Post-Game Talk: Ducks @ Sens

[Micklebot]

Works for me.

Works fine for me too, but I've had issues with DNS lookups for Hockey.Analysis before. I mostly just keep hitting refresh if that happens.

 

[Berserker*]

I just feel like this Spezza bashing is going to end up biting the entire city and fanbase on the ass very soon. We would all be stupid to believe that Spezza himself doesn't hear all the criticism, bashing and vitriol. It is a city with a small town feel. Everyone hears everything. I don't know if he feels victimised (but maybe he should). The guy is who he is. He is a high risk player. And when it comes to next July, what happens if he is tired of hearing all this ********, and decides to sign elsewhere? We would be out a number one centre.

It comes with the territory. Any player who makes $7 million per year, is the best offensive player (or at least forward) on the team and is also the captain is going to get a lot of negative flak for inconsistent or poor performances. If Spezza can't handle the criticism then he shouldn't have asked for $7 million per year and he shouldn't have asked to be Captain.

Michalek has essentially the same issue right now. He is in the top five in terms of offensive talent on this team and he is making $6 million per year but he has been playing horribly. He has and will continue to get criticism for poor performances and rightfully so. If he didn't want any criticism, he shouldn't have asked for that kind of compensation.

 

[Quo]

Works fine for me too, but I've had issues with DNS lookups for Hockey.Analysis before. I mostly just keep hitting refresh if that happens.

Yup. 27th time was the charm.

 

[sensrulz]

KK, Spez and Cowen are coming off major injuries and personally I think it has affected KK more as he seems to panic to avoid getting hit, he's quite small for a top pairing Dman and his foot speed is what allowed him to be decent defensively, hopefully he returns to Norris form in the not too distant future.

Spez still makes bad passes which result in odd man rushes, I'm not sure why he still does this at this point in his career as you would think he would know not toby now.

Remains to be seen if his body(back) can handle the grind of an 82 game+ season.

I'm not sure many teams would trade for him based on his back issues but when he is on he is one of the best out there and has a wicked shot.

Alfie was a better player when he was younger as he could kill penalties, work the PP at the point, had an accurate and hard shot and was better defensively but he is no longer that player so in a way it was best that he left than watch him digress at 5 or more mil. per year.

Cowen is a work in progress as he is only 22 so I will reserve judgement until he has more games under his belt.

This is a young team so there are bound to be growing pains, here's to becoming pesky again.

 

[Skrymir]

5 on 5, Spezza is not effective.

I admit those are some damning stats against Spezza's 5 on 5 effectiveness, but I will point out that any Rating system that has our top 5 most effective players (HART stat - I included defencemen) as:

1-Corvo
2-McArthur
3-Conacher
4-Cowen
5-Gryba

Isn't really capturing the performance of the players involved.

 

[sensrulz]

5 on 5, Spezza is not effective.

Looking at stats based on 9 games??? makes no sense to me, also he was dealing with a groin issue, look at the stats from other years if you are into stats.

 

[Benjamin]

 

[Quo]

Always. 9 games isn't always. Does this speak to a trend over the years?

 

[Milan the God*]

Silfverberg broke his hand in the Ottawa game

 

[MainDotC]

I'm going to re-stream Sens 3rd period at 2nd INT between PHX / EDM...see if I can verify this supposed slash.

 

[INurHome]

I'm going to re-stream Sens 3rd period at 2nd INT between PHX / EDM...see if I can verify this supposed slash.

La Presse is reporting that it was Cowen who slashed Silf.

And now video courtesy of James Gordon's twitter. Link

Looks like Silf got hit by the golden bee bee.
C

 

[Tampacuseforever]

There was no slash his stick rode up the shaft of Silvf stick when he was body checking him.

 

[StefanW]

5 on 5, Spezza is not effective.

This frustrates me, because I really wish people would take the time to understand the nuances of such stats before they use them. Please go to the team tab, select the Pens, and hit the "update player stats." That Crosby fellow sure is pretty terrible defensively 5 on 5 as well. Pitts better trade him off for a bag of pucks while they can. We can offer up MacArthur for him, but that would clearly be an overpayment based on their relative numbers.

Serious though, it is common for top offensive players to have less than stellar D numbers. Their job is to stir the pot offensively, to be creative, and to take chances that less skilled guys would never take. Spezza's D stats will never be great, and he will always lead the team in giveaways. You can say the exact same thing about other plugs like Crosby and Ovechkin. The worst thing I would say about Spezza right now is that he got off to a bit of a slow start. But whatever, because he is now putting up points and we are barely 10% of the way through the season.

 

[WhiteLight*]

This frustrates me, because I really wish people would take the time to understand the nuances of such stats before they use them. Please go to the team tab, select the Pens, and hit the "update player stats." That Crosby fellow sure is pretty terrible defensively 5 on 5 as well. Pitts better trade him off for a bag of pucks while they can. We can offer up MacArthur for him, but that would clearly be an overpayment based on their relative numbers.

Serious though, it is common for top offensive players to have less than stellar D numbers. Their job is to stir the pot offensively, to be creative, and to take chances that less skilled guys would never take. Spezza's D stats will never be great, and he will always lead the team in giveaways. You can say the exact same thing about other plugs like Crosby and Ovechkin. The worst thing I would say about Spezza right now is that he got off to a bit of a slow start. But whatever, because he is now putting up points and we are barely 10% of the way through the season.

Crosby isn't usually even close to that bad though. He's been uncharacteristically bad. His number last year is literally half of what it is this year.

Spezza may be a little worse than usual this season, but really, it's classic Spezza.



Also, Crosby scores like 2 points per game. He makes up for the goals he gives up and then some. Spezza hasn't so far.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Pretty big differences in a hockey player and that's not just me that's everyone.

'If Theo Fleury were tall he'd be like malkin' ah what

playing style, that's all I'm saying. He doesn't play a skill game like small guys do. At least he isn't right now.

His production the past 2 seasons prior were top 6 player moving up and transitioning to the NHL. He gets icetime like a 3rd and 4th liner with very little powerplay on a team that doesn't score very much. How do you suggest he produces?

He's been playing in the top 6 all year, and with Spezza, and getting PP time.

Sucks because I accidentally closed my window so I'm not going to retype it all but shortly :

Realistically, only time and money can help

We started drafting well again in 2008. Look at our 2008 and 2009 drafts... It is just starting to pay off so give it a bit more time and let them grow as pro hockey players and wait for other recent draftees to make an impact... If Karlsson, Silfverberg, Lehner, Wiercioch, Cowen, Pageau, Zibanejad, etc are an indication of what this drafting team can do, be hopeful for our other prospects too

Hopefully, ownership is ready to spend more when it will be wise to do so.

Do the Sens have all the piece they need in the organization right now? If not, can they get it through late picks in the draft and through free agency?

I see the Sens needing more top end talent. The rebuilding isn't complete I don't think. Another 2011-like purge may be needed.


Also, the Ryan trade. If the team is at the stage where you say it is, that was not a good idea. That's a trade you make when you're ready to compete or the Cup. Not when you're hoping to be a bubble playoff team.

And that's why I'm freaking out. This team is supposed to be a Cup contender. That was the plan. Otherwise that trade makes no sense and was very stupid on Murray's part.

But, it's quite evident that this team is NOT a Cup contender. Not with the old guard still having prominent roles like they do. Ryan's been good, but it wasn't the right time to pull of that trade. Like I said, you make that trade when you think Ryan is your missing piece, not when you're still in the grooming/building phase.

It was more a joke than anything, but had to do with your Nuge mancrush and "way of thinking, NHL management wise"

Also, it took you a while to like Turris, be honest. You were calling it an horrible trade for a while. I did the same when the trade happened (was a big Rundblad fan like most), but I was guilty of reacting too quickly (not in my habits though)... A few hours after with some research and thinking, I was warming up to the trade. Once I saw Turris play a few games for the Sens, I knew we had a gem

Nuge is awesome. The Oilers are not picking the right players, not addressing their needs (defense and goalie), can't hire a good coach.


I liked Turris as soon as he got here and saw what he could do. Pretty sure it wasn't a while. 10 games in I was sold iirc.

 

[DrEasy]

Individually, there's nothing wrong with Spezza. We all remember he was the #1 C that took us to the Stanley Cup finals. The issue is surrounding him with players who can work well with him: a finisher he can dish the puck to, and someone smart who can be defensively responsible. That's what he had in 2007, in spades. Now he has a wonky back, and with Michalek and Greening/Conacher, we just can't expect the same level of performance. He has actually adapted well to his new role with those type of players. He shoots, he scores! Maybe he is not worth $7M anymore, but finding a #1 C isn't easy, and having him is better than not having one.

Last year's team, without Spezza and Karlsson, had one thing going for it, and that was the simple type of play. No surprise moves, no gambles, just plain solid boring defensively responsible play from everyone. It must have been the easiest team to coach and to coordinate. Now we need to adapt to these creative types again, and leverage their presence.

 

[sens613]

playing style, that's all I'm saying. He doesn't play a skill game like small guys do. At least he isn't right now.



He's been playing in the top 6 all year, and with Spezza, and getting PP time.



Do the Sens have all the piece they need in the organization right now? If not, can they get it through late picks in the draft and through free agency?

I see the Sens needing more top end talent. The rebuilding isn't complete I don't think. Another 2011-like purge may be needed.


Also, the Ryan trade. If the team is at the stage where you say it is, that was not a good idea. That's a trade you make when you're ready to compete or the Cup. Not when you're hoping to be a bubble playoff team.

And that's why I'm freaking out. This team is supposed to be a Cup contender. That was the plan. Otherwise that trade makes no sense and was very stupid on Murray's part.

But, it's quite evident that this team is NOT a Cup contender. Not with the old guard still having prominent roles like they do. Ryan's been good, but it wasn't the right time to pull of that trade. Like I said, you make that trade when you think Ryan is your missing piece, not when you're still in the grooming/building phase.



Nuge is awesome. The Oilers are not picking the right players, not addressing their needs (defense and goalie), can't hire a good coach.


I liked Turris as soon as he got here and saw what he could do. Pretty sure it wasn't a while. 10 games in I was sold iirc.

You make your team better always. Not only when you think you can win a cup. Adding ryan fron a surplus of our young players helps this year and should help set a winning environment for our younger future core players.
.
Even if Murray thought it brought us from a bubble team who may miss the playoffs to a second round team who is on a budget that is huge. The added revenue if he is right will help us add top end talent down the line.

So ya improving your team while trading fron a position of strength , creating better environment for our future core and adding money to a franchise that desperately needs it... not stupid at all.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Well, what we need coming down the pipeline are elite prospects. Guys who project as first line/pairs players. The first rounder we gave up in the trade would have to be a top 3 pick to provide that. Even if this team misses the playoffs, there's no way our pick will be high enough in the draft order to add anything significant to our stable of prospects (if we had not made the trade).

Only way the Ryan trade would be considered a loss is if he leaves after this contract. Even then, we can make a trade to acquire some assets for him before that happens.

 

[DrEasy]

You make your team better always. Not only when you think you can win a cup. Adding ryan fron a surplus of our young players helps this year and should help set a winning environment for our younger future core players.
.
Even if Murray thought it brought us from a bubble team who may miss the playoffs to a second round team who is on a budget that is huge. The added revenue if he is right will help us add top end talent down the line.

So ya improving your team while trading fron a position of strength , creating better environment for our future core and adding money to a franchise that desperately needs it... not stupid at all.

The goal should always be to make the playoffs. You never know what happens after you do. There's always injuries, momentum and other factors that might suddenly make a winner out of an underdog.

If you keep tanking and rebuilding you might lose your fans and the team altogether.

 

[Sensinitis]

Also, the Ryan trade. If the team is at the stage where you say it is, that was not a good idea. That's a trade you make when you're ready to compete or the Cup. Not when you're hoping to be a bubble playoff team.

And that's why I'm freaking out. This team is supposed to be a Cup contender. That was the plan. Otherwise that trade makes no sense and was very stupid on Murray's part.

That's a trade that you make 10 times out of 10, period.

Just to be clear.

 

[Micklebot]

Crosby isn't usually even close to that bad though. He's been uncharacteristically bad. His number last year is literally half of what it is this year.

Spezza may be a little worse than usual this season, but really, it's classic Spezza.



Also, Crosby scores like 2 points per game. He makes up for the goals he gives up and then some. Spezza hasn't so far.

Nice piece of fiction there; fact is Spezza's GA/20 is 40% higher than his average over the last 6 years, which is to say, clearly not classic Spezza. Add to that, Spezza started the season playing through a minor groin issue, and you know that his play is not the norm.

Not to mention how ridiculous it is to use Goals based stats with 110 mins of data; there is pretty much no predictive value in using this small a sample.

 

[Scrub*]

Remember when mak said Giroux was a top 10 centre?

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Remember when mak said Giroux was a top 10 centre?

He's a top 5 center.

 

[Scrub*]

He's a top 5 center.

lmaoooo

 

[Xspyrit]

Sorry for the delay, finally able to catch up (aka not much sleep)

Do the Sens have all the piece they need in the organization right now? If not, can they get it through late picks in the draft and through free agency?

Who knows? But we have many quality and possible quality pieces... Karlsson, Ceci, Cowen, Wiercioch, Wikstrand, Methot, Anderson, Lehner, Driedger, Spezza, Ryan, Michalek, Turris, Conacher, Zibanejad, MacArthur, Stone, Lazar, Puempel, Prince, Petersson, Da Costa, etc.

So much potential there and all are still very young (except Spezza and Anderson who are very old)

Free agency is not easy for Ottawa so we might fill holes with trades once again (see Turris, Methot, Ryan, Conacher...)

I see the Sens needing more top end talent. The rebuilding isn't complete I don't think. Another 2011-like purge may be needed.

I see the Sens with a bunch of 1st rounders in the line-up and many still developing. Several top-6 overall picks too (Spezza, Ryan, Turris, Zibanejad, Michalek, Phillips). One could argue that Karlsson is easily worth a top-5 pick and that Lehner could have been a top-10 pick. Cowen was a 9th overall pick too

So in terms in top-end talent... I think that Spezza, Ryan, Turris, Zibanejad, Karlsson and Lehner is a good start

Others (like Ceci, Cowen or Lazar for example) could find their way in that group too

Also, the Ryan trade. If the team is at the stage where you say it is, that was not a good idea. That's a trade you make when you're ready to compete or the Cup. Not when you're hoping to be a bubble playoff team.

Why not bring him earlier so he can "grow" with the team? Bobby Ryan is only 26 years old. Waiting longer and then watch another team grab him (Ducks had/wanted to trade him), what does it achieve exactly?

And that's why I'm freaking out. This team is supposed to be a Cup contender. That was the plan. Otherwise that trade makes no sense and was very stupid on Murray's part.

The team is supposed to be a Cup Contender in the year 3 of its rebuild? Sens fans really have realistic expectations when you think of it

Only problem is your read on the situation if you think the trade is too early... What's the problem? We pay Ryan too much? He makes 5.1

You're talking like we traded 3 young pieces for an old player in his last few years in the NHL. Again, Ryan is 26 y/o. Plan is to sign him long-term of course.

But, it's quite evident that this team is NOT a Cup contender. Not with the old guard still having prominent roles like they do. Ryan's been good, but it wasn't the right time to pull of that trade. Like I said, you make that trade when you think Ryan is your missing piece, not when you're still in the grooming/building phase.

Repeating doesn't make it more right than the first time.

And "the old guard still having prominent roles like they do"... Are we talking about Phillips and Neil? Because they are the only 2 that I could see fitting the bill... and Neil is 10th in ice-time per game among forwards. Hardly a "prominent role" from an objective standpoint. Phillips is 3rd among D-men (and that's too high for him at this point in time) but that's because Cowen and Wiercioch haven't surpassed him yet.

I liked Turris as soon as he got here and saw what he could do. Pretty sure it wasn't a while. 10 games in I was sold iirc.

Well, Turris threads I have read don't say the same things... You bashed Murray/the trade for a while.