Duncan Keith vs Scott Niedermayer

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't disagree, but I don't think you can really use the teammate argument against him when the other guy is Duncan Keith.

I think Keith caused Toews to be overrated more than the other way around.

Keith was a monster for Chicago in those years. Didn't they only have four legitimate defenders against Boston or something like that, so they had to double-shift Keith constantly?

 

[Ivan13]

Neidermayer, the numbers he was able to post on a team that played strict defencie is truly unbelievable. He is literally in my point of view as good as Lidstrom, the difference was that Lidstrom was surrounded by a bunch hockey hall of famers, now it's not to say Neidermayer had a bunch of nobodies. the Devils at the time, also had highly skilled players, like Mogilny Sykora, Elias, Jason Arnot, but they literally invented the "Trap" and because of years of him playing on the New Jersey team dropped his stats, a bit, or you can say a lot. He never had the luxary of a strong fire power team like Keith had with Chicago, it's not to say Keith is bad, I think Keith is the best dman in this generation of hockey or this era, or this last 10 year era, whatever you want to call it, bar none.

This is so full of falacies I don't know where to begin. The "defensive" Devils scored more goals that the run and gun Avalanche in more than one season, they were a team loaded to the gills, the claim he is as good as Lidas is well out there to say the least and the claim that they invented the trap is so comically untrue it boggles the mind.

 

[billingtons ghost]

This is so full of falacies I don't know where to begin. The "defensive" Devils scored more goals that the run and gun Avalanche in more than one season, they were a team loaded to the gills, the claim he is as good as Lidas is well out there to say the least and the claim that they invented the trap is so comically untrue it boggles the mind.

^this^ so very much. I love Nieds, but no way is he near Lids, I don't think.

The Devils only played the trap because it was so successful for Lemaire's Habs teams - and they were unfairly labled as the poster-child of the trap.

The Mario Lemieux Pens played a 1-4 at times for cripes sake.

 

[lawrence]

Anyone who voted neidermayer, will also agree that Keith is probably one if this eras best dmans, neidermayer had maybe 3 of Stevens good offensive years, the last 10 seasons or so Stevens was just a 20 point dman.

Duncan Keith has Brent seabrook from day 1, and he’s no slouch either, a strong reputable career top pairing guy who made team canada in 2010.

But it’s neidermayer for me. His defensive game is truly unreal.

 

[BenchBrawl]

To answer the thread, I take Keith easily.

 

[NewtJorden]

Niedermayer by far

 

[Oneiro]

In his last three years in NJ and most of his time with the Ducks, Neidermayer's defensive game was at a level I don't think Keith has reached yet. Also, both of them are great skaters but very few in the history of the NHL are on par with Neidermayer's skating.

And I can't even believe it has to be said, but neither player was as dominant as Lidstrom.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Uh, is Niedermayer experiencing some kind of weird HF resurgence or something? Pretty sure the consensus was that he was overrated.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Uh, is Niedermayer experiencing some kind of weird HF resurgence or something? Pretty sure the consensus was that he was overrated.

Someone can consider a player to be “overrated” relative to the most common perception of their ability and still believe that player to be very, very good.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Someone can consider a player to be “overrated” relative to the most common perception of their ability and still believe that player to be very, very good.

Which is fine, but the concurrent consensus on Keith was that he was extremely good.

 

[Blackhawk93]

In his last three years in NJ and most of his time with the Ducks, Neidermayer's defensive game was at a level I don't think Keith has reached yet. Also, both of them are great skaters but very few in the history of the NHL are on par with Neidermayer's skating.

And I can't even believe it has to be said, but neither player was as dominant as Lidstrom.

Holy hyperbole man. Seriously just go watch the 2015 playoffs. Keith was just on another planet. You’ll be hard pressed to find a better defensive performance than that.

Also Keith is actually a really good skater, which is why he’s so effective. He’s just not smoothe like you might want to see. It’s like he almost hops along the ice, but skating is a strength of his.

And someone said something about being paired with seabrook? Stop that, seabrook was as good as he was because Keith could cover him. If you’re gonna use that argument then use Hammer at least.

The only notable strength Nieds had over Keith was his shot. But that’s because Keith failed to develop his shot past the WHL. He might have a few more Norris trophies if he did.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

Personally I'd rather have Niedermayer for a playoff run...….that quickness and offensive ability when needed really seemed to jump out at me. Their stats make saying who had the better peak difficult for me....some reason I thought Keith might have some size on Niedermayer, but they're both 6'1."

 

[feffan]

Holy hyperbole man. Seriously just go watch the 2015 playoffs. Keith was just on another planet. You’ll be hard pressed to find a better defensive performance than that.

Agreed. Keith 2015 along with Karlsson 2017 is the best d-man perfomance in the playoffs since Pronger or Lidstrom (who as always was so steady and calm, that he´s dominance of tilting the game when on ice is forgotten in these debates...). Before that probably Stevens 00 and Leetch 1994.

There´s a weird thing going on where Stevens, Lidstrom, Leetch and now Keiths dominance seem to be downgraded as years pass by for different reasons. But Niedermayers legend just seem to grow. Stevens "nemesis" in the case being the more shiny toy in Niedermayer. Lidstroms not being flashy enough and suffering "the team argument", even if he really was the one constant big thing on all off thoose great Red Wings teams. Leetch of course being in the shadow of Messier. Ask any common hockey fan who won the Smythe in Rangers Cup and few will say Leetch. And Leetch was more important that spring, even if they wouldn´t have won without Messier as well. Keith seem to be caught in his forwards shadow and "the team argument". Comparing the Blackhawks to another great team that was built around a great wing, center and d he was for the Hawks what Potvin was for the Islanders. Even if of course nowhere near Potvin as a player. But to me he was the most important part. Without him the Hawks would have no Cup. Without one of Towes and Kane they still may have had 1 or a few. Just as I can´t see the Devils getting a Cup without Stevens, but without Niedermayer. And to be frank. I think thoose Duck teams could have had a inferior defenceman than Nidermayer there and still won. But without Pronger they wouldn´t have won. It was Prongers mean spirit setting the tone for that team. Even when not playing they where playing with his attitude.

Someone can consider a player to be “overrated” relative to the most common perception of their ability and still believe that player to be very, very good.

This sums it up for me. I really enjoyed watching Niedermayer play. A favourite of the time. He was for most of his career a top 10-30 defender in the leauge. For a few years he was a top 3. Even if I´m not sure all his Norris where truly "earned". But even if I tought he was very, very good I find myself arguing against him all the time, because there is a perception growing that he was a top 5 defender for 10+ seasons and one of the absolute best to ever play the position, when in fact he probably wasn´t even one of the top 10 defenders in the leauge for more than 3-4 seasons.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I think Keith caused Toews to be overrated more than the other way around.

Keith was a monster for Chicago in those years. Didn't they only have four legitimate defenders against Boston or something like that, so they had to double-shift Keith constantly?

That was against Tampa Bay (and Anaheim in the semi final) in 2015. After Rozsival got injured against Minnesota, Chicago almost literally played with 4 defensemen the rest of the way.

Niedermayer was arguably less important than Brian Rafalski in some of those Devils years. Great in 2003 though, probably the best Devils skater. Still, never a question of who was the anchor of the blueline in Chicago. Nobody would bat an eye if Keith had 3 Conn Smythe's.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Agreed. Keith 2015 along with Karlsson 2017 is the best d-man perfomance in the playoffs since Pronger or Lidstrom (who as always was so steady and calm, that he´s dominance of tilting the game when on ice is forgotten in these debates...). Before that probably Stevens 00 and Leetch 1994.

I think leaving Niedermayer’s 2003 out of this group is perhaps understating its value. Niedermayer led the playoffs in scoring while the Devils went 25 GF, 14 GA at even-strength with him on the ice. Team effort with Stevens and Brodeur being incredible too - and you can’t give anyone the Conn Smythe over Giguere - but if we’ve forgotten how casually ESPN/ABC was throwing out Bobby Orr comparisons, let’s maybe remind ourselves of that. Niedermayer was flying that Spring, and even his check on Chistov scores pretty high on the Stevens-o-meter.

 

[Blackhawk93]

Personally I'd rather have Niedermayer for a playoff run...….that quickness and offensive ability when needed really seemed to jump out at me. Their stats make saying who had the better peak difficult for me....some reason I thought Keith might have some size on Niedermayer, but they're both 6'1."

I highly doubt either of them are 6’1. Maybe you just thought Keith was bigger because he’s got a mean streak in him.

 

[sr edler]

Keith is definitely not big, just very fit and with an occasional dirty aspect to his game. One of my favorite throwback posts of all time on this site is when Hawks fan @who_me? called him a "chihuahua on skates" on the Hawks board. This was somewhere around his rookie season.

 

[Blackhawk93]

I think leaving Niedermayer’s 2003 out of this group is perhaps understating its value. Niedermayer led the playoffs in scoring while the Devils went 25 GF, 14 GA at even-strength with him on the ice. Team effort with Stevens and Brodeur being incredible too - and you can’t give anyone the Conn Smythe over Giguere - but if we’ve forgotten how casually ESPN/ABC was throwing out Bobby Orr comparisons, let’s maybe remind ourselves of that. Niedermayer was flying that Spring, and even his check on Chistov scores pretty high on the Stevens-o-meter.

To compare, Keith’s greatest runwhich was 2015 was better than this.

Keith had 21 points in 23 games, including the Stanley Cup winner. Only two points behind the playoff leaders Patrick Kane and Tyler Johnson.

What may be more impressive is the Hawks played the final two rounds with 3 and half defensemen (Oduya could barely hold his stick). They has to double shift Keith and he ended up averaging over 31 minutes a game of ice time. Second in most in history only to some plug named Chris Pronger.

And a unanimous Conn Smythe winner with no one else in the conversation.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I mean, he was. He and Lemaire had a not-very-secret feud over how he was used.









Lemaire wanted to use the Lamborghini to pick up groceries.

Lemaire was gone after 1998.

When the Devils were an offense-first (but still defensively responsible) team under Robbie Ftorek and Larry Robinson, it was Brian Rafalski, not Scott Niedermayer, who initially emerged as their top offensive threat from the blueline.

Did Lemaire "ruin" Niedermayer for a few years after he left?

 

[Eisen]

I mean, he was. He and Lemaire had a not-very-secret feud over how he was used.









Lemaire wanted to use the Lamborghini to pick up groceries.

Honestly, believing in a system is fine. But I don't get when it's too rigid. You have to play a player according to his strength. Especially when he's really good at it.

 

[Sentinel]

But it’s neidermayer for me. His defensive game is truly unreal.

What defensive game?

 

[Sentinel]

It's close. Niedermeyer had the higher offensive peak, but for well-roundness and overall consistency give me Keith. He was like a meaner Lidstrom.

 

[shadow1]

Keith by a hair.

To me, Neidermayer’s peak as a top defender was shorter. He was always very, very good until the early 00’s (around ‘03ish) when he took the next step and became elite.

 

[Big Phil]

Scotty, hands down, not even close.

I don't think any Hawks fans should say Keith
because he is a Hawks player.

Niedermayers is one best d-man ever to play this sport
Keith is not. - even thou Keith has had a tremendous career -

I'll take Keith, but either way none of these guys were at the point where it "wasn't even close" to the other.

Here is why I take Keith. Did Niedermayer have a 10 year span like Keith where he was routinely elite? One thing people often forget is that it took forever for Niedermayer to break through. He really didn't hit his stride until the 2003 playoffs. Then the Norris in 2004, two first team all-stars in 2006 and 2007 and basically that was it. Not a whole lot to take from his career after 2007.

Keith has a much better Norris voting record, more broad, more good seasons, and it was only last year (2017) he was a 2nd team all-star.

In their playoff career Keith was the more impactful defenseman. Niedermayer was always someone you figured could do so much more. Remember his rush in the 1995 Cup final? Then the end to end goal vs. Sweden in the 1996 World Cup? You saw this stuff and then wouldn't see anything like it again for another 5 years from him. For the first part of his career he was basically Jay Bouwmeester. A defenseman you liked because he always had such a high ceiling, but one that never showed it.

Niedermayer is not what I call an all-time great. Maybe we have different standards but he was nowhere to be seen for even low Norris finishes when guys like Desjardins and Derian Hatcher were getting them.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i love niedermayer and hate keith, but i have to go with keith here.

to my eyes, and i think the world of niedermayer's '03 run, keith was better in 2015. and as kyle mentions above, keith could have all three conn smythes and none of us would have blinked. whereas when niedermayer won the '07 smythe, we all blinked hard.

basically though, it comes down to this for me: niedermayer's best seasons were all in a row, while keith's were more spread out. but if we take out each guy's best three years, your "normal" keith year is going to be a lot higher than your "normal" niedermayer year.

that said, i understand the bouwmeester comparison with pre-'03 niedermayer and at times i've even made it myself, but i don't really like it. bouwmeester's problem is he just isn't a take charge player, he's reactive, and so he uses his speed, his reach, and his very good instincts to play a really good safe game. on the defensive end he covers more than his share of the ice, but i never saw a lot of him making life uncomfortable for the opposition. and as a puck-mover, he makes good solid outlets but he takes what the opposition gives him.

all along, niedermayer was an assertive player, early on often to a fault. ran around a little too much on both ends for lemaire's comfort, gave the puck away too much. but that assertiveness in him is also why as he matured he put it together and became a hall of fame player and bouwmeester became "just" a safe, second pair olympian to pair with a play-pusher (pietrangelo).