TSN Radio Dreger: Jonathan Bernier could play himself onto 2014 Olympic team.

[Daisy Jane]

i have a feeling, if Cam Ward is healthy, he's most likely the starter, and then most likely Price/Luongo as the backup, and Holtby as "Olympic Experience"

 

[zeke]

Canadian Goalies


2012-13 (min 10gms)

1. C.Crawford: 30gms, .926sv%
2. J.Reimer: 33gms, .924
3. J.Labarbera: 15gms, .923
4. R.Emery: 22gms, .922
5. J.Bernier: 14gms, .922
6. D.Dubnyk: 38gms, .921
7. B.Holtby: 36gms, .920
8. M.Fleury: 33gms, .916
9. S.Mason: 20gms, .916
10. B.Scrivens: 20gms, .915
11. M.Smith: 34gms, .910
12. J.Giguere: 18gms, .908
13. C.Ward: 17gms, .908
14. B.Elliott: 24gms, .907
15. R.Luongo: 20gms, .907
16. D.Ellis: 19gms, .906
17. C.Price: 39gms, .905
18. J.Allen: 15gms, .905
19. J.McDonald: 21gms, .902
20. M.Brodeur: 20gms, .901


Last 2yrs (min. 25gms)

1. B.Elliott: 62gms, .929
2. M.Smith: 101gms, .924
3. B.Holtby: 43gms, .920
4. D.Dubnyk: 85gms, .917
5. J.Labarbera: 34gms, .917
6. R.Luongo: 75gms, .916
7. J.Giguere: 50gms, .915
8. M.Fleury: 100gms, .914
9. C.Ward: 85gms, .914
10. J.Harding: 39gms, .914
11. J.Bernier: 30gms, .914
12. C.Price: 104gms, .912
13. J.Theodore: 68gms, .912
14. J.Reimer: 67gms, .912
15. C.Crawford: 87gms, .911
16. C.Sanford: 36gms, .911
17. B.Scrivens: 32gms, .910
18. R.Emery: 55gms, .908
19. J.McDonald: 35gms, .906
20. M.Brodeur: 88gms, .905
21. S.Mason: 66gms, .900


Last 3yrs (min. 45gms)

1. B.Holtby: 57gms, .923
2. R.Luongo: 135gms, .922
3. M.Smith: 123gms, .920
4. C.Ward: 159gms, .918
5. C.Price: 176gms, .917
6. D.Dubnyk: 120gms, .917
7. M.Fleury: 165gms, .916
8. J.Reimer: 104gms, .915
9. J.Labarbera: 51gms, .914
10. C.Crawford: 144gms, .913
11. J.Theodore: 100gms, .913
12. J.Bernier: 55gms, .913
13. R.Emery: 65gms, .911
14. B.Elliott: 117gms, .910
15. J.Giguere: 83gms, .909
16. J.MacDonald: 50gms, .909
17. M.Brodeur: 144gms, .905
18. D.Ellis: 73gms, .902
19. S.Mason: 120gms, .901


Career (min. 55gms)

1. B.Holtby: 57gms, .923
2. R.Luongo: 747gms, .919
3. C.Price: 310gms, .915
4. J.Harding: 122gms, .915
5. J.Reimer: 104gms, .915
6. M.Brodeur: 1220gms, .913
7. J.Giguere: 575gms, .913
8. M.Smith: 263gms, .913
9. C.Crawford: 152gms, .913
10. D.Dubnyk: 139gms, .913
11. J.Bernier: 62gms, .912
12. M.Biron: 506gms, .911
13. M.Fleury: 467gms, .910
14. C.Ward: 431gms, .910
15. J.Theodore: 648gms, .909
16. B.Elliott: 204gms, .909
17. R.Emery: 228gms, .908
18. D.Ellis: 184gms, .908
19. J.Labarbera: 175gms, .908
20. S.Mason: 239gms, .905
21. J.MacDonald: 122gms, .903

 

[zeke]

I don't think so. if bernier wins the job and helps the leafs win many games, I don't think you'll be very happy about that. you'd prefer he fails and proves you right. you've been saying for a long time that he's overhyped and not that good. you'd like to be right about that.

he's had pretty good results. everything about his resume to date is positive.

results or reputation or whatever, who cares? they'll compete for the job and Carlyle will go with the guy he thinks gives the best chance to win on any given night.

I will be happier than anyone here if Bernier succeeds. I was happier than anyone when grabo and McClement and franson proved me wrong, and I will be again if Bernier does it too.

Unfortunately, we have very near, dear history to show us that this organization has often favored "more talented" goalies over Reimer, and have sunk seasons because of it. (ad not just us - the Bryzgalov/Bobrovksy fiasco in Philly is another warning). Meanwhile, as soon as Reimer was put in net, the Leafs have won at a 100pt pace, like magic.

The truth is, you are desperately hoping beyond hope that Bernier outplays Reimer, after never having given Reimer credit for anything despite the leafs' instant turnaround with him net, after you spent years deriding him as a prospect and denying he should play over the likes of Gus, Jiggy, and Vesa.

Don't project your petty weaknesses onto me.

 

[dimi78]

Fully agree^^^. I cant believe leafs fans. Bernier have alot of upside but guys he still gotta prove it. Reimer have proved himself as a number 1 goaltender for now so dont take credit away from him for his outstanding performance last season.

That's the issue. People are giving Reimer credit for something he hasn't proved himself. Fact that people constantly ignore and just look at numbers Reimer gets rattled kind of easily especially when he gets beat with a shot he should have saved yet for some reason it's viewed as he's a battler and mentally tough. He's inconsistent in making key saves at key moments of games which is really what a true #1 provides everything else from numbers, stats are nothing more but uncontrolled variables that lure people away from the truth. He has issues with rebounds and his glove has been well talked about toped with his inconsistencies doesn't make him a reliable #1 as much as people want to deny it.

Game 7 the last 10 minutes Reimer was clearly rattled once Boston made it 4-2 is why Bernier was brought in. He got rattled which lead to Carlyle making hints at the exit conference of upgrading in goal. They couldn't land an upgrade so they went and traded for the next best thing in adding depth to that position for a goalie that can potentially up grade that position. They've set up a may the best man win scenario in due to not believing in Reimer.

The Leaf brass may say the politically correct things on this matter Bernier was brought in cause they don't feel comfortable with Reimer and weren't going to sit on there morals and weight for a disaster to happen like 2 years ago before acting.

They're expecting Bernier to win the job that's why they traded for him but they wont come out and say it.

 

[Warden of the North]

That's the issue. People are giving Reimer credit for something he hasn't proved himself. Fact that people constantly ignore and just look at numbers Reimer gets rattled kind of easily especially when he gets beat with a shot he should have saved yet for some reason it's viewed as he's a battler and mentally tough. He's inconsistent in making key saves at key moments of games which is really what a true #1 provides everything else from numbers, stats are nothing more but uncontrolled variables that lure people away from the truth. He has issues with rebounds and his glove has been well talked about toped with his inconsistencies doesn't make him a reliable #1 as much as people want to deny it.

Gave 7 the last 10 minutes Reimer was clearly rattled once Boston made it 4-2 is why Bernier was brought in. He got rattled which lead to Carlyle making hints at the exit conference of upgrading in goal. They couldn't land an upgrade so they went and traded for the next best thing in adding depth to that position for a goalie that can potentially up grade that position. They've set up a may the best man win scenario in due to not believing in Reimer.

The Leaf brass may say the politically correct things on this matter Bernier was brought in cause they don't feel comfortable with Reimer and weren't going to sit on there morals and weight for a disaster to happen like 2 years ago before acting.

They're expecting Bernier to win the job that's why they traded for him but they wont come out and say it.

People are giving Bernier credit for proving even less then Reimer. One of our illustrious radio stations today said he was a top 15 goalie in the NHL right now.

 

[Duke Silver]

I will be happier than anyone here if Bernier succeeds. I was happier than anyone when grabo and McClement and franson proved me wrong, and I will be again if Bernier does it too.

Unfortunately, we have very near, dear history to show us that this organization has often favored "more talented" goalies over Reimer, and have sunk seasons because of it. (ad not just us - the Bryzgalov/Bobrovksy fiasco in Philly is another warning). Meanwhile, as soon as Reimer was put in net, the Leafs have won at a 100pt pace, like magic.

I don't think it was so much a matter of "more talented" than it was "more proven". Toskala was never on the same team as Reimer, Giguere was unarguably a more proven goaltender than JR and Gustavsson had more than 60 NHL games to his credit before Reimer came in midway through 2010-11 and took over. In 2011-12, Reimer suffered his concussion early on and never quite seemed himself when he returned, which lead to him splitting the net with Gustavsson.

 

[dimi78]

People are giving Bernier credit for proving even less then Reimer. One of our illustrious radio stations today said he was a top 15 goalie in the NHL right now.

Media likes to stir the pot however if you put it into a context of talent and ability are they wrong? I can't answer that question neither can the media but there is something to say for him being so highly touted.

Bernier hasn't necessarily proved less cause he's played less, his abilities and talents clearly have been showed when he did play which is why he's been highly touted for some time now. It could be viewed that Reimer has proved that he is what he is with the opportunity he's had and that's something nobody likes to think of that he's good at times but not good enough to commit to him.

 

[Damisoph]

No, you're right, I'll take the opinion of "IceWookie" over Dave Nonis, my bad.

I lol'd. It's too funny how some people think they have all the answers and are smarter than professionals that do the job for a living.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

I really want Bernier to turn out to be the next STUD Canadian goalie.

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

I lol'd. It's too funny how some people think they have all the answers and are smarter than professionals that do the job for a living.

Soooo why are you reading this forum, then? It's literally filled with nothing but the opinions of People Who Are Not Dave Nonis.

Oh wait, it's just the opinions you disagree with that aren't valid, nvm.

And to address the topic: Dreger is never above putting in a good word for cousin Dave's handiwork. Nonis got the coveted Dreger boost when he was in Van, now he's getting it in Toronto.

 

[highslot]

Sums up the offseason on this board, good job guys.

PLAY THA KIDZZZZ!

Seriously i'm all for drafting and developing but there are just some ridiculous fans who get mad no matter what move is made. Seems like any signing or trade there are complaints and people who just want to promote within even if there's nothing there.

If we made no moves and only drafted our team of active players would look like this(a thread I created on the main board)

Tlusty-Kadri-Kulemin
Steen-Bozak-Frattin
Stalberg-Antropov-Boyes
Ponikarovsky-Komarov-Hayes

Gunnarsson-Schenn
Colaicovo-White
Kaberle-Stralman
Holzer

Rask
Reimer


Yes it doesn't include picks we traded away but that's not to say we'd select the same players used with those picks anyways.

Not too impressive is it?

it's not horrible and there is excellent speed as well as snipers.
i think we could have made 8th with the team if it was arranged like i did at the bottom.

however, no kessel would mean we have seguin and hamilton based on drafting position, no? yes, with the second overall and with hall taken, we would have selected seguin. that's a no brainer. as well as hamilton in the other year. otherwise, you'd have to include prospects in that draft position, but #2 is a pretty obvious pick.

we would have one of the best 3rd lines in terms of offense and the 4th is competitive and annoying.

we would have tukka rask in net as well as reimer. how long did brodeur get nj into playoffs when they really didn't deserve it?
so i would arrange it like this:


Steen-Kadri-Boyes
tlusty-seguin-kulemin
Stalberg-bozak-frattin
komorov-stajan- d'amigo

poni/andropov/wellwood as sitting out or traded.

*(leivo, biggs, brown, verhege, mcgregg in the wings).

hamilton-coco
Schenn-stralman
gunnerson-White

Kaberle

rask
reimer

*(percy, finn, reilly, granberg in the wings).

so no: kessel, jvr, lupul gardiner,phaneuf

so yes: rask, seguin, hamilton, stralberg, stralman, frattin, coco.

 

[Damisoph]

Soooo why are you reading this forum, then? It's literally filled with nothing but the opinions of People Who Are Not Dave Nonis.

Oh wait, it's just the opinions you disagree with that aren't valid, nvm.

Some opinions are more asinine and obnoxious than others. No offense.

 

[zeke]

I don't think it was so much a matter of "more talented" than it was "more proven".

Meh, gus wasn't proven. Reimer ws also forced into the echl so the "more talented" pogge could be the ahl starter.

Toskala was never on the same team as Reimer,

He should have been. Toskala was sinking yet another leafs season with a laughable .874, and gus was helping him with a .902, while reimer was killing it with a .925 in the ahl, but not even getting a sniff as the season went down the tubes thanks to goaltending. Even worse is that reims had to battle for ahl playing tine with joey fricken mcdonald and his .893 ahl sv%....and then when the big club needed a third stringer they called up mcdonald. Hilarious.

And to cap it all off, they then traded fir a $6m 35yr old mediocre backup goalie to start, and to mentor the great gusto, and bury reimer for the forseeable future.

Finally after all those "more talented" goalies flopped, reimer came in (thanks only to injury though) and took over right away, and would have led that team to the playoffs with a little more tim. He had an injured sophomore year, then led the leafs to the promised land in his 3rd year....and then they decide that after all that idiocy, reimer still isn't good enough....so they go out and pay a significant price for a less proven goalie with lesser performance.

 

[AvroArrow]

Darren Dreger was just on TSN 1050 and said that some very big and powerful NHL people believe that Jonathan Bernier could play himself into that #3 spot on team Canada at the Olympics. It looks like the current possibility as a third goaltender for Canada is Mike Smith. Dreger believes that a lot of people around the NHL see Bernier as a realistic option for the Canadian team if he plays the way they expect him to.

Options in net for Canada:

Roberto Luongo
Carey Price
Mike Smith
Marc-Andre Fleury
Corey Crawford
Cam Ward
Braden Holtby

Luongo - Terrible past season, aging but has won gold previously
Price - Had a HORRIBLE season. If he gets back to his play 2-3 years back he's a lock
Smith - Under rated because he plays for phoenix. I can see him being the no.1 guy
Fleury - Another goalie who had a terrible past season
Crawford - Cup winner BUT with a LOT of help from his players
Holtby - Lots of potential

If Bernier can play average he should get the no.3 spot no problem.
I don't think Luongo can make a comeback, Fleury is too inconsistent.

My picks would be: Smith, Price, Crawford as of now...but Bernier has the potential to steal a spot

 

[Duke Silver]

Meh, gus wasn't proven.

60 games in the NHL is more proven than 0 games in the NHL.

Reimer ws also forced into the echl so the "more talented" pogge could be the ahl starter.

Reimer was 20 years old heading into the 2008-09 season, with average stats in the WHL.

Pogge had 89 games of AHL action to his credit. He was more proven. Reimer hadn't started a single AHL game coming into that season. Yet you suggest the Marlies should have immediately shelved Pogge to give their 20-year-old, unproven, unknown quantity goaltender the starting job?

He should have been. Toskala was sinking yet another leafs season with a laughable .874, and gus was helping him with a .902, while reimer was killing it with a .925 in the ahl, but not even getting a sniff as the season went down the tubes thanks to goaltending. Even worse is that reims had to battle for ahl playing tine with joey fricken mcdonald and his .893 ahl sv%....and then when the big club needed a third stringer they called up mcdonald. Hilarious.

And to cap it all off, they then traded fir a $6m 35yr old mediocre backup goalie to start, and to mentor the great gusto, and bury reimer for the forseeable future.

When you say he should have been on the roster with Toskala, what would you have done? Who would you have moved and when would you have done it?

Toskala's last season with the Leafs was 2009-10. James Reimer was 21 years old and had 3 AHL games to his credit at the beginning of the season.

Joey MacDonald was first recalled on October 10th and demoted on October 29th. At the time of this first recall, Reimer still had only 3 games of AHL experience to speak of. MacDonald was then recalled on November 24th and returned on December 17th. At the time of this second recall, Reimer had just 10 games of AHL experience. Up until that point he had an impressive .927 save % but he still had just 10 GAMES OF AHL EXPERIENCE!!!

Perhaps the Leafs thought it best that they not throw a very green Reimer to the wolves on a laughably bad Leafs team? Perhaps they were worried about ruining another young prospect?

You can argue that the Leafs mismanaged Reimer by sending him to the ECHL in favour of Munro and Engelage, hell I'd agree with that, but you cannot argue that the Leafs mismanaged Reimer by not rushing him to the NHL with such a paltry resume at the professional level at the time.

Finally after all those "more talented" goalies flopped, reimer came in (thanks only to injury though) and took over right away, and would have led that team to the playoffs with a little more tim. He had an injured sophomore year, then led the leafs to the promised land in his 3rd year....and then they decide that after all that idiocy, reimer still isn't good enough....so they go out and pay a significant price for a less proven goalie with lesser performance.

Listen, I like Reimer. But I don't think any of what you just said was a realistic scenario for the Leafs at the time the decision was made. To me it just seems like revisionist history.

I don't see Bernier's acquisition as an indictment of Reimer's capabilities. I see it as a strengthening of the goaltending position. Regardless of how you wish to package Reimer's stats, we have only seen half-seasons from him. We seized the opportunity to add a second goaltender with the potential to become a #1G to our asset base. You may call it unnecessary but I call it sound risk management.

 

[zeke]

There is not a whit of revisionist history in there.

I argued the very same thing at the time, while it was happening.

Your premise that no inexperienced goalie should ever be given a legit shot to start or that eve bad experience trumps performance makes no sense, and is just excuse making.

Pogge was crap for two years in the ahl already, and should never have stood in reimer's way. Reimer should have been fighting for the ahl job, and would have easily won it.

we would have then headed into th 09/10 season with reimer having a solid year of ahl experience under his belt, ready to step in instantly if toskala and gustavsson stunk again.

But even worse, they didn't even hand him the reins to the ahl job...they actually made him back up the "experienced" joey mcdonald and his .893sv%...and when the leafs needed a goalie, joey mac got the call.

So reimer goes through his first 2 pro seasons and only manages to get into 29 ahl games, thanks to pogge and joey mcdonald.

And then you cry that reimer didn't have enough experience, which "forces" us to go trade for a 35yr old $6m backup goalie instead of the youngster who could have easily been in the midst of his second full season dominating the ahl.

And then even worse, in his sophomore year when he doesn't come back in top form right away from his injury, they got back to gus, in the midst of his third crap season, and never guve reimer a real chance to get his starting gig back.

And then, after all this talk of experience, they now go out and trade for an even less experienced goalie.

 

[Duke Silver]

There is not a whit of revisionist history in there.

I argued the very same thing at the time, while it was happening.

You argued back when Toskala was on the team that Reimer should be up playing for the Leafs?

Your premise that no inexperienced goalie should ever be given a legit shot to start or that eve bad experience trumps performance makes no sense, and is just excuse making.

My premise is that goaltenders should not be thrown into the fire with 10 games of professional experience to their name, which is what you were insinuating by criticizing the calling up of MacDonald over Reimer in 2009-10.

Pogge was crap for two years in the ahl already, and should never have stood in reimer's way. Reimer should have been fighting for the ahl job, and would have easily won it.

we would have then headed into th 09/10 season with reimer having a solid year of ahl experience under his belt, ready to step in instantly if toskala and gustavsson stunk again.

Like I said, not debating how we managed Reimer at the AHL level. My qualm is with you saying he should have been in the NHL much earlier.

Again, Reimer started to play in the AHL full-time in 2009-10. He had 3 games experience coming into the 2009-10 season.

But even worse, they didn't even hand him the reins to the ahl job...they actually made him back up the "experienced" joey mcdonald and his .893sv%...and when the leafs needed a goalie, joey mac got the call.

When the Leafs needed a goalie, in October and November of that season, Reimer was two months into his AHL career with 3 and 10 games to his credit on the eve of each recall.

So reimer goes through his first 2 pro seasons and only manages to get into 29 ahl games, thanks to pogge and joey mcdonald.

I thought we were talking about the Leafs not bringing up Reimer quickly enough?

And then you cry that reimer didn't have enough experience, which "forces" us to go trade for a 35yr old $6m backup goalie instead of the youngster who could have easily been in the midst of his second full season dominating the ahl.

Giguere was acquired on January 31, 2010 when Reimer had 11 games of AHL experience to his name. It was a necessary move, and we got rid of Toskala in the process! Win-win.

It wasn't until midway through the next season (2010-11) that Reimer came in. He started the year with 29 games of AHL experience to his name. That's not a level of playing time that inspires confidence, especially when you have a much-more seasoned goaltender in Gustavsson with 60 games at the NHL level who's just putting his health issues behind him and seems to have high upside.

While Reimer was "stuck" in the AHL at the beginning of 2010-11, he was exposed to playing strings of games in a row for the first time in his professional career. He put up some impressive totals which legitimized his choosing over Scrivens for the call-up when injuries occurred.

Who knows if he was NHL-ready at the beginning of that season? Who knows if putting him in the NHL earlier would have ruined him or not?

And then even worse, in his sophomore year when he doesn't come back in top form right away from his injury, they got back to gus, in the midst of his third crap season, and never guve reimer a real chance to get his starting gig back.

I agree that Reimer should have been given a better chance at reclaiming the #1 in his sophomore season (2011-12). I believe the decision to give Gus a lot of starts was one of the things that caused our snowball out of playoff contention. Especially that horrific game Gus played against NJ, which I credit as the beginning of the tailspin. By this point we knew what Gustavsson and Reimer were at the NHL level, and better decisions should have been made.

Yet at the beginning of 2010-11, we didn't. I understand the decision to choose a goalie with 60 games NHL experience over a goalie with 29 games of AHL experience and 0 games NHL experience. We didn't fully know what we had in Reimer at that time.

And then, after all this talk of experience, they now go out and trade for an even less experienced goalie.

Hey if you want to take out being stuck behind one of the best goaltenders in the world for three years on Bernier, be my guest. We didn't give up much to get him, and as of now any worrying about about preferential treatment is pure guesswork.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Reimer is a blocker goalie. He is also damaged goods. His rebound control is not there. His puck handling is not there. His glove hand is not there. He looks big in net, and covers the angle. I am convinced that he doesn't see the puck well. It goes off him and he freezes for a second to get the whistle. We need a better goalie. I love his personality, but we need a better goalie.

 

[SteveV*]

I don't think there is a GM in the league that would take Reimer over Bernier, despite the records, save percentages, etc. That tells us something.... I'm more looking at it like we FINALLY have some depth with the big club and these two will certainly push each other, to the betterment of the team. Good days ahead, and unlike last year, if there is an injury, we won't hold our breathe watching a wounded seal flop around, giving up the best rebounds I've ever seen

 

[Frankie]

I will be happier than anyone here if Bernier succeeds. I was happier than anyone when grabo and McClement and franson proved me wrong, and I will be again if Bernier does it too.

I don't think that's true. you'd much prefer to be proven right. you have been vehement in backing reamer for years now, almost to the point of obsession. I think he means a lot more to you than the team does. I don't think you ever had the same deep feelings about grabo, mcclement, franson, and the others you've been dead wrong about.

Unfortunately, we have very near, dear history to show us that this organization has often favored "more talented" goalies over Reimer, and have sunk seasons because of it. (ad not just us - the Bryzgalov/Bobrovksy fiasco in Philly is another warning). Meanwhile, as soon as Reimer was put in net, the Leafs have won at a 100pt pace, like magic.

what you're actually criticizing here is the tendency (real or perceived) to go with the more proven goalie over the less proven goalie. and what is it you want to do with reimer and bernier? you want to go with the more proven goalie.

The truth is, you are desperately hoping beyond hope that Bernier outplays Reimer, after never having given Reimer credit for anything despite the leafs' instant turnaround with him net, after you spent years deriding him as a prospect and denying he should play over the likes of Gus, Jiggy, and Vesa.

don't think I've had too much to say about reimer over the years. i'm fairly indifferent to him. he's played well at times, not so well at others. I don't particularly like his off-ice personality and demeanor. seems like a great guy, maybe that's why you like him so much, but i'd prefer a goalie with a little more intensity and desire. reimer just doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, but he's been fine to this point.

 

[7even]

I lol'd. It's too funny how some people think they have all the answers and are smarter than professionals that do the job for a living.

Totally agree. We should all just stop posting anything that's not in the full support of Dave Nonis.

 

[inthe6ix]

Seeing a thread with Bernier and the word Olympics is just priceless - only in the 416 would a discussion be made about a relatively unproven goalie who hasn't (yet) won the #1 job on our team and still he's a potential candidate for the three-spot on our Olympic team.

Training camp and pre-season can't come soon enough..

 

[zeke]

You argued back when Toskala was on the team that Reimer should be up playing for the Leafs?

yes. screamed for it, actually. I wanted Reimer/Gus battling it out for the big club. I had no time for Toskala at that point at all.

Though, admittedly, I was much higher on Gus then than I should have been.

My premise is that goaltenders should not be thrown into the fire with 10 games of professional experience to their name, which is what you were insinuating by criticizing the calling up of MacDonald over Reimer in 2009-10.

His lack of professional experience was a direct result of the team neglecting him as a prospect.

Like I said, not debating how we managed Reimer at the AHL level. My qualm is with you saying he should have been in the NHL much earlier.

Again, Reimer started to play in the AHL full-time in 2009-10. He had 3 games experience coming into the 2009-10 season.

When the Leafs needed a goalie, in October and November of that season, Reimer was two months into his AHL career with 3 and 10 games to his credit on the eve of each recall.

Again, he should have been playing in the AHL full time in 2008-09. It's criminal that a prospect as good as him - a top-100 pick that the coaches voted best goalie in his conference in junior - was shunted to the ECHL. that never happens. The fact that it was done just to try and salvage the craptastic Pogge is embarassing.

and I could care less about experience anyways. See: Price, Ward, etc.

I thought we were talking about the Leafs not bringing up Reimer quickly enough?

Giguere was acquired on January 31, 2010 when Reimer had 11 games of AHL experience to his name. It was a necessary move, and we got rid of Toskala in the process! Win-win.

It wasn't until midway through the next season (2010-11) that Reimer came in. He started the year with 29 games of AHL experience to his name. That's not a level of playing time that inspires confidence, especially when you have a much-more seasoned goaltender in Gustavsson with 60 games at the NHL level who's just putting his health issues behind him and seems to have high upside.

While Reimer was "stuck" in the AHL at the beginning of 2010-11, he was exposed to playing strings of games in a row for the first time in his professional career. He put up some impressive totals which legitimized his choosing over Scrivens for the call-up when injuries occurred.

Who knows if he was NHL-ready at the beginning of that season? Who knows if putting him in the NHL earlier would have ruined him or not?

buncha hogwash here, to be honest.

Reimer is a goalie that has been one of the best at every level he's ever played. Named best goalie in his conference in junior. MVP of the ECHL in his first pro year, then .920+ sv% in the AHL whenever he played...AND .920+sv% in the NHL whenever he's been healthy.

The fact that the Leafs:

1) Shunted Reimer to the ECHL in his first pro year to give Pogge more starts after two awful ahl seasons;
2) made him backup Joey MacDonald in his second pro year for no reason at all;
3) went out and traded for a $6m 35 yr old backup goalie in his third pro season to keep him stuck in the AHL
4) hesitated to call him up as the 3rd stringer from 09-10 on;
5) didn't give him every chance in the world to regain his form in the 11-2 season at Gus's expense;

Shows an embarassing lack of talent evaluation from the Leafs' FO.

I agree that Reimer should have been given a better chance at reclaiming the #1 in his sophomore season (2011-12). I believe the decision to give Gus a lot of starts was one of the things that caused our snowball out of playoff contention. Especially that horrific game Gus played against NJ, which I credit as the beginning of the tailspin. By this point we knew what Gustavsson and Reimer were at the NHL level, and better decisions should have been made.

Yet at the beginning of 2010-11, we didn't. I understand the decision to choose a goalie with 60 games NHL experience over a goalie with 29 games of AHL experience and 0 games NHL experience. We didn't fully know what we had in Reimer at that time.

It wasn't about "fully knowing". It was about having the gonads and ability to admit just how awful Gus and Toskala were, and it was about having the ability to evaluate just how good Reimer was.

Hey if you want to take out being stuck behind one of the best goaltenders in the world for three years on Bernier, be my guest. We didn't give up much to get him, and as of now any worrying about about preferential treatment is pure guesswork.

you're the one going on about the value of experience.

 

[zeke]

I don't think that's true. you'd much prefer to be proven right. you have been vehement in backing reamer for years now, almost to the point of obsession. I think he means a lot more to you than the team does. I don't think you ever had the same deep feelings about grabo, mcclement, franson, and the others you've been dead wrong about.

I love being proven right. And Reimer has proven me right.

But I have no problem admitting when I've been proven wrong.

But feel free to discuss your impressions of my "deep feelings", I guess.

what you're actually criticizing here is the tendency (real or perceived) to go with the more proven goalie over the less proven goalie. and what is it you want to do with reimer and bernier? you want to go with the more proven goalie.

No, I'm criticizing the tendency to go with the goalie with the more attractive technique/skillset, instead of actual performance.

What I want to do with reimer and bernier is ensure that we make the decision based on performance, not style.

Unfortunately, thanks to the Leafs' recent history, I have little faith in this happening.

don't think I've had too much to say about reimer over the years. i'm fairly indifferent to him. he's played well at times, not so well at others. I don't particularly like his off-ice personality and demeanor. seems like a great guy, maybe that's why you like him so much, but i'd prefer a goalie with a little more intensity and desire. reimer just doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, but he's been fine to this point.

Oh, you've had plenty to say about reimer over the years. We've argued over him since he was in junior. I'm not surprised you've chosen to "forget" all that, though. Just like you've seemed to forget everything you said about Kadri.

Reimer's Bower-type personality is a nice bonus, but there's plenty of nice guys in the league - I like reimer only because of his performance. He's been an elite goalie at every level he's ever played at, including the NHL. That's all I care about.

 

[7even]

I don't think there is a GM in the league that would take Reimer over Bernier, despite the records, save percentages, etc. That tells us something.... I'm more looking at it like we FINALLY have some depth with the big club and these two will certainly push each other, to the betterment of the team. Good days ahead, and unlike last year, if there is an injury, we won't hold our breathe watching a wounded seal flop around, giving up the best rebounds I've ever seen

You're trying to draw conclusions from your personal feelings? Lolwut?