Duchene vs Stastny vs O'Reilly

[The Joker*]

How big of a mistake was it letting Stastny OR O'Reilly leave but keep Duchene?

Duchene and MacKinnon are redundant. Two all offense centers just don't work.

We desperately need a strong two way center. We thought Soderberg was that guy but he looks more like a nice #3 centerman.

I love Duchene. Always have but I think we would be a much better team if we had decided to pay ONE OF Stastny or O'Reilly and deal Duchene.

Landeskog - Stastny - Tanquay
Raantanen - MacKinnon - Iginla
Comeau - Soderberg - Grigorenko
McLeod - Mitchell - Skille

Click to read more...

 

[InjuredChoker]

this is going to be fun one. 'fun' one.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

Keeping Duchene was not a mistake

 

[tigervixxxen]

It was not a choice. It's not so simple to boil it down to "choose" who to keep, they aren't trading cards or pairs of shoes. You have to have a guy willing to sign a contract for one. You have to factor in what a guy is going to cost as well. If guys don't want to stay here then they don't. MacKinnon and Duchene aren't the same players. The 20 year old is well on his way to becoming a capable two way center. I know it's the cool thing to pile on Duchene right now but this team is lucky to have him as the 2C. Plus I'm not going to moan about losing O'Reilly, I'm pretty damn pleased we have Zadorov.

 

[AnimalMother73]

Of the 3 Duchene has the most overall talent and is paid less than the other two. Mackinnon is too young to judge if he won't become more effectively defensively.

 

[tucker3434]

Yeah it wasn't a choice. Duchene signed a (solid for everyone) deal for $6m. ROR didn't. Duchene at $6m>>>>>>>>>ROR at $7.5. If they had both signed long term at $6m, I would have picked ROR. I prefer his game. But oh well. It was never an option.

 

[The Joker*]

It was not a choice. It's not so simple to boil it down to "choose" who to keep, they aren't trading cards or pairs of shoes. You have to have a guy willing to sign a contract for one. You have to factor in what a guy is going to cost as well. If guys don't want to stay here then they don't. MacKinnon and Duchene aren't the same players. The 20 year old is well on his way to becoming a capable two way center. I know it's the cool thing to pile on Duchene right now but this team is lucky to have him as the 2C. Plus I'm not going to moan about losing O'Reilly, I'm pretty damn pleased we have Zadorov.

By all accounts Stastny was willing to sign here but we didn't pony up.

Also, take into account the package we could have got for Duchene. It would probably be more than what we got for O'Reilly and we might be a harder team to play against with Stastny.

For the record, I would choose Stastny out of the 3.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Pony up the 7m, yeah that was a good decision. Asking for 7m also falls under the "I want to stay but don't really want to stay" umbrella.

I know its the cool thing to deem Duchene worthless right now too. So he's not even worth his contract. Got it.

These are humans as well and play on a team with other humans. Creating a culture where guys like Varly, Landy and EJ have bought in to the structure has some value too.

 

[The Joker*]

Pony up the 7m, yeah that was a good decision. Asking for 7m also falls under the "I want to stay but don't really want to stay" umbrella.

I know its the cool thing to deem Duchene worthless right now too. So he's not even worth his contract. Got it.

These are humans as well and play on a team with other humans. Creating a culture where guys like Varly, Landy and EJ have bought in to the structure has some value too.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a Duchene fan. Always have been. I'm just saying from a hockey standpoint we might have been better keeping Stastny and maybe O'Reilly over Duchene. Especially if we might have got a bigger return for Duchene.

 

[AslanRH]

Probably gonna get lumped in with the "it's the cool thing" or "overreaction" title , but not everyone is just now questioning Duchene's role and impact for the team.

I think back to some of the many bits of critique/mockery lobbed at Kessel on here over the years. The guy was producing at a very good and consistent rate with an anchor of a linemate, didn't result in team success, questionable 2 way play, questionable decision making, and on and on. Yet he was laughable. Many didn't want him anywhere near this team even for free.

I don't believe there was ever a real choice between Dutch and ROR or Stastny. Maybe at the time a choice between ROR and Stastny, but not either against Duchene. I think the Avs were very aware of ROR's contract desires early in 2014-2015 and I think they were also aware Stastny would not sign under the Duchene cap or Salary Structure (whatever you choose to call it). I think the 11th hour offer to Stastny was merely a formality by that point.

All that is history now though and can't be rolled back, so the question should be, who is Duchene and how will he fit going forward? Is he a leader who can carry the team when needed? Can he be the Sakic to MacK's Foppa so to speak? Can/should he learn to adjust his play to the strengths of his linemates or do the Avs have to keep hoping they will find that magic combo (Rantanen, Radulov, whatever) since none so far for one reason or another have endured or worked at all (PAP, Iggy, ROR, Flash, Mueller, McGinn)?

 

[Iceberg]

It was not a choice?? WTF!?!?

Sakic is paid to make the choices, or decisions if you prefer, and some are simply harder to make.

He chose not to trade Stastny during the season, than decided he was not worth the money and let him go.

Then he decided that it was better to trade ROR, he was not worth 7.5M on Sakic's eyes or he wanted to keep his salary structure, but that's his decision, his choice.

Sakic is making choices all the time, and we'll have to live with them, for better or worse.

 

[Avsboy]

Something is wrong with Duchene right now.

 

[RockLobster]

Pony up the 7m, yeah that was a good decision. Asking for 7m also falls under the "I want to stay but don't really want to stay" umbrella.

I know its the cool thing to deem Duchene worthless right now too. So he's not even worth his contract. Got it.

These are humans as well and play on a team with other humans. Creating a culture where guys like Varly, Landy and EJ have bought in to the structure has some value too.

A bit of hyperbole here, no?

Duchene carries higher expectations because of his obvious skill set, but he doesn't get a free pass from criticism just because he was a fervent fan of the team growing up. Through 4 games he's not played anywhere close to his ability, and like I've said time and time again, he's still exhibiting many of the flaws in his game that were present when he was a rookie...with no glimmers/glimpses of any improvement on them.

He needs to play better, plain and simple.

 

[tigervixxxen]

So then don't use the word choice if it bothers you too much. My point is its not a matter of deciding which toy to take back to the store, there's a lot more that goes into it including contract amounts, commitment, timing, impact on teammates, community involvement, salary structure, offensive production, role, usage, opportunity cost, future costs, etc, etc.

 

[tigervixxxen]

get a free pass from criticism just because he was a fervent fan of the team growing up.

Would say this is hyperbole too. Half the team grew up a fan of the franchise, its hardly something unique at this point.

Of course its fair to question him but to the extent and degree it has been this year many people are acting like he's worthless. Comments that it wouldn't matter if he was in the lineup or not so he might as well be injured. Y'all can't act like its not getting over the top. EJ just got a ton of money and he had a ****** game yesterday and not a peep.

 

[Bonzai12]

how many years until fans move on from ROR and Stastny?

 

[RockLobster]

Would say this is hyperbole too. Half the team grew up a fan of the franchise, its hardly something unique at this point.

Of course its fair to question him but to the extent and degree it has been this year many people are acting like he's worthless. Comments that it wouldn't matter if he was in the lineup or not so he might as well be injured. Y'all can't act like its not getting over the top. EJ just got a ton of money and he had a ****** game yesterday and not a peep.

I wouldn't call what I said hyperbole. The NHL, and the Avs, have played up his fandom of the team ever since he was drafted. How many times have we seen the pictures of him growing up with all that Avs gear? To me, it's different than just seeing 1 picture of a player (EJ, for example) in a jersey and that's it. A lot has been made of him being a "hardcore fan" when he was younger.

And I believe I saw a number of EJ criticisms in the GDT last night, as well there should have been because he wasn't anything too special either.

 

[Avs71]

Would say this is hyperbole too. Half the team grew up a fan of the franchise, its hardly something unique at this point.

Of course its fair to question him but to the extent and degree it has been this year many people are acting like he's worthless. Comments that it wouldn't matter if he was in the lineup or not so he might as well be injured. Y'all can't act like its not getting over the top. EJ just got a ton of money and he had a ****** game yesterday and not a peep.

To be fair though, EJ was ripped on more than any other player on the Avs for the last few seasons before he turned it around under Roy. He's earned having a bad game or two, given how he has played the last 2 seasons. Just like Varly. Duchene is coming off a bad year, heading into what looks like another bad season.

The Avs kept the right one. They also kept the only one getting paid market value.

If there was a move I would undo, it would be letting Stastny walk and trading/signing Stuart/Iginla. Those two combined make more than Stastny at 7 million. Of course MacKinnon probably wouldn't be breaking out at center right now, but Stastny would be a nice luxury to have again.

 

[Trinstin]

Hypothetically speaking, IF we could have known we could keep one of RoR or Stastny (at a price that fits) then yes its easy to suspect that we could have been a better team with whatever Duchene brought back + stas/ror.

However we don't know how good Duchene will be for this franchise in the future and while its not often, it is possible for players to get better with age, St. Louis and Sakic are good examples. Duchene hasn't had any career set back injuries like say Crosby has... I just don't think it would be wise to say that he won't hit a consistent level we all want.

 

[tigervixxxen]

For me I take into account the contract that Duchene was willing to take to help build the franchise (I also give the same courtesy to Landy, EJ and Varly for doing the same). Its not because he's a fan, its because he's willing to make a sacrifice for the team. Also until someone else does it Duchene has also shown that he has the most offensive capability on this team. Until someone else hits 70 or goes PPG then he still holds that high mark. MacK might pass him but it hasn't happened yet. When this team struggles to score goals people are going to moan that there isn't enough skill in the top 6. Take Duchene out leaves a big hole in that regard that neither Stastny nor O'Reilly would entirely make up for and then factor in their higher salaries on top of that. That's where I'm coming from. If other people value how more well rounded Stastny and O'Reilly are then fine but I don't think swapping them out makes this team better today. Its also impossible to have made a "choice" between them when Duchene signed a contract one/two years before the others left.

 

[AslanRH]

It was not a choice?? WTF!?!?

Sakic is paid to make the choices, or decisions if you prefer, and some are simply harder to make.

He chose not to trade Stastny during the season, than decided he was not worth the money and let him go.

Then he decided that it was better to trade ROR, he was not worth 7.5M on Sakic's eyes or he wanted to keep his salary structure, but that's his decision, his choice.

Sakic is making choices all the time, and we'll have to live with them, for better or worse.

It was not a choice between one of ROR or Dutch or Stastny which is the question.

Of course each individual situation involved a choice, but Sakic was not necessarily choosing one over the others. Circumstances helped dictate how things played out.

If it was as simple as you get to keep only 1 of the above players in the same season (not over the course of 2) contracts etc being equal, then that would be a different discussion.

 

[Trinstin]

For me I take into account the contract that Duchene was willing to take to help build the franchise

My sentiments too. Duchene could have easily asked for more like RoR but he chose to take a discount. Its just 1.5 million dollars. Thats a depth player, money we could splurge on a top free agent, cap space we could retain in a trade for a better player... Thanks to players like Dutchy setting that bar, instead of players like Stastny setting a higher one, we have freedom to do things.

 

[Taak19]

Of the 3 Duchene has the most overall talent and is paid less than the other two. Mackinnon is too young to judge if he won't become more effectively defensively.

MacKinnon has been way better defensively this year.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

What a short-sighted post. We Avs fans sure love hot takes don't we?

Honestly I don't think you guys could brew up a more toxic situation than the one being suggested in the OP. Trading Duchene instead of the other guys back then would have destroyed the lockerroom and just been stupid, stupid, stupid.

Just give it a rest with the hot takes, it's 4 games and we're .500.



Pathetic

 

[MonsterMack]

A bit of hyperbole here, no?

Duchene carries higher expectations because of his obvious skill set, but he doesn't get a free pass from criticism just because he was a fervent fan of the team growing up. Through 4 games he's not played anywhere close to his ability, and like I've said time and time again, he's still exhibiting many of the flaws in his game that were present when he was a rookie...with no glimmers/glimpses of any improvement on them.

He needs to play better, plain and simple.

Why is this said over and over again? He clearly doesn't get a free pass on this board.