Prospect Info: Draft Thread | How Far Would You Trade Down?

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Flames Draft Watcher

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that's a flawed theory...Morgan Reilly was the 3rd d-man pick in his draft class and he's behind Lindholm and arguably Trouba

Gudbranson was the 1st d-man in his draft year and is way behind Cam Fowler...picked at 12

Adam Larsson was the 1st d-man picked in 2011 and is behind Douggie Hamilton in terms of development
heck, Nurse is behind Seth Jones and Ristolainen at the moment

point is, defensemen are a crapshoot...while forwards are a little "safer"

can the Oilers afford to gamble on picking the right d-man considering their forward prospects are paper-thin?
I don't think so

Does that matter? Wouldn't the Oilers be happy with almost any of those guys? Gudbranson, Fowler, Hamilton, Larsson, Reilly, Trouba, Lindholm, Murray are all useful and valuable players.

Is the fact that Getzlaf, Perry, Parise, etc was taken later than Jessiman a good argument as to why forwards are risky? Nope. That is lazy analysis that tells us nothing. Does Scott Glennie and Filatov busting mean you shouldn't take forwards top 10? Nope. The mirror arguments against defensemen are equally as silly.

Is drafting a defenseman really that risky? Very few defensemen taken top 10 completely bust. More forwards taken top 10 completely bust. If you really crunch the numbers on d-men taken top 10, top 15 you'll find they actually aren't any riskier than the forwards. It's a frequently repeated myth as far as I'm concerned. I have crunched the numbers and I encourage you to do so as well. I think the results would be surprising to a lot of people. The vast majority of defensemen taken top 10 in the 10 years have turned out very well. The bust rate for forwards and dmen taken top 10-15 is very similar. Defensemen are not riskier, it's a myth.
 

snipes

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Dec 28, 2015
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I like how we aren't married to one pick, player, or option at #4.

I think we're more mature now realizing we need to win now with McDavid and Drai still on ELCs, our window is opening right now. We don't need an 18 year old draft pick to come in and be the saviour or have high expectations put on them. It's a nice change. Having 97 as the singular piece you build a team around provides clarity.

I'm good with taking the BPA at #4. Also happy with moving back and nabbing the D man we want in the top 10, use the return picks to package them with our 2nd get back into the first and take the BPA or Fabbro. Trading the pick outright for help on D is fine with me too. It's nice to have so many options.
 

Aceboogie

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Does that matter? Wouldn't the Oilers be happy with almost any of those guys? Gudbranson, Fowler, Hamilton, Larsson, Reilly, Trouba, Lindholm, Murray are all useful and valuable players.

Is the fact that Getzlaf, Perry, Parise, etc was taken later than Jessiman a good argument as to why forwards are risky? Nope. That is lazy analysis that tells us nothing. Does Scott Glennie and Filatov busting mean you shouldn't take forwards top 10? Nope. The mirror arguments against defensemen are equally as silly.

Is drafting a defenseman really that risky? Very few defensemen taken top 10 completely bust. More forwards taken top 10 completely bust. If you really crunch the numbers on d-men taken top 10, top 15 you'll find they actually aren't any riskier than the forwards. It's a frequently repeated myth as far as I'm concerned. I have crunched the numbers and I encourage you to do so as well. I think the results would be surprising to a lot of people. The vast majority of defensemen taken top 10 in the 10 years have turned out very well. The bust rate for forwards and dmen taken top 10-15 is very similar. Defensemen are not riskier, it's a myth.

LMAO. You wanna talk about flawed logic. This is riddled with flawed logic. The whole point of a draft is to get better player relative to other teams. Its about getting simply an NHL player, its about getting the best player available and better than the other teams

round1valuepickchart.png


heres the numbers, crunched. You will see the value of a D at 4 is significantly lower than a forward.

By your theory, youd be fine picking Reinharts year after year because they turn into some wort of NHL D. But in reality its a clear loss based on the D picked behind him. Are Lindholm and Reinhart both NHL D? yes. Is one significantly better than the other? yes

The point the poster was getting across is that you can more easily find better D in later 1st round or 2nd round (over top 10 picked D) then you can for forwards. They are only close in the 9-12 range and then forwards become more valuable than D for rest of 1st round

Very few D drafted in top 10 compeltley bust, but less top 10 drafted D go on to fulfill draft hype vs versus forwards. And more players picked as the 6th or 7th D in a draft go on to be just as success
 

Halibut

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LMAO. You wanna talk about flawed logic. This is riddled with flawed logic. The whole point of a draft is to get better player relative to other teams. Its about getting simply an NHL player, its about getting the best player available and better than the other teams

This is at least as flawed. The draft isnt about getting the best player available it's a tool to build the best team you can and that doesnt always mean taking the best player. We should have learned by now that taking the best player 5 years in a row doesnt build a winning team if they're all one dimensional forwards. Sure Tkachuk and Dubois arent one dimensional but the extra dimensions they add are much easier to pick up than defence.
 

McDoused

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LMAO. You wanna talk about flawed logic. This is riddled with flawed logic. The whole point of a draft is to get better player relative to other teams. Its about getting simply an NHL player, its about getting the best player available and better than the other teams

round1valuepickchart.png


heres the numbers, crunched. You will see the value of a D at 4 is significantly lower than a forward.

By your theory, youd be fine picking Reinharts year after year because they turn into some wort of NHL D. But in reality its a clear loss based on the D picked behind him. Are Lindholm and Reinhart both NHL D? yes. Is one significantly better than the other? yes

The point the poster was getting across is that you can more easily find better D in later 1st round or 2nd round (over top 10 picked D) then you can for forwards. They are only close in the 9-12 range and then forwards become more valuable than D for rest of 1st round

Very few D drafted in top 10 compeltley bust, but less top 10 drafted D go on to fulfill draft hype vs versus forwards. And more players picked as the 6th or 7th D in a draft go on to be just as success

Like I said before, how does this chart really support taking a forward over a dman. I mean look at picks 5-7. They are perfectly on par with forwards. I don't care how hard you crunch the numbers, you can't say taking a dman at 4 is stupid while taking a dman at 5 makes sense. You have to put some thought into understanding the numbers.
 

40oz

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Jan 21, 2007
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I'm impartial to either of the two obvious choices at #4. But for as much as people talk about Tkachuk being on an incredible team I think we should keep in mind that the Lazarev, Dubois, Svechnikov line was no joke. They were called the best line in the CHL at points this season.
 

Staghorn

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When talking tiers most the talk is approximately :

1 & 2. then 3. Then 4 to 12. Ect...

However for draft position the vast majority have Mathews over Laine, Pull, and recently Tkachuk and Dubois the absolute consensus #4 and #5 over the rest of the pack.

Damn near everyone has it that way as far as I have heard.

Not a massive drop from 5 to 6 but most certainly separation.

Enough that most scouts do not recommend taking any of the best defenceman in the top 5 period and generally only the above mentioned.

Flames are in the same spot the Oilers were two years ago. The Oilers were hoping a consensus best pick like Monahan would drop because the team in front of them might covet a lower ranked defenseman.

I dont know... I think there's Matthews and Laine, then Puljaarvi, Tkatchuk and maybe Dubois. Personally I think Dubois is down a notch given he's in the Q. The way I see it, Tkatchuk showed he can carry a team through the playoffs and dominate the Memorial Cup, doing so while not 100% healthy. The guy is gold. I honestly wouldn't be shocked to see Arizona grab him at #3. Puljaarvi to the Oilers at 4, trade RNH and 2nd to move back up into the top 10, grab an NHL DMan too in the process.

Tkachuk will be a long term NHL all star. Dubois? Lawson Crouse playing in a substandard league anyone? Pass.
 

vincent1999

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Isn't it? We have a chance to take the first dmen of the draft. This means we could/should walk away with the best defenceman of the draft. A couple years down the road and one of these guys will be a top pairing defenceman that teams will ask "how did we not draft this guy". It happens every year.

Look at OEL and Morgan Rielly. Both had question marks in their draft year but now we couldn't get them for the number 4.

but facts don't really support your logic. OEL at #6 was the second d-man selected in 2009 (Hedman wen #2 overall behind Tavares), and Rielly at #5 was the third d-men selected in 2012 (Ryan Murray went #2 and Reinhart went #4). So neither OEL nor Rielly were the top d-men selected in their draft years.

also, 2012 was quite a year for drafting d-men. Yes, Takupov went #1, but thereafter there was a flood of d-men selected in the top ten, and the higher a guy was picked didn't necessarily equate with getting the better player. #2 R. Murray, #4 Reinhart, #5 Rielly, #6 Lindholm, #7 Dumba, #8 Pouliot, #9 Trouba, #10 Koekkoek. As of today the best 4 are Murray, Rielly, Lindholm, and Trouba. So if the Oilers pick a "Reinhart" at #4, that's not a win. The 2012 draft was quite an anomaly as it was a very weak year for forwards, and a relatively strong cast of choices in terms of d-men.

but you are correct in your assertion that in most draft years the top d-men (or two or three) end up becoming pretty good players.
for instance, 2015- #5 Hanifin, #7 Provorov, #8 Werenski; 2014- N/A; 2013- #4 Seth Jones, #7 Nurse, #8 Ristolainen; 2012- #2 R. Murray, #4 Reinhart- a miss. #5 Rielly, #6 Lindholm, #7 Dumba, #8 Pouliot, #9 Trouba; 2011- #4 Larsson, #9 Hamilton, #10 Brodin; 2010- #3 Gudbranson, #10 McIlrath- a miss, #12 Fowler, #13 Gormley- a miss; 2009- #2 Hedman, #6 Ekman-Larsson, #9 Cowen- a miss; 2008- #2 Doughty, #3 Bogosian- a miss, #4 Pietrangelo, #5 Schenn- a miss; 2007- #4 Hickey- a miss, #5 Alzner; 2006- N/A; 2005- N/A; 2004- N/A; 2003 (the golden year- #7 Suter, #9 Phaneuf, #8 Coburn- a miss, #14 Seabrook

but, the list also shows some misses, and the level of play of the top 3 d-men in this draft class (Sergachev, Juolevi, and Chychrun), I would suggest is a touch below that achieved in most other draft years (such as 2015, 2014, 2012, 2011, 2009, 2008), and say sort of on par with 2010 or 2007. This year does not have any high-end level prospect to anchor the d-men class, no Hanifin, no Jones, no Murray, no Larsson, no Gudbranson (although he is a miss), no Hedman, no Doughty.

but

Isn't it? We have a chance to take the first dmen of the draft. This means we could/should walk away with the best defenceman of the draft. A couple years down the road and one of these guys will be a top pairing defenceman that teams will ask "how did we not draft this guy". It happens every year.

Look at OEL and Morgan Rielly. Both had question marks in their draft year but now we couldn't get them for the number 4.

to continue my thought: so if this draft year had one high level consensus top d-men such as a Hanifin, Jones, Murray, Larsson, Hedman, or Doughty, then at #4 the Oilers run up to the podium and grab the guy. But since that level of player is missing, well, drafting a d-men prospect at #4 is a whole lot riskier bit of business. And in such a set of circumstances, the safer bet is to draft the consensus #4 and #5 players Dubois or Tkachuk, and I prefer the versatility of the former, but professional scouts etc should know more about this than I ever will, and of course, these are still 18 year old prospects, so lots can happen from the time the ticket is picked until it can be cashed in.
 
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vincent1999

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I dont know... I think there's Matthews and Laine, then Puljaarvi, Tkatchuk and maybe Dubois. Personally I think Dubois is down a notch given he's in the Q. The way I see it, Tkatchuk showed he can carry a team through the playoffs and dominate the Memorial Cup, doing so while not 100% healthy. The guy is gold. I honestly wouldn't be shocked to see Arizona grab him at #3. Puljaarvi to the Oilers at 4, trade RNH and 2nd to move back up into the top 10, grab an NHL DMan too in the process.

Tkachuk will be a long term NHL all star. Dubois? Lawson Crouse playing in a substandard league anyone? Pass.

and the drag on Tkachuk is the high powered line he played on in London, my god he was the third wheel. And the driver of the line was Marner who has points per game numbers in his draft year that is in the same league as Drouin, P. Kane, McDavid, and Crosby, wow that is extremely good company. Another graduate had comparable numbers to that being posted this year by Tkachuk, that being Gagner who was being ushered along by his superior team mate P. Kane back in 2007. And did not a guy years ago named M-A Pouliot put up some good numbers in 2003 when he was playing on a line with Crosby, and how did that turn out??? Beware of such situations as this, that is my caution.

some of the advanced analytics on Dubois suggest that he is the number one guy on his line and team in Cape Breton. Yes, the Q is a question mark in terms of the quality and competitiveness of the league. And the OHL is the prima dona in the equation, without a doubt.

so, one strike against both of them, and it is a tough call as to what is the more important consideration.
 

vincent1999

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May 5, 2014
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I dont know... I think there's Matthews and Laine, then Puljaarvi, Tkatchuk and maybe Dubois. Personally I think Dubois is down a notch given he's in the Q. The way I see it, Tkatchuk showed he can carry a team through the playoffs and dominate the Memorial Cup, doing so while not 100% healthy. The guy is gold. I honestly wouldn't be shocked to see Arizona grab him at #3. Puljaarvi to the Oilers at 4, trade RNH and 2nd to move back up into the top 10, grab an NHL DMan too in the process.

Tkachuk will be a long term NHL all star. Dubois? Lawson Crouse playing in a substandard league anyone? Pass.

and fyi the #3 pick is to Columbus not Arizona. And there is a chance that they like a LW like Tkachuk or a LW or C like Dubois. So the Oilers might be able to make a deal to move up and get the RW Puljujarvi.

Columbus lineup looks like this:
RW Brandon Saad/ Nick Foligno/ Cam Atkinson/ Jared Boll/ David Clarkson
LW Boone Jenner/ Scott Hartnell. Matt Calvert/ Rene Bourgue
C Brandon Dubinsky/ Alex Wennberg/ William Karlsson/ Greg Campbell/ Michael Chaput

Prospects:
RW Oliver Bjorkstrand
LW Paul Bittner
C Sonny Milano

Prospect Strengths:
Depth and talent of prospects at pro level
Depth of play making centers
Deep pool of NHL ready defenders

Prospect Weaknesses:
Lack a big physical presence at forward
Goaltenders still a long way from NHL
No premiere scorers at the wing

so RW is an area of strength for them, and a Dubois or Tkachuk might fill a perceived weaker strength-- that is a possibility
 

Lacaar

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This is at least as flawed. The draft isnt about getting the best player available it's a tool to build the best team you can and that doesnt always mean taking the best player. We should have learned by now that taking the best player 5 years in a row doesnt build a winning team if they're all one dimensional forwards. Sure Tkachuk and Dubois arent one dimensional but the extra dimensions they add are much easier to pick up than defence.

They also failed the draft for need in 2003 when they wanted to get bigger.
Came away with Pouliot and Jaques. Big men.. needed men.. not best player available. Both crapped the bed hard.
 

Raab

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and the drag on Tkachuk is the high powered line he played on in London, my god he was the third wheel. And the driver of the line was Marner who has points per game numbers in his draft year that is in the same league as Drouin, P. Kane, McDavid, and Crosby, wow that is extremely good company. Another graduate had comparable numbers to that being posted this year by Tkachuk, that being Gagner who was being ushered along by his superior team mate P. Kane back in 2007. And did not a guy years ago named M-A Pouliot put up some good numbers in 2003 when he was playing on a line with Crosby, and how did that turn out??? Beware of such situations as this, that is my caution.

some of the advanced analytics on Dubois suggest that he is the number one guy on his line and team in Cape Breton. Yes, the Q is a question mark in terms of the quality and competitiveness of the league. And the OHL is the prima dona in the equation, without a doubt.

so, one strike against both of them, and it is a tough call as to what is the more important consideration.

It's funny you bring up MAP because he has a lot of similarities to Dubois. Also MAP didn't play with Crosby until the year after he was drafted.
 

Lacaar

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Jan 25, 2012
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It's funny you bring up MAP because he has a lot of similarities to Dubois. Also MAP didn't play with Crosby until the year after he was drafted.

The Oilers are still paying the price for absolutely bombing what was the best draft perhaps of all time. This draft set so many teams up for a decade plus.
 

oilinblood

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Aug 8, 2009
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LMAO. You wanna talk about flawed logic. This is riddled with flawed logic. The whole point of a draft is to get better player relative to other teams. Its about getting simply an NHL player, its about getting the best player available and better than the other teams

round1valuepickchart.png


heres the numbers, crunched. You will see the value of a D at 4 is significantly lower than a forward.

By your theory, youd be fine picking Reinharts year after year because they turn into some wort of NHL D. But in reality its a clear loss based on the D picked behind him. Are Lindholm and Reinhart both NHL D? yes. Is one significantly better than the other? yes

The point the poster was getting across is that you can more easily find better D in later 1st round or 2nd round (over top 10 picked D) then you can for forwards. They are only close in the 9-12 range and then forwards become more valuable than D for rest of 1st round

Very few D drafted in top 10 compeltley bust, but less top 10 drafted D go on to fulfill draft hype vs versus forwards. And more players picked as the 6th or 7th D in a draft go on to be just as success



Nice to see someone put some numbers together for what had always been obvious to the eyes.

Best asset is BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE. Usually high in the draft you go after a forward. Defense and goal 90% of the time guys still have alot of game left to develop. at this high point of the draft the forwards you basically know what they will be. Defense, even when there is a seth jones, a bogo, a hedman...you still dont know the time table and you dont know where they will be at the end.

if you think Dubois and Tkachuk show they can pot 40 g/80 pts and ready now?...thats a all star period who can make their value into NHL numbers quickly. those pieces can get you anything you want.

best asset is always BPA. after that, if things are even, pick for organizational need.
 

oilinblood

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Aug 8, 2009
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I dont know... I think there's Matthews and Laine, then Puljaarvi, Tkatchuk and maybe Dubois. Personally I think Dubois is down a notch given he's in the Q. The way I see it, Tkatchuk showed he can carry a team through the playoffs and dominate the Memorial Cup, doing so while not 100% healthy. The guy is gold. I honestly wouldn't be shocked to see Arizona grab him at #3. Puljaarvi to the Oilers at 4, trade RNH and 2nd to move back up into the top 10, grab an NHL DMan too in the process.

Tkachuk will be a long term NHL all star. Dubois? Lawson Crouse playing in a substandard league anyone? Pass.

Oilers will draft at 4
Oilers will not trade back into the top 10
Oilers will trade straight up for D (the contracts and budgets of teams tell me you arent getting a valuable pick thrown into that deal) Oilers have enough bottom d...they need high end d ready NOW. no more learning. we need top d to lead this squad NOW. No 18 year old putz.
 

Digger12

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And did not a guy years ago named M-A Pouliot put up some good numbers in 2003 when he was playing on a line with Crosby, and how did that turn out??? Beware of such situations as this, that is my caution.

It surprises me that no matter how many times over the years that this gets pointed out as being completely false, that it keeps being brought up.

Pouliot wasn't a mere cog in a powerhouse during his draft year, he was the best player in a really, really bad team.
 

Mcnotloilersfan

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Anyone else dreaming hockey these days.

I had one where we traded the pick before the draft, then at the draft winnipeg shocked everyone and took Puljujarvi. After that, Columbus went with rumours and took Brown. We missed a chance to draft Laine. Haha
 

doubledown99

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May 21, 2009
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Anyone else dreaming hockey these days.

I had one where we traded the pick before the draft, then at the draft winnipeg shocked everyone and took Puljujarvi. After that, Columbus went with rumours and took Brown. We missed a chance to draft Laine. Haha

The chances are slim but Laine might be available at #4. Stauffer yesterday said that he heard at the combine that Jets scouts might prefer Puljujärvi over Laine. You would assume CLB would then jump at Laine but maybe they shock everyone with a C pick (the more likely scenario if somehow Laine was available at 3 would be CLB taking him or a trade up by probably Calgary using there 2nd rd picks but I prefer Laine somehow falling to the Oilers ;))

And Digger12 your post is bang on. It seems every year the MAP thing comes up and someone says 'Crosby' and every year numerous posts point out the error but it never seems to go away. Very annoying.
 

Zaddy

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Feb 8, 2013
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Anyone else dreaming hockey these days.

I had one where we traded the pick before the draft, then at the draft winnipeg shocked everyone and took Puljujarvi. After that, Columbus went with rumours and took Brown. We missed a chance to draft Laine. Haha

That sounds so Oilers.
 
Oct 15, 2008
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They also failed the draft for need in 2003 when they wanted to get bigger.
Came away with Pouliot and Jaques. Big men.. needed men.. not best player available. Both crapped the bed hard.

Was Yakupov the BPA? Nuge? How's that workin for ya?
 
Oct 15, 2008
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The chances are slim but Laine might be available at #4. Stauffer yesterday said that he heard at the combine that Jets scouts might prefer Puljujärvi over Laine. You would assume CLB would then jump at Laine but maybe they shock everyone with a C pick (the more likely scenario if somehow Laine was available at 3 would be CLB taking him or a trade up by probably Calgary using there 2nd rd picks but I prefer Laine somehow falling to the Oilers ;))

And Digger12 your post is bang on. It seems every year the MAP thing comes up and someone says 'Crosby' and every year numerous posts point out the error but it never seems to go away. Very annoying.

Stauffer also repeated that Yakupov was going to be stolen by the Kremlin. I feel sorry for those who take what he says seriously.
 

doubledown99

Registered User
May 21, 2009
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Stauffer also repeated that Yakupov was going to be stolen by the Kremlin. I feel sorry for those who take what he says seriously.

IATL what is with your Stauffer hate/anger? It's bordering on unhealthy. Every time that guy is mentioned you have a snarky comment about him. I can accept you don't like or respect him but just my opinion, you need to let things go. It will make you happier and bring more joy and good fortune to your life.

Anyways, Steve Simmons said the same thing about Jets preferring Puljujärvi over Laine
 

Beerfish

Registered User
Apr 14, 2007
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IATL what is with your Stauffer hate/anger? It's bordering on unhealthy. Every time that guy is mentioned you have a snarky comment about him. Did he piss in your corn flakes or something? Steal a girlfriend? Make fun of one of your ideas/comments?

I can accept you don't like or respect him but just my opinion, you need to let things go. It will make you happier and bring more joy and good fortune to your life.

Anyways, Steve Simmons said the same thing about Jets preferring Puljujärvi over Laine

Bobby Shill deserves all this and more. Hey I don't blame him for acting as he does becasue his job is totally on the line if he does not tow the line. He has a lack of cred in many things he says and yet is viewed as some kind of good source for all things oiler.

I'd hate to hear what he says to other teams when they phone up for an update on the oilers.
 
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