get a slap on the hand or something more serious?

 

[Mightygoose]

The other big question is the 3rd party investigation by the Chicago law firm. The article seems to imply it's the league itself that's doing the investigating. Among other points they are looking at:



What happens if the NHL finds out Meruelo is misrepresenting HRR or misusing money he receives from the league? Does he get a slap on the hand or something more serious?

Yeah it's allot of dirt it seems. Circling back to Meruelo using the Seattle expansion money to achieve profitability within 2 years. That tap runs dry in a few months.



At 350 million with noting going to the owners that's 11.7 million per team. Even if the US TV is 750 million. An increase by 550 mil. 50% goes to the players and it gets divided 32 ways now, comes in at 8.6 mil per team so his 'revenue' actually decreases.

Bettman's potentially in a tough spot here. His contract is up summer next year, does he retire and just leave this the next person in line?

 

[TheLegend]

If he is calling a 53 million dollar revenue loss unacceptable then the only way he can be profitable is when he sells and for something closer to market value. Even if the next US TV deal is around the 750 million figure that's been tossed around, losing the share of the Seattle expansion fee when it expires will pretty much offset it.

The league has already got an additional billion dollar loan to help teams weather the storm and Meruelo still can't pay his bills on time and for the full amount? Can't see what else the league can do here.

I don't know.....

If I had a $53 million dollar deficit I'd consider it unacceptable.

I would also consider that the "casual environment" the front office was running in that created said deficit was unacceptable.

SO..... I would probably look at changing the environment. If that means cutting costs and looking at current contracts for ways to trim costs, and installing a more serious business environment (that to some might seem draconian) then it isn't out of the realm, is it?? Employees who get butt hurt because they have to wear business attire instead of team warmup gear have their priorities in the wrong place.

 

[Spydey629]

I don't know.....

If I had a $53 million dollar deficit I'd consider it unacceptable.

I would also consider that the "casual environment" the front office was running in that created said deficit was unacceptable.

SO..... I would probably look at changing the environment. If that means cutting costs and looking at current contracts for ways to trim costs, and installing a more serious business environment (that to some might seem draconian) then it isn't out of the realm, is it?? Employees who get butt hurt because they have to wear business attire instead of team warmup gear have their priorities in the wrong place.

I’ve worked in the front office of a couple different teams, in different sports, as well as a collegiate athletic department — team gear is pretty much the uniform. Business casual, unless you’re “paid” to wear a jacket and tie every day.

That said, I agree with you to a point. Buttoning things down a bit (pun intended), to kick some folks in the rear isn’t the worst idea.

However, using tactics that equate to shaking down vendors and team partners to pay less on legitimate bills incurred is not good business - at any level, but especially not for a professional sports franchise.

 

[TheLegend]

I’ve worked in the front office of a couple different teams, in different sports, as well as a collegiate athletic department — team gear is pretty much the uniform. Business casual, unless you’re “paid” to wear a jacket and tie every day.

That said, I agree with you to a point. Buttoning things down a bit (pun intended), to kick some folks in the rear isn’t the worst idea.

However, using tactics that equate to shaking down vendors and team partners to pay less on legitimate bills incurred is not good business - at any level, but especially not for a professional sports franchise.

Personally speaking.... I've spent 45 years within the same business, in both corporate and local ownership settings. Not afraid to admit I much prefer the local setting. I'm just more inclined to adapt to the environment I'm in than most people are.

But.... "Shaking down" is a subjective term.

Vendors have the choice of not doing business with them. There's nothing (at least publicly yet) to indicate that the Coyotes have lost vendors because they were "shaken down". And the Coyotes are still announcing new corporate partners. We don't have any specifics in how these vendors were "shaken down". If they're ending up taking a loss because of it I would be concerned but at the moment it's all "he said/she said"

 

[golfortennis]

It is well documented that when the Suns were planning the new arena Jerry Colangelo called the NHL asking if Phoenix was on the NHL radar and John Ziegler told him it will never happen so the arena was not designed for the NHL.

Sportschannel deal, expansion teams chosen by those not balking at fee, this.... how on earth did the NHL not get bigger and bigger with management like this?

 

[Ernie]

Can anyone explain the accusation the Coyotes took money from the league that was intended for one purpose, but they used to paying bills?

The league gives money to teams to promote the sport. These funds should not be used for operating expenses.

 

[Fatass]

The league gives money to teams to promote the sport. These funds should not be used for operating expenses.

Thanks. Is that maybe why Sullivan is fired so abruptly? Maybe he was responsible for that?

 

[Fatass]

The other big question is the 3rd party investigation by the Chicago law firm. The article seems to imply it's the league itself that's doing the investigating. Among other points they are looking at:



What happens if the NHL finds out Meruelo is misrepresenting HRR or misusing money he receives from the league? Does he get a slap on the hand or something more serious?

Can the league force an owner to sell if there are no buyers?

 

[Spydey629]

Personally speaking.... I've spent 45 years within the same business, in both corporate and local ownership settings. Not afraid to admit I much prefer the local setting. I'm just more inclined to adapt to the environment I'm in than most people are.

But.... "Shaking down" is a subjective term.

Vendors have the choice of not doing business with them. There's nothing (at least publicly yet) to indicate that the Coyotes have lost vendors because they were "shaken down". And the Coyotes are still announcing new corporate partners. We don't have any specifics in how these vendors were "shaken down". If they're ending up taking a loss because of it I would be concerned but at the moment it's all "he said/she said"

Fair point. I just can't fathom doing business like that on an existing invoice. I get negotiating the next round of soda deliveries, sticks, or random services, but not the ones the new management inherited.

 

[Ernie]

Thanks. Is that maybe why Sullivan is fired so abruptly? Maybe he was responsible for that?

This would be on the business side of things, not hockey ops.

 

[Llama19]

 

[Mightygoose]

Though Shannon says that it's his opinion, he is pretty connected with the league office and was the first one to mention that Meruelo was going to buy the team, if the team really has been for sale for 6 months no wonder why he hasn't signed a long term lease.

Reality is no one is going to sign long term in Glendale. He mentions Houston and Portland has possible places for a team... again his opinion.

Let's see how this plays out

 

[TheLegend]

Though Shannon says that it's his opinion, he is pretty connected with the league office and was the first one to mention that Meruelo was going to buy the team, if the team really has been for sale for 6 months no wonder why he hasn't signed a long term lease.

Reality is no one is going to sign long term in Glendale. He mentions Houston and Portland has possible places for a team... again his opinion.

Let's see how this plays out

As you said it's his "opinion".

It was also his opinion that the Coyotes aren't going to move and Houston would have a team within the next 5 years or so, and he didn't refer to that as a relocation scenario.

 

[Mightygoose]

As you said it's his "opinion".

It was also his opinion that the Coyotes aren't going to move and Houston would have a team within the next 5 years or so, and he didn't refer to that as a relocation scenario.

Very true and time will tell if there is fire to any of this smoke.

At the same time why would Shannon even bring his opinion up in the first place? Easier to say he's committed to the franchise/market etc....in addition to his learning curve of owning a sports team.

He seemed to validate the Strang article but that could be support within the media community.

 

[MNNumbers]

I listened to the Shannon piece. I have a few questions:

1- If he expects Houston to be in the league in 5 years, how does the arena situation there sort itself out? That's a big obstacle

2- If instead Portland is a place for a team, then how does ownership there work out, when, even after Paul Allen's death, there still isn't any reason to think that a hockey team in Moda Center is coming any time soon?

Given that there are no answers to these questions forthcoming, please tell me why I am supposed to think there is anything significant at all about Shannon's opinion?

 

[Mightygoose]

I listened to the Shannon piece. I have a few questions:

1- If he expects Houston to be in the league in 5 years, how does the arena situation there sort itself out? That's a big obstacle

2- If instead Portland is a place for a team, then how does ownership there work out, when, even after Paul Allen's death, there still isn't any reason to think that a hockey team in Moda Center is coming any time soon?

Given that there are no answers to these questions forthcoming, please tell me why I am supposed to think there is anything significant at all about Shannon's opinion?

The part of the non answers lie with the host not asking the follow up questions, including why does he think the team has been for sale for the past 6 months.

Now the team being for sale is far from a definitive thing but Mr. Shannon said it....without being asked..... for a reason and with him so tight with the league office I can't see why he would want to start a rumour.

The possibility shouldn't be dismissed either.