Duncan Keith vs Scott Niedermayer

[JaegerDice]

Neidermayer is the guy I always use as a direct comparable for Keith (which makes the fact that he's about a year away from the age Neidermayer retired a little sad/scary).

I think they're as close to dead even as any two players of the same position from different eras could be.

I guess I'll homer vote Keith, but I wouldn't call anybody who chose Neidermayer crazy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What defensive game?

I'm definitely in the "Niedermayer is overrated by the hockey media" crowd, but he did finish pretty high in a couple of player's polls for "best defensive defenseman" in the league during his brief peak in Anaheim.

 

[justafan22]

It was literally keith- seabrook and oduya - hammer for 2 1/2 rounds.

 

[feffan]

I think leaving Niedermayer’s 2003 out of this group is perhaps understating its value. Niedermayer led the playoffs in scoring while the Devils went 25 GF, 14 GA at even-strength with him on the ice. Team effort with Stevens and Brodeur being incredible too - and you can’t give anyone the Conn Smythe over Giguere - but if we’ve forgotten how casually ESPN/ABC was throwing out Bobby Orr comparisons, let’s maybe remind ourselves of that. Niedermayer was flying that Spring, and even his check on Chistov scores pretty high on the Stevens-o-meter.

Agreed. And ironically and unfortunate considering the thread that I didn´t mention Niedermayers own greatest run. The one wich after he really broke out. To me that run is the breaking point why he also won the following Norris. Ironically there, that Norris (as well as Niedermayers Smythe...) probably should have been Prongers, with no complaints for me if Gonchar had the 2nd place on the First All Star Team.

A minor thing, didn´t Langebrunner technically lead the PO:s in scoring? Had it been the Art Ross it would have been his. Not that it takes anything away from Niedermayer that spring.

 

[Ivan13]

As I often say, Niedermayer's PO run that year was so remarkable I thought Rob won the Conn Smythe when I heard a Niedermayer has won it.

 

[FerrisRox]

I take Scott Niedermayer.

 

[Whaleafs]

IMO Niedermayer was Coffey's and has won almost everything conceivable:

Memorial Cup
Memorial Cup MVP
World Jr. Gold
World Championship Gold
World Cup Gold
Olympic Gold x2 (once as Captain)
Norris Trophy
Conn Smythe
Stanley Cup x4 (once as Captain)

 

[JackSlater]

A minor thing, didn´t Langebrunner technically lead the PO:s in scoring? Had it been the Art Ross it would have been his. Not that it takes anything away from Niedermayer that spring.

Goal scoring is the tie breaker for the Art Ross trophy, but there is no tie breaker for just leading scorer.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but Keith's Norris record is not representative of how people perceived him between 2008-2009 and 2016-2017.He was pretty much always in the "general discussion" as the best defender in the game, especially since he was already the most proven #1 defenseman to win championships, with Doughty not far behind in that respect.His Norris record follows his offensive stats and underrates him in the years he didn't score 50 points.

I would enjoy reading a comparison between Keith's smythe run and other runs by defensemen.He reached an extremely high level.I doubt Niedermayer, great as he was, ever reached that level in the playoffs.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but Keith's Norris record is not representative of how people perceived him between 2008-2009 and 2016-2017.

I would add that Niedermayer’s is not representative of how he was perceived either. Two Norris nominations and three All-Star selections (Keith) against three Norris nominations and four All-Star selections (Niedermayer) for relatively healthy players considered ~top-100 material for one of the more reputation-based awards?

Definitely red flag material, and not one that I think we should write-off for Keith by saying that his Norris votes follow his offensive statistics as if Niedermayer wasn’t collecting accolades every time he scored above 50 points too.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

well one way of putting it might be to ask, would niedermayer’s 2AST season be keith’s 4th best season? no. 5th? no. 6th? and so on.

 

[quoipourquoi]

well one way of putting it might be to ask, would niedermayer’s 2AST season be keith’s 4th best season? no. 5th? no. 6th? and so on.

Niedermayer’s 1998 is likely as good as anything beyond Keith’s two nominations. The buzz around All-Star weekend was that Canada might have left the Norris winner off their Nagano roster as Niedermayer’s hot offensive pace to start the season kept going beyond November - essentially turning a minor snub into a potential catastrophe.

Ended up being a pretty weird Norris race down the stretch with Rob Blake and Scott Niedermayer absolutely hemorrhaging plus-minus while Nicklas Lidstrom and Chris Pronger saw their goal scoring flatline from mid-season onward. I think there was a finer line between the four than voters did, but I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that voters discounted Scott Stevens’ teammate.

No 1st or 2nd place Norris votes, yet someone gives him a 1st Team nod. Only the 13 combined 3rd and 4th place votes, but 19 2nd Team votes. Somehow an extra 13% of voters went from thinking he wasn’t top-4 to thinking he was.

Offensively, no one was the goal scorer that Rob Blake was, but Niedermayer was just 8 points back from his top-scoring teammate (57 points to Holik’s 65 points) while Lidstrom was 10 back from one who missed time (59 points to Yzerman’s 69 points in 75 games) and 12 even-strength points back from his own partner (23 points to Murphy’s 35 points).

If New Jersey doesn’t choke away the President Trophy and Brodeur’s first assault on Bernie Parent’s record in their final 10 games, I think Niedermayer’s 1997-98 would be held in greater esteem. But a poor ending doesn’t necessarily negate everything that came before. Held against Duncan Keith’s third-best season by voting records (2016-17) - which was against some ridiculous competition - I’d say about even, with Niedermayer’s being perhaps more notable (but not necessarily better) because of the Nagano narrative and because he stayed afloat in the race longer.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

I highly doubt either of them are 6’1. Maybe you just thought Keith was bigger because he’s got a mean streak in him.

I could've sworn hockeyreference.com had both those guys at 6'1." It could've been "generous" to both guys though haha.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Niedermayer’s 1998 is likely as good as anything beyond Keith’s two nominations. The buzz around All-Star weekend was that Canada might have left the Norris winner off their Nagano roster as Niedermayer’s hot offensive pace to start the season kept going beyond November - essentially turning a minor snub into a potential catastrophe.

Ended up being a pretty weird Norris race down the stretch with Rob Blake and Scott Niedermayer absolutely hemorrhaging plus-minus while Nicklas Lidstrom and Chris Pronger saw their goal scoring flatline from mid-season onward. I think there was a finer line between the four than voters did, but I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that voters discounted Scott Stevens’ teammate.

No 1st or 2nd place Norris votes, yet someone gives him a 1st Team nod. Only the 13 combined 3rd and 4th place votes, but 19 2nd Team votes. Somehow an extra 13% of voters went from thinking he wasn’t top-4 to thinking he was.

Offensively, no one was the goal scorer that Rob Blake was, but Niedermayer was just 8 points back from his top-scoring teammate (57 points to Holik’s 65 points) while Lidstrom was 10 back from one who missed time (59 points to Yzerman’s 69 points in 75 games) and 12 even-strength points back from his own partner (23 points to Murphy’s 35 points).

If New Jersey doesn’t choke away the President Trophy and Brodeur’s first assault on Bernie Parent’s record in their final 10 games, I think Niedermayer’s 1997-98 would be held in greater esteem. But a poor ending doesn’t necessarily negate everything that came before. Held against Duncan Keith’s third-best season by voting records (2016-17) - which was against some ridiculous competition - I’d say about even, with Niedermayer’s being perhaps more notable (but not necessarily better) because of the Nagano narrative and because he stayed afloat in the race longer.

i can't say i remember the ins and outs of the '98 norris race closely, so thanks for the detail.

what i do remember, though, is that by reputation niedermayer was more comparable to pre-dallas zubov than the do-everything all-round defenseman he was from '03 to '07.

at the same time, i also can't say i intimately remember keith's career well enough to do a forensic accounting of each season and how good he was. but i do agree with hawks fans over the years when they say just looking at norris votes and how many points he scored doesn't necessary paint an accurate picture of which years he was at his best and how good he was in them. my general feeling though is that your average prime keith year is a better season than niedermayer's offensive spike but not-yet-ready-for-primetime season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Niedermayer getting more Norris votes than Scott Stevens in 1998 was a joke to anyone who followed the team closely

 

[quoipourquoi]

Niedermayer getting more Norris votes than Scott Stevens in 1998 was a joke to anyone who followed the team closely

And that’s what will downplay support - the immediate comparison to a older teammate who is better in one specific area that does not fully cover the scope of the award.

“But is he even better than Teammate X?”

Defensively, no. Teammate X just happens to be the best defensive player on the planet (or 1A to Chris Pronger), so even if after Doug Gilmour’s injury when it looks like Niedermayer as a defenseman might end up being the leading scorer on the President’s Trophy winner (both he and the Devils fell just short), everyone is going to ask...

“But is he even better than Teammate X?”

In 1998, no one had to ask that about Rob Blake, and both Coffey and Konstantinov were finally out of Nicklas Lidstrom’s way. It’s a two-way award and one of those ways is an unavoidable comparison to the Devil himself. But it wasn’t until 2003-04 that Scott Stevens finally missed enough games where no one had to make the comparison.

So in terms of Niedermayer and Keith, if Keith had some HOF defenseman as a teammate splitting focus, at least then it would make more sense as to how he’s gone this far with just the two nominations. He’s a healthy player on a team that wins championships; it’s a recipe for success. Look at 2013: best team in hockey, winning the President’s Trophy easily, team is on the cover of Sports Illustrated, 47 out of 48 games, and the generation’s best defenseman is hurt... only 6th in Norris voting?

Going back to 2008 when Keith received his first Norris votes, six other defensemen have received more nominations while three others have matched his two. Cut the comparison to his first victory in 2010, and it’s five and two. His playoffs will make up ground on those 7-9 guys, but they make it even harder to understand why Keith would be under-represented on Norris ballots relative to his actual regular season performance since he may as well be skating in a glorious spotlight instead of the shadow of Scott Stevens.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

Keith's play in 2010 Cup run-minus 7 teeth combined with the 2015 Cup run playing over 31 minutes, 3rd on team in scoring while being +16 gives him the edge for me.

 

[feffan]

Goal scoring is the tie breaker for the Art Ross trophy, but there is no tie breaker for just leading scorer.

Is that stated somewhere by the NHL, or just an logic assumption from "the real world"? As "The Art Ross Trophy is an annual award given to the player who leads the National Hockey League in scoring points at the end of the regular season.". The tie breaker therefore sets who leads the leauge in scoring. And the RS rules should transfer to the PO.

Not really arguing, just really interested how this is seen by the leauge

 

[JackSlater]

Is that stated somewhere by the NHL, or just an logic assumption from "the real world"? As "The Art Ross Trophy is an annual award given to the player who leads the National Hockey League in scoring points at the end of the regular season.". The tie breaker therefore sets who leads the leauge in scoring. And the RS rules should transfer to the PO.

Not really arguing, just really interested how this is seen by the leauge

It's taken from basic language. The NHL controls the Art Ross trophy and can thus give it away under whatever criteria it wants. Leading scorer is the top scorer by definition, and score is generally regarded to mean points. The NHL could add a tiebreaker to the term if it wanted but I wouldn't recognize it, not unlike the NHL trying to call the 2016 World Cup a best on best tournament.

 

[feffan]

It's taken from basic language. The NHL controls the Art Ross trophy and can thus give it away under whatever criteria it wants. Leading scorer is the top scorer by definition, and score is generally regarded to mean points. The NHL could add a tiebreaker to the term if it wanted but I wouldn't recognize it, not unlike the NHL trying to call the 2016 World Cup a best on best tournament.

But basic language has nothing to do with it. The NHL doesn´t only control the Art Ross. They control the whole product that is the NHL. And they control the rules and therefore the official tie breakers, either we like it or not. There´s no claim that Lindros led the leauge in scoring in 94/95 for example. And I can´t find a reference somewhere else that Niedermayer lead the leauge in scoring a playoffs. But it can be found for Langenbrunner and for example Alfredsson (who is the only one I´ve seen described leading the 06/07 in scoring, even if Heatley and Spezza tied him for the lead...). So one personal opinion wasn´t really what I was looking for, but how it´s offically deemed. And for the record, I am one of thoose who think the Art Ross (and title leading scorer(s)...) should be able to be shared. So to me all instead seem to indicate that in fact Niedermayer by the NHL standars never led the PO in scoring. Nor dit Heatley or Spezza. As the tie breaker has been established by the company who owns the product. Much like that a Star Wars fan on a personal level can choose to ignore Jar Jar Binks and Episode all toghether, but that doesn´t change the fact that he in fact have to recognise their existence if he would like to indulge in a debate concerning the Star Wars universe with other SW fans

And for that. On a personal level I didn´t recognize the World Cup as a best-on-best. Nor is for example the World Series in MLB a World Series. It´s not even a Continental Series.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

This thread needs a poll

 

[danincanada]

It's a toss up to me. Both great skaters and HOF defenseman. Good players to compare.

Niedermayer getting more Norris votes than Scott Stevens in 1998 was a joke to anyone who followed the team closely

Niedermayer and Zubov compare very well with each other for that season because they both put up points but weren't relied on as heavily in terms of ice-time, and specifically PK ice-time. The guys who finished in front of them for the Norris all played bigger roles for their teams. These two both averaged 24:09 total per game and only 2:18/game and 2:00/game of PK time. The guys who finished ahead all averaged 2+ more minutes per game and most doubled that amount of PK time.

I'm surprised Niedermayer is getting so overrated for this season by some. If anyone should have finished higher in voting it was Zubov. They had the correct finalists, just messed up on the winner.

 

[Iapyi]

I would take Keith.

 

[JackSlater]

But basic language has nothing to do with it. The NHL doesn´t only control the Art Ross. They control the whole product that is the NHL. And they control the rules and therefore the official tie breakers, either we like it or not. There´s no claim that Lindros led the leauge in scoring in 94/95 for example. And I can´t find a reference somewhere else that Niedermayer lead the leauge in scoring a playoffs. But it can be found for Langenbrunner and for example Alfredsson (who is the only one I´ve seen described leading the 06/07 in scoring, even if Heatley and Spezza tied him for the lead...). So one personal opinion wasn´t really what I was looking for, but how it´s offically deemed. And for the record, I am one of thoose who think the Art Ross (and title leading scorer(s)...) should be able to be shared. So to me all instead seem to indicate that in fact Niedermayer by the NHL standars never led the PO in scoring. Nor dit Heatley or Spezza. As the tie breaker has been established by the company who owns the product. Much like that a Star Wars fan on a personal level can choose to ignore Jar Jar Binks and Episode all toghether, but that doesn´t change the fact that he in fact have to recognise their existence if he would like to indulge in a debate concerning the Star Wars universe with other SW fans

And for that. On a personal level I didn´t recognize the World Cup as a best-on-best. Nor is for example the World Series in MLB a World Series. It´s not even a Continental Series.

You asked the question but you seem to have an answer already. I disagree overall though. The leading scorer is just the scorer with the most points - the NHL did not invent the term and doesn't control its criteria or usage. The Art Ross is a different matter. I would feel correct saying that Eric Lindros (or Marcel Dionne) led the NHL in scoring once as it is something that is true. He is definitely not an Art Ross winner though. Niedermayer led the playoffs in scoring, he just doesn't meet the criteria for a theoretical playoff Art Ross.

 

[feffan]

You asked the question but you seem to have an answer already. I disagree overall though. The leading scorer is just the scorer with the most points - the NHL did not invent the term and doesn't control its criteria or usage. The Art Ross is a different matter. I would feel correct saying that Eric Lindros (or Marcel Dionne) led the NHL in scoring once as it is something that is true. He is definitely not an Art Ross winner though. Niedermayer led the playoffs in scoring, he just doesn't meet the criteria for a theoretical playoff Art Ross.

I´m coming to my conclusion now, based on your answers and reading up. So thanks for the points, even if I didn´t end up agreeing (well, in spirit I do...). I really do think Lindros and Dionne should get credit for leading the leauge in scoring, but as it´s the NHL:s rule about who is the league leader in points I think the conclusion, as I see it, is that "there can be only one". The Art Ross goes to the leading scorer and it´s only one. Never more. The rules are made that way. It´s formulated so that only one can get credit for leading the leauge in scoring. And therefore one can´t say that Niedermayer, Heatley, Lindros or Dionne led the league in scoring. PO as RS. Even if it´s unjust to me. And nhl.com backs that up, as they place playoff scorers by the same criteria.

But enough about this. Thanks for good input!