Dysfunction in the desert: Finger-pointing, fear and financial woes roil the Coyotes organization

[MNNumbers]

I believe, and it's not written in stone anywhere, that if the current division stay in place for the 21-22 season, Arizona (which was to move to the Central when Seattle joins) will play out of Quebec to keep all the divisions at 8 teams. Otherwise, The Central will have 9 teams, and the North will have 7.

If you read between the lines with Brian Mulroney's comments he believes Quebec will eventually get a team, but not during the current (Vegas) expansion. He is adamant it will happen soon. Brian and Gary have a close relationship and I'm sure deferring Quebec's bid was for emergency situations..........like this would be.

I'm not saying it will happen, but it could be probable. Especially if the border remains closed.

Are you suggesting a permanent relocation to Quebec, or a single year only situation?

 

[Mightygoose]

Coyotes 'exploring' legal action after deep dive into club's alleged business practices

What a trainwreck.

It'll be fun to watch this play out. Did she say anything libelous?

I hope Meruelo's legal team has him pay their fees upfront. More likely he should be told this is not worth their time and Meruelo's money....which he seems short on these days

 

[Slashers98]

Are you suggesting a permanent relocation to Quebec, or a single year only situation?

Probably permanent, but there is no solid owner to buy them right now. Péladeau is bleeding money as his propagandist media need subsidy after subsidy to survive. He failed to buy Air Transat and everybody hates him now.

 

[Ciao]

I believe, and it's not written in stone anywhere, that if the current division stay in place for the 21-22 season, Arizona (which was to move to the Central when Seattle joins) will play out of Quebec to keep all the divisions at 8 teams. Otherwise, The Central will have 9 teams, and the North will have 7.

If you read between the lines with Brian Mulroney's comments he believes Quebec will eventually get a team, but not during the current (Vegas) expansion. He is adamant it will happen soon. Brian and Gary have a close relationship and I'm sure deferring Quebec's bid was for emergency situations..........like this would be.

I'm not saying it will happen, but it could be probable. Especially if the border remains closed.

No harm in dreaming, I guess, no matter how detached from reality the dream is

 

[MNNumbers]

You

Probably permanent, but there is no solid owner to buy them right now. Péladeau is bleeding money as his propagandist media need subsidy after subsidy to survive. He failed to buy Air Transat and everybody hates him now.

You see this as a possibility,too?

I just can't see a relocation forced from the COVID circumstances.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Preventative Maintenance

I hung this in the main board thread. Figured I'd better put it in this thread as well.

Folks, let's keep the relocation speculation out of the current conversation. Keep it focused on the article and to the alleged items and accusations only. I know that's hard for many of you, but it hasn't reached to a point where relocation is a necessity.

Stay in the sandbox.

Thank you

 

[Slashers98]

You


You see this as a possibility,too?

I just can't see a relocation forced from the COVID circumstances.

Let's not talk about relocation because the moderators don't like it...

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Was that Munson article behind a paywall?

Yes, it was since it was in Sports Illustrated which was a magazine you had to buy to read.

"That's how we did it, before the internet"

 

[Major4Boarding]

Let's not talk about relocation because the moderators don't like it...

Relocation is always a possibility with this franchise. No one can dismiss that. But do you know how many check boxes have to be checked off before it even got to that point? How many f***ing years have many of you been in this forum and yet we're still here? Adversity always seems to be a constant companion with this franchise. I get it. The bar keeps getting lower, so low that you have to keep digging underground just to get under the current sub-level where that bar is.

The ask was to keep it in the sandbox. Meaning, the article. This. Thread.

Many of you have been in this forum for 10+ years awaiting the relocation of the Coyotes. You'd think that you'd be conditioned enough by now to keep in a holding pattern just a bit longer or long enough to discuss the actual goddamn topic for now.

 

[Fatass]

View attachment 397292

Relocation is always a possibility with this franchise. No one can dismiss that. But do you know how many check boxes have to be checked off before it even got to that point? How many f***ing years have many of you been in this forum and yet we're still here? Adversity always seems to be a constant companion with this franchise. I get it. The bar keeps getting lower, so low that you have to keep digging underground just to get under the current sub-level where that bar is.

The ask was to keep it in the sandbox. Meaning, the article. This. Thread.

Many of you have been in this forum for 10+ years awaiting the relocation of the Coyotes. You'd think that you'd be conditioned enough by now to keep in a holding pattern just a bit longer or long enough to discuss the actual goddamn topic for now.

My assumption is you’re a Coyotes’ fan, and the current whirlwind of crap about the team is adding to years of frustration. In Van we had Brian Burke, back in the late 90’s, state to a reporter it takes a 25 cent phone call to have the team moved. (Or something pretty much like that). We got a new owner, and the team got better too. Hopefully the Coyotes continue to win, like their recent play indicates, and this last load of swirling crap will blow away. A winning team is what’s needed, and (maybe?) a new owner.

 

[MNNumbers]

Before anything else, with respect to the article, I think it's completely fair to say that....

The NHL will have to consider, even if they dismiss everything quickly, they will have to at least look at the situation. (They have been looking at the situation in Ottawa as well, of course).

At the very worst, there will be a conversation between Bettman and Mereulo. That would only be if the NHL decides that something about the approach needs to change.

Even if the very worst happened, I would see another ownership change. But, that's all. The problem here, if there is a problem, is again ownership. Not franchise. Not market. Nothing else.

 

[Mightygoose]

My assumption is you’re a Coyotes’ fan, and the current whirlwind of crap about the team is adding to years of frustration. In Van we had Brian Burke, back in the late 90’s, state to a reporter it takes a 25 cent phone call to have the team moved. (Or something pretty much like that). We got a new owner, and the team got better too. Hopefully the Coyotes continue to win, like their recent play indicates, and this last load of swirling crap will blow away. A winning team is what’s needed, and (maybe?) a new owner.

I think that's where more serious discussions about the team moving would stem.

Meruelo has been the owner for 18 months and it's been a disaster so far. If what was presented in the article continues, winning won't even help.

A penny pinching, micro managing, litigious person who doesn't seem value relationships will make things much worse. Look what happened in Ottawa from going over 18K a game to being last in the league attendance wise (and losing corporate support along the way) after burning many bridges. Ironically things have been quiet on that front after Anthony Leblanc joined the organization

Back to the Coyotes they're obviously not starting from as nearly as high from that standpoint and these kind of issues will turn people and corporate support away and nothing more than die hards will be left.

If things don't turn...or maybe won't....how long does Meruelo stick around now with the losses more than what he signed on for. Even paying as low as he did he can only lose so much to be made whole later. The lack of a long term lease doesn't help either

 

[Slashers98]

View attachment 397292

Relocation is always a possibility with this franchise. No one can dismiss that. But do you know how many check boxes have to be checked off before it even got to that point? How many f***ing years have many of you been in this forum and yet we're still here? Adversity always seems to be a constant companion with this franchise. I get it. The bar keeps getting lower, so low that you have to keep digging underground just to get under the current sub-level where that bar is.

The ask was to keep it in the sandbox. Meaning, the article. This. Thread.

Many of you have been in this forum for 10+ years awaiting the relocation of the Coyotes. You'd think that you'd be conditioned enough by now to keep in a holding pattern just a bit longer or long enough to discuss the actual goddamn topic for now.

Well, I didn't bring this topic to the thread, I just talked about the situation here in Quebec to explain that I don't see an imminent relocation happening.

 

[Fatass]

I think that's where more serious discussions about the team moving would stem.

Meruelo has been the owner for 18 months and it's been a disaster so far. If what was presented in the article continues, winning won't even help.

A penny pinching, micro managing, litigious person who doesn't seem value relationships will make things much worse. Look what happened in Ottawa from going over 18K a game to being last in the league attendance wise (and losing corporate support along the way) after burning many bridges. Ironically things have been quiet on that front after Anthony Leblanc joined the organization

Back to the Coyotes they're obviously not starting from as nearly as high from that standpoint and these kind of issues will turn people and corporate support away and nothing more than die hards will be left.

If things don't turn...or maybe won't....how long does Meruelo stick around now with the losses more than what he signed on for. Even paying as low as he did he can only lose so much to be made whole later. The lack of a long term lease doesn't help either

If Meruelo does sell, I wonder if the league just takes over? Maybe that will happen? Considering what’s in this article, could he be forced to sell?

 

[Major4Boarding]

My assumption is you’re a Coyotes’ fan, and the current whirlwind of crap about the team is adding to years of frustration. In Van we had Brian Burke, back in the late 90’s, state to a reporter it takes a 25 cent phone call to have the team moved. (Or something pretty much like that). We got a new owner, and the team got better too. Hopefully the Coyotes continue to win, like their recent play indicates, and this last load of swirling crap will blow away. A winning team is what’s needed, and (maybe?) a new owner.

Full disclosure post - You would be incorrect. I'm a Lightning fan. Live in the Tampa Bay area. For the record I'm:

* Anti-subsidy unless its a mutually beneficial "partnership".
* OTR as opposing about 90% of the things that have been shoveled in out of the Glendale and Phoenix Metro market regarding this franchise. Since the beginning.
* However, I'm not one to actively root for Relocation. Understanding however, that its a possibility. But I'm not champing at the bit for it because the Coyotes logo on the tail of a 757 that landed in Seattle means relocation's imminent.

As a Lightning fan, I had an 11 year head start on Coyotes fan in regards to dysfunction, chaos, turmoil, "Who's the Owner? Wait. I don't wanna know" and "Trade me right f***ing Now! (and hang up)". 92'-99' and *07'(08')-10' were some dark, embarrassing times for sure. But I'm a business guy. So I'm more methodical and dissect my approaches moreso than most.

In terms of "Monopoly - The Franchise Edition", I don't skip past GO and jump right to "Free Parking" to collect the pile in the middle of the board. One spot on the board at a time.

Hopefully that clears up my end. I don't want to make this about me. I made a promise to someone, who's no longer with us, that I'd try to limit the relocation talk in this Forum to when its warranted.

My point is, we have enough substance from the article to discuss instead of having to heap relocation into it at this time.

*The "Clown Show" started in 2008 but 2007 was when it was known that the Davidson Family wanted to divest themselves of the Lightning, leading to much uncertainty, and ultimately, our turn at two idiots fighting over the steering wheel.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Well, I didn't bring this topic to the thread, I just talked about the situation here in Quebec to explain that I don't see an imminent relocation happening.

You're right, you didn't. But you left that hanging chad, "moderators don't like it" post that warranted a response.

 

[Fenway]

Most of us agree the franchise would thrive with an arena either downtown or near the airport and accessible to Scottsdale, Tempe and Chandler.

Ideally, an arena owned by both the Suns and Coyotes would solve the problem.

But...............................

 

[StreetHawk]

Most of us agree the franchise would thrive with an arena either downtown or near the airport and accessible to Scottsdale, Tempe and Chandler.

Ideally, an arena owned by both the Suns and Coyotes would solve the problem.

But...............................

That ship sailed. Heck, it was never there in reality.

They arrived to a 4 year old basketball only facility which was government funded. So, no goverment money was going to be used for a new arena for them.

They needed the Glendale deal to come from Scottsdale/Tempe, but that never materialized, though the ownership group at the time did try, but either was not willing or able to come up with the funds to cover the $200 million cost for a new arena around the millennium.

With the relationship the Coyotes have had with Glendale not to mention, in the upcoming post Covid world, that any government is going to give money to a sports franchise for an arena.

 

[Fenway]

That ship sailed. Heck, it was never there in reality.

They arrived to a 4 year old basketball only facility which was government funded. So, no goverment money was going to be used for a new arena for them.

They needed the Glendale deal to come from Scottsdale/Tempe, but that never materialized, though the ownership group at the time did try, but either was not willing or able to come up with the funds to cover the $200 million cost for a new arena around the millennium.

With the relationship the Coyotes have had with Glendale not to mention, in the upcoming post Covid world, that any government is going to give money to a sports franchise for an arena.

It is well documented that when the Suns were planning the new arena Jerry Colangelo called the NHL asking if Phoenix was on the NHL radar and John Ziegler told him it will never happen so the arena was not designed for the NHL.

 

[TheLegend]

That ship sailed. Heck, it was never there in reality.

They arrived to a 4 year old basketball only facility which was government funded. So, no goverment money was going to be used for a new arena for them.

They needed the Glendale deal to come from Scottsdale/Tempe, but that never materialized, though the ownership group at the time did try, but either was not willing or able to come up with the funds to cover the $200 million cost for a new arena around the millennium.

With the relationship the Coyotes have had with Glendale not to mention, in the upcoming post Covid world, that any government is going to give money to a sports franchise for an arena.

It is well documented that when the Suns were planning the new arena Jerry Colangelo called the NHL asking if Phoenix was on the NHL radar and John Ziegler told him it will never happen so the arena was not designed for the NHL.

Just to add.....

Scottsdale's City Council cold shouldered an arena deal with Steve Ellman despite two public ballot measures that heavily favored it. Their reason was wanting Ellman to reveal more of his financials, and Ellman wouldn't give in. Glendale stepped up because, due to the population explosion there were several cities within Phoenix Metro looking to be a bigger player...... AND it didn't hurt that it's mayor at the time wanted to get one over on Scottsdale.

There is no way to know had the recession not hit in the mid-2000's if Ellman could have finished his Westgate project. But it's safe to say a fully completed Westgate as originally planned would have given Ellman/Moyes plenty of revenue for the Coyotes to survive there.

 

[Fenway]

Just to add.....

Scottsdale's City Council cold shouldered an arena deal with Steve Ellman despite two public ballot measures that heavily favored it. Their reason was wanting Ellman to reveal more of his financials, and Ellman wouldn't give in. Glendale stepped up because, due to the population explosion there were several cities within Phoenix Metro looking to be a bigger player...... AND it didn't hurt that it's mayor at the time wanted to get one over on Scottsdale.

There is no way to know had the recession not hit in the mid-2000's if Ellman could have finished his Westgate project. But it's safe to say a fully completed Westgate as originally planned would have given Ellman/Moyes plenty of revenue for the Coyotes to survive there.

Bettman should have cut bait after Reinsdorf took a look at the Coyotes and said it was not viable in Glendale.

If you look hard at NHL expansion since 1967 the biggest failure as a market was Kansas City

Atlanta and Cleveland were doomed by bad ownership as were Oakland and Hartford.

 

[SunDancer]

If things don't turn...or maybe won't....how long does Meruelo stick around now with the losses more than what he signed on for. Even paying as low as he did he can only lose so much to be made whole later. The lack of a long term lease doesn't help either

The article says he expected to become profitable in 2 years!

"He held his first staff-wide meeting last winter, where he called a projected revenue loss of $53 million unacceptable, according to multiple people in attendance. He detailed a plan to steer the team toward profitability within two years with increased ticket sales and sponsorships, a cut of expansion fees from the new Seattle team (slated to be distributed in April 2021) and cost-saving measures, including reducing player payroll."

And this was before the pandemic. How long he remains at the helm probably depends on whatever lifelines the NHL throws him ... and knowing Gary, they will be generous.

 

[SomeDude]

If Meruelo does sell, I wonder if the league just takes over? Maybe that will happen? Considering what’s in this article, could he be forced to sell?

I'm not sure if they could/would go that far at this point, but as I pointed out in the main board thread, if Chayka was suspended for "conduct detrimental to the league" then wouldn't their actions of trying to stiff vendors and then bully them into lower prices also be a bad reflection on the NHL? I would think they should also be subject to discipline because it makes the league look 2nd rate (to say the least) to have one of their franchises acting like that.

 

[Mightygoose]

The article says he expected to become profitable in 2 years!

"He held his first staff-wide meeting last winter, where he called a projected revenue loss of $53 million unacceptable, according to multiple people in attendance. He detailed a plan to steer the team toward profitability within two years with increased ticket sales and sponsorships, a cut of expansion fees from the new Seattle team (slated to be distributed in April 2021) and cost-saving measures, including reducing player payroll."

And this was before the pandemic. How long he remains at the helm probably depends on whatever lifelines the NHL throws him ... and knowing Gary, they will be generous.

If he is calling a 53 million dollar revenue loss unacceptable then the only way he can be profitable is when he sells and for something closer to market value. Even if the next US TV deal is around the 750 million figure that's been tossed around, losing the share of the Seattle expansion fee when it expires will pretty much offset it.

The league has already got an additional billion dollar loan to help teams weather the storm and Meruelo still can't pay his bills on time and for the full amount? Can't see what else the league can do here.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Bettman should have cut bait after Reinsdorf took a look at the Coyotes and said it was not viable in Glendale.

If you look hard at NHL expansion since 1967 the biggest failure as a market was Kansas City

Atlanta and Cleveland were doomed by bad ownership as were Oakland and Hartford.

Same could apply to Minnesota and Quebec City, no?

Neither market could be classified as a failure, really, especially Minnesota with the Wild's sellout streak.