HF Habs: Draft 2018: What are your immediate draft class feelings?

[Habs Icing]

Yeah but you're doing it with the same arguments that people have been using to be completely wrong about Kotkaniemi heretofore. He looks funny and he fans on passes. That was true a year ago, and it made people say very silly things about where he should be picked in the draft. The fact is people, even his biggest supporters, severely underestimated the extent of his qualities.

And you haven't made any points proving he'll be a #1 center.

 

[Garp]

And you haven't made any points proving he'll be a #1 center.

I don't think he'll be an elite offensive center ala MacKinnon but he has all the tools to be an elite 2-way first line center ala Kopitar /Barkov. His puck skills are great and his IQ is elite. The thing to consider also is that he's the perfect project / fit for the coaching staff in place which is major for his development. People are saying that Julien is bad with young players, I think it's false. I think Julien is bad at developing elite offensive player (ex : Seguin / Kessel) but is great with 2-way players (Bergeron / Pasternak). I think this fit is really important for KK development.

 

[NotProkofievian]

And you haven't made any points proving he'll be a #1 center.

I don't think it's possible to prove that anyone will be anything, but we can discuss it if you like. I will even grant your criticisms: he looks funny and it's possible that he'll always look funny on the ice. My counter will be this: that doesn't mean he isn't effective.

If we're going to talk about 1C's we need to define what a 1C is. To me, it's a center who can play a lot of minutes, whose line controls the majority of shots/scoring chances etc., and who is individually an offensively dangerous player. People will use zone starts to argue that Kotkaniemi is being sheltered, and I will argue that because hockey is a dynamic game, and coaches make line matchups adversarially. It's been shown that while players play better against worse players, and worse against better players, everyone is essentially playing against everyone else. Now, what about the effect?

What these mean, and what the data bears out, is that Kotkaniemi is ridiculously effective as a center iceman with respect to the control of scoring chances. That means that, as he matures, he's going to get a lot of minutes. The biggest impediment to Galchenyuk becoming a 1C wasn't that he was awkward and jerky (and still is to some extent), but because he couldn't consistently get the minutes at that position. Jesperi has consistently expanded his role as an 18 year old, and no one has any questions that he will play a huge role and at center to boot. His own coach said that his play is forcing him to ''find more minutes.'' So, criteria one and two are fulfilled. Now, about criterion 3.

He can shoot. He might fan on shots, but he also has a diverse and dangerous shooting arsenal. He can shoot off of either foot, off the rush, on set plays and broken plays, from both sides of the ice, and he can beat goaltenders clean. He's going to score goals. As for his passing? ''Kotkaniemi passes'' became a meme before the season even began. Personally, I saw everything that I needed to see about his passing game in the first Liiga game of his that I watched. He understands passing angles in a way that few players do, and he's able to connect on passes that are unpredictable for opposing defences. That means that his wingers are going to score goals.

Now, if he never improves on what you have pointed out, then I agree, he will not be a 1C. But here's the (final) thing: he already has improved on those points. Maybe you didn't watch him last year, I don't know if you did, but he was unbelievably awkward this time last year. In my wildest dreams I didn't think he'd have improved his skating as much as he already has. I'm betting that this will continue. Not everyone has to, but they should know what they're betting against.

 

[Habs Icing]

I don't think it's possible to prove that anyone will be anything, but we can discuss it if you like. I will even grant your criticisms: he looks funny and it's possible that he'll always look funny on the ice. My counter will be this: that doesn't mean he isn't effective.

If we're going to talk about 1C's we need to define what a 1C is. To me, it's a center who can play a lot of minutes, whose line controls the majority of shots/scoring chances etc., and who is individually an offensively dangerous player. People will use zone starts to argue that Kotkaniemi is being sheltered, and I will argue that because hockey is a dynamic game, and coaches make line matchups adversarially. It's been shown that while players play better against worse players, and worse against better players, everyone is essentially playing against everyone else. Now, what about the effect?

What these mean, and what the data bears out, is that Kotkaniemi is ridiculously effective as a center iceman with respect to the control of scoring chances. That means that, as he matures, he's going to get a lot of minutes. The biggest impediment to Galchenyuk becoming a 1C wasn't that he was awkward and jerky (and still is to some extent), but because he couldn't consistently get the minutes at that position. Jesperi has consistently expanded his role as an 18 year old, and no one has any questions that he will play a huge role and at center to boot. His own coach said that his play is forcing him to ''find more minutes.'' So, criteria one and two are fulfilled. Now, about criterion 3.

He can shoot. He might fan on shots, but he also has a diverse and dangerous shooting arsenal. He can shoot off of either foot, off the rush, on set plays and broken plays, from both sides of the ice, and he can beat goaltenders clean. He's going to score goals. As for his passing? ''Kotkaniemi passes'' became a meme before the season even began. Personally, I saw everything that I needed to see about his passing game in the first Liiga game of his that I watched. He understands passing angles in a way that few players do, and he's able to connect on passes that are unpredictable for opposing defences. That means that his wingers are going to score goals.

Now, if he never improves on what you have pointed out, then I agree, he will not be a 1C. But here's the (final) thing: he already has improved on those points. Maybe you didn't watch him last year, I don't know if you did, but he was unbelievably awkward this time last year. In my wildest dreams I didn't think he'd have improved his skating as much as he already has. I'm betting that this will continue. Not everyone has to, but they should know what they're betting against.

I won't get into a discussion about our individual insights into this player because they are divergently different. I just want to correct you on one point. I never said he looked funny. I said he was awkward. Not the same thing. For example he's constantly losing his balance. That is not looking funny. That is being awkward.

 

[Roadhouse]

I won't get into a discussion about our individual insights into this player because they are divergently different. I just want to correct you on one point. I never said he looked funny. I said he was awkward. Not the same thing. For example he's constantly losing his balance. That is not looking funny. That is being awkward.

Youngest player in pro sports... for all we know he's not done growing. We do see some flashes of agility in his skating at times. The muscle memory and coordination aspects of 'not losing his balance' should come with time. My step-son is 13 and the odds that he misses a step & falls in our staircase going up at full speed are probably 3:1.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I won't get into a discussion about our individual insights into this player because they are divergently different. I just want to correct you on one point. I never said he looked funny. I said he was awkward. Not the same thing. For example he's constantly losing his balance. That is not looking funny. That is being awkward.

Okay.

 

[FrankMTL]

Yeah, he's awkward, but he also still a kid growing into his body. Completely normal. Some players are drafted and already look like men, some players are drafted and they still look like kids. Kotkaniemi still has a kids body. I guarantee you when he gains some strength, he won't be falling on this ice quite as much.

I remember when Pacioretty first played in games for the Habs , he was falling all the time. He had talent but he just wasn't strong enough on his skates. Fast forward a few years later, and obviously it's not a discussion anymore.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Damn Joe Veleno with 40 goals and nearly 2p/game.

 

[montreal]

Instead of changing, I think it will be circumvented. Reports are that Alexis Lafrenière will do as Auston Matthews did and head over to europe to play next year. If he can do that I don't see why a guy like Nick Suzuki couldn't have done so this year.

wasn't sure where to put this, but since we were talking about CHL kids leaving early to play in the Euro leagues, don't know if you heard but Wahlstrom informed his NCAA team that he's leaving school. From what I heard he'll either sign with NYI or if they don't think he's ready, he says he has offers from Euro league teams and would go play there.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

I don't think it's possible to prove that anyone will be anything, but we can discuss it if you like. I will even grant your criticisms: he looks funny and it's possible that he'll always look funny on the ice. My counter will be this: that doesn't mean he isn't effective.

If we're going to talk about 1C's we need to define what a 1C is. To me, it's a center who can play a lot of minutes, whose line controls the majority of shots/scoring chances etc., and who is individually an offensively dangerous player. People will use zone starts to argue that Kotkaniemi is being sheltered, and I will argue that because hockey is a dynamic game, and coaches make line matchups adversarially. It's been shown that while players play better against worse players, and worse against better players, everyone is essentially playing against everyone else. Now, what about the effect?

What these mean, and what the data bears out, is that Kotkaniemi is ridiculously effective as a center iceman with respect to the control of scoring chances. That means that, as he matures, he's going to get a lot of minutes. The biggest impediment to Galchenyuk becoming a 1C wasn't that he was awkward and jerky (and still is to some extent), but because he couldn't consistently get the minutes at that position. Jesperi has consistently expanded his role as an 18 year old, and no one has any questions that he will play a huge role and at center to boot. His own coach said that his play is forcing him to ''find more minutes.'' So, criteria one and two are fulfilled. Now, about criterion 3.

He can shoot. He might fan on shots, but he also has a diverse and dangerous shooting arsenal. He can shoot off of either foot, off the rush, on set plays and broken plays, from both sides of the ice, and he can beat goaltenders clean. He's going to score goals. As for his passing? ''Kotkaniemi passes'' became a meme before the season even began. Personally, I saw everything that I needed to see about his passing game in the first Liiga game of his that I watched. He understands passing angles in a way that few players do, and he's able to connect on passes that are unpredictable for opposing defences. That means that his wingers are going to score goals.

Now, if he never improves on what you have pointed out, then I agree, he will not be a 1C. But here's the (final) thing: he already has improved on those points. Maybe you didn't watch him last year, I don't know if you did, but he was unbelievably awkward this time last year. In my wildest dreams I didn't think he'd have improved his skating as much as he already has. I'm betting that this will continue. Not everyone has to, but they should know what they're betting against.

nice post bru. can't argue with numbers like those

 

[atrud66]

Pretty cool mentorship

 

[Goldenhands]

Exactly this. They know how valuable an elite skating LD that can play in any situation is. They don’t have that in the system (Beaudin is not at that level).

Say what you will about Toews, but he just had an amazing season and is only 30, he isn’t yet dead. They traded for Strome who looks to be a good 2C. If they want another kick at the can before Toews and Kane start going downhill, Byram is the guy they can inject into the lineup and help the team now.

With a legitimate goalie, they are easily a playoff team.

And while Boqvist is awesome on the PP, he isnt the most defensively sound, I saw him make costy mistakes a couple of times while watching London, still a great prospect though...

 

[Mrb1p]

And while Boqvist is awesome on the PP, he isnt the most defensively sound, I saw him make costy mistakes a couple of times while watching London, still a great prospect though...

Offensive minded D makes mistakes at 18

Stop the press

 

[Goldenhands]

Offensive minded D makes mistakes at 18

Stop the press

Only saying that its not always easy in his own zone, Boqvist isnt as complete or well rounded as a guy like Byram who is a better all around defenseman...

 

[WeThreeKings]

Only saying that its not always easy in his own zone, Boqvist isnt as complete or well rounded than a guy like Byram who is a better all around defenseman...

He might make some mistakes as most young offensive d men do. But he is exceptional under pressure and once he gets coached up he will be an amazing defenseman. He was one of my favorites in the draft. He's a weapon out there.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Suzuki is the only top 4 in points left in the playoffs.

Damn, Boqvist is the real deal.

 

[phillytennis]

I don't think he'll be an elite offensive center ala MacKinnon but he has all the tools to be an elite 2-way first line center ala Kopitar /Barkov. His puck skills are great and his IQ is elite. The thing to consider also is that he's the perfect project / fit for the coaching staff in place which is major for his development. People are saying that Julien is bad with young players, I think it's false. I think Julien is bad at developing elite offensive player (ex : Seguin / Kessel) but is great with 2-way players (Bergeron / Pasternak). I think this fit is really important for KK development.

I believe that Kirk Muller will have greater influence on making KK a great two way centreman with the Habs.

 

[Mrb1p]

"The disrespect Tkachuk got around here was ridiculous!!!"

"Tkachuk is a good prospect who is probably the most NHL ready, but he's an elite complimentary piece who we would be better served drafting a few years into the rebuild."

Blatant Disarray Spects.

We didnt disrespect Brady. *Has him outside the top 10, one spot above Berggren*

 

[WeThreeKings]

We didnt disrespect Brady. *Has him outside the top 10, one spot above Berggren*

Yet rated close to Zadina and somehow only rated behind guys with higher positional values and upside.

Makes ya think.

 

[Mrb1p]

Yet rated close to Zadina and somehow only rated behind guys with higher positional values and upside.

Makes ya think.

Theres no excuse to have Brady outside the top ten.

Especially when you have Wallstrom 4th OA

 

[NotProkofievian]

Did @Mrb1p even post a full list last year?

 

[WeThreeKings]

Theres no excuse to have Brady outside the top ten.

Especially when you have Wallstrom 4th OA

Yeah, there is. If you're drafting specifically for players who have a higher positional value or dynamic skill set.

Great player. Not a driver. Not a game breaker. Why would I put that ahead of guys who are? That doesn't disrespect Tkachuk, it's a ranking that's weighing heavily toward things he doesn't provide.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Did @Mrb1p even post a full list last year?

Just that he had Hayton at like #100 and disrespected him by not having him in his top ten.

 

[Mrb1p]

Did @Mrb1p even post a full list last year?

I did

 

[Mrb1p]

Just that he had Hayton at like #100 and disrespected him by not having him in his top ten.

45 and he sux

Yeah, there is. If you're drafting specifically for players who have a higher positional value or dynamic skill set.

Great player. Not a driver. Not a game breaker. Why would I put that ahead of guys who are? That doesn't disrespect Tkachuk, it's a ranking that's weighing heavily toward things he doesn't provide.

Brady is a better driver than Oliver