Speculation: Dougie Hamilton Negotiations (Pt. 2)

[hblueridgegal]

Yup. Careful what you wish for.

Still, there is a middle ground. But you're not getting that middle ground from the subprime auto guy, looks like

Looks like they're being run by a private equity company to me.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Gold saying TDA is like Hamilton on the ice. Cole chuckles and says I hope not. Does the organization just push Cole to do an interview with A Gold when a big name is moved / let go to help justify it?

They might …. If Cole was still affiliated with the Canes.

But he isn’t.

 

[Nismo350z]

They might …. If Cole was still affiliated with the Canes.

But he isn’t.

Team ambassador Erik Cole

 

[HisIceness]

Hamilton is a good player, but a team paying him 9 million a year is not a cup winner

True, I agree.

However, short-term this team is worse w/o him playoffs or not, but it is what it is and he had the right to go wherever he wanted, but as I've stated before I think he's going to learn the grass isn't always greener elsewhere. FWIW though I thought he was great in the Capitals series two years ago since people are debating about his playoff history here. Also can't forget him patting Nelson on the head after the sweep of the Islanders.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Cole is a fan. Fans generally dump on players on the way out of town to downplay the significance of a departure.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Team ambassador Erik Cole

At one point, yes. I’m fairly certain that is not the case now.

I could be wrong.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

At one point, yes. I’m fairly certain that is not the case now.

I could be wrong.

Whether or not he is an official ambassador, he is an ambassador, and talking shit about a guy who was a good teammate and a Norris candidate is a bad look.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Whether or not he is an official ambassador, he is an ambassador, and talking shit about a guy who was a good teammate and a Norris candidate is a bad look.

I think I actually AM wrong about the affiliation … I was misinformed.

However, I still don’t think it’s a big deal. We all want honest assessments from athletes, and we got one. I don’t think Cole is “taking orders” from anyone, that was about as honest as it gets. A snort and a chuckle.

Now it could a be a wrong assessment…but it’s still an honest opinion.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think I actually AM wrong about the affiliation … I was misinformed.

However, I still don’t think it’s a big deal. We all want honest assessments from athletes, and we got one. I don’t think Cole is “taking orders” from anyone, that was about as honest as it gets. A snort and a chuckle.

Now it could a be a wrong assessment…but it’s still an honest opinion.

If it were a one-off I’d agree. But this has become a conspicuous thing where Erik Cole kneecaps reputations of former players. He doesn’t have anything meaningful to say for years, then five minutes after a guy stops being Canes property over a money decision he’s on the next radio show with hot takes about the guy’s character?

That looks a lot less like an “honest assessment” than the organization doing a really trashy thing to control a media narrative. And it has an extremely strong smack of the Karmanos/Rutherford culture wherein Erik Cole learned exactly how to get high-level shitty over contracts.

 

[Lempo]

Every self-respecting sports entertainment needs a proper face-heel turn every now and then.

 

[AD Skinner]

I mean I don't listen to the show so maybe Cole is on regularly but I kinda doubt it. It wouldn't seem so gross to me if Cole hadn't also chased money and made comments about being in a "real hockey market" when he did

 

[VibesAlive]

Who gives a shit about what Cole says anyway?

Oh, .....

 

[Svechhammer]

If it were a one-off I’d agree. But this has become a conspicuous thing where Erik Cole kneecaps reputations of former players. He doesn’t have anything meaningful to say for years, then five minutes after a guy stops being Canes property over a money decision he’s on the next radio show with hot takes about the guy’s character?

That looks a lot less like an “honest assessment” than the organization doing a really trashy thing to control a media narrative. And it has an extremely strong smack of the Karmanos/Rutherford culture wherein Erik Cole learned exactly how to get high-level shitty over contracts.

But even then, when it was over Skinner, at least there were some strong whispers that things were off behind the scenes and that there wasn't a good fit. With this one about Dougie, it kind of came out of nowhere.

 

[tarheelhockey]

But even then, when it was over Skinner, at least there were some strong whispers that things were off behind the scenes and that there wasn't a good fit. With this one about Dougie, it kind of came out of nowhere.

Sure, but there’s a difference between random people gossiping about a bad fit, and Erik Cole showing up at the draft party and choke-slamming Skinner’s reputation as an official ambassador of the organization.

 

[Svechhammer]

Sure, but there’s a difference between random people gossiping about a bad fit, and Erik Cole showing up at the draft party and choke-slamming Skinner’s reputation as an official ambassador of the organization.

Oh agreed. All I'm saying is that at least with Skinner we already had an idea that something like this was going on, so to hear it verified publicly was at least somewhat easy to stomach. This time, it just isn't landing the same way, and almost feels like contrived bullshit.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I would have felt better if the org gave off the sense they had gone to Hamilton saying, "Look, we can't outbid whatever dumb offer some desperate team will throw your way on the free agency market. But we can offer you a reasonable rate with term, one that will pay you your millions while saving us cap space and our cap structure."

I don't feel the team made that effort. It comes across either 1) they never wanted to sign him and thought they could replace him on the cheap, hence the report that the team was frustrated they couldn't trade his rights (the real reason they let him test the market early) or 2) as other reports have said, the front office has a ridiculous valuation of players disconnected from any reality we currently inhabit. Or both. Sara's 6.2 or LeBrun's 5.75 are absurd, those are "lol gtfo" numbers.

Was this always the plan? To trade two good pieces for him and then let him walk? Were they hoping for what didn't happen with Ferland would happen with Hamilton?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

For as much as some think this is a habit from Cole, looking at the other side of things, this is also becoming a habit with Hamilton. Fan bases (and teams) haven't been very complimentary of Dougie upon his departure for a variety of reasons. Justifiable reasons? I can't say, but if anything, the team and fans in Carolina have been a heck of a lot more complimentary of Dougie (or at least less derogatory) upon his departure than the prior two teams.

Some people are never going to like a player like Dougie, no matter what. For example:
- Doesn't come across as taking things too seriously, which can rub some people the wrong way.
- Is a big guy that doesn't use his size, and at times avoids contact.
- is more prone to defensive gaffs

I like Dougie and had hoped we could keep him as he brings way more positives than negatives. Even before his departure, there were some that didn't care for him though and some are now more vocal now that he's gone.

re: Finlandia's post above, to me it's #1 - the Canes didn't really want him with their offer.

 

[cptjeff]

For as much as some think this is a habit from Cole, looking at the other side of things, this is also becoming a habit with Hamilton. Fan bases (and teams) haven't been very complimentary of Dougie upon his departure for a variety of reasons. Justifiable reasons? I can't say, but if anything, the team and fans in Carolina have been a heck of a lot more complimentary of Dougie (or at least less derogatory) upon his departure than the prior two teams.

Some people are never going to like a player like Dougie, no matter what. For example:
- Doesn't come across as taking things too seriously, which can rub some people the wrong way.
- Is a big guy that doesn't use his size, and at times avoids contact.
- is more prone to defensive gaffs

I like Dougie and had hoped we could keep him as he brings way more positives than negatives. Even before his departure, there were some that didn't care for him though and some are now more vocal now that he's gone.

re: Finlandia's post above, to me it's #1 - the Canes didn't really want him with their offer.

The Canes *were* offering a fair offer with term. But "fair" in this case incorporates the bad as well as the good. Dougie is a player that contributes a lot, but also has major flaws that aren't just figments of imagination. There are a lot of warts to his game. New Jersey signed him to a contract that flat out ignored all the warts in his game.

I'm as close to a hard Dougie critic as you'll actually find around here, and I still wanted to keep him- but at a value close to what the Canes ultimately were offering. I think he's a good and useful player. But I'm not paying him 9 f***ing million dollars a year. That is utterly insane and we were right not to even try to come close to it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Was this always the plan? To trade two good pieces for him and then let him walk? Were they hoping for what didn't happen with Ferland would happen with Hamilton?

I don't think they were expecting him to be in Norris contention. That put him in a conversation with guys like Carlson ($8M two years ago) and Josi (starting $9M) rather than guys like Faulk and Krug (both $6.5M) which is about where he had been up until he came to Carolina.

I think the plan was for him to be a $6.5M type of player and maybe have to stretch up uncomfortably to $7M after a hard negotiation, not for him to be an $8M type of player and be faced with a $9M stretch. It's basically the exact same thing that happened with Ned, where a trophy-worthy season added a million or two to his market value. That wasn't part of the plan.

 

[Lempo]

Sure, but there’s a difference between random people gossiping about a bad fit, and Erik Cole showing up at the draft party and choke-slamming Skinner’s reputation as an official ambassador of the organization.

But bah gaad his music was playin'!

 

[Borsig]

I don't think they were expecting him to be in Norris contention. That put him in a conversation with guys like Carlson ($8M two years ago) and Josi (starting $9M) rather than guys like Faulk and Krug (both $6.5M) which is about where he had been up until he came to Carolina.

I think the plan was for him to be a $6.5M type of player and maybe have to stretch up uncomfortably to $7M after a hard negotiation, not for him to be an $8M type of player and be faced with a $9M stretch. It's basically the exact same thing that happened with Ned, where a trophy-worthy season added a million or two to his market value. That wasn't part of the plan.

So what you're saying is in fact...

We're still lowballers and cheap.

Girl we been known.

 

[Lempo]

The Canes *were* offering a fair offer with term. But "fair" in this case incorporates the bad as well as the good. Dougie is a player that contributes a lot, but also has major flaws that aren't just figments of imagination. There are a lot of warts to his game. New Jersey signed him to a contract that flat out ignored all the warts in his game.

I'm as close to a hard Dougie critic as you'll actually find around here, and I still wanted to keep him- but at a value close to what the Canes ultimately were offering. I think he's a good and useful player. But I'm not paying him 9 f***ing million dollars a year. That is utterly insane and we were right not to even try to come close to it.

Those guys on radio did call out Canes for being out of touch with the going market rates (on Ned), but I think that the going market rate for the Dougie is a very different thing from what you can with cold logic allocate of the cap room to a Dougie.

 

[dogbazinho]

Seems like we are peak covid negotiating while others are post.

 

[MinJaBen]

I think the plan was for him to be a $6.5M type of player and maybe have to stretch up uncomfortably to $7M after a hard negotiation, not for him to be an $8M type of player and be faced with a $9M stretch. It's basically the exact same thing that happened with Ned, where a trophy-worthy season added a million or two to his market value. That wasn't part of the plan.

So what you are saying is that we aren't planning for success? Seems about right.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So what you're saying is in fact...

We're still lowballers and cheap.

Girl we been known.

It's not being cheap exactly -- if we pay both Dougie and Ned, we're solidly $4M over what we might have projected for those guys a couple of years ago, and that's cap suicide -- but I do wonder how much the TDA situation played into their thinking. That was a unique X-factor that couldn't have been predicted, and gave them a relatively easy-out financially speaking. If TDA isn't on the market for almost free, maybe there's a bit more sense of panic around Dougie. A lot of GMs would have given in to that panic regardless, but this front office doesn't seem to have a pulse when it comes to saying "no".

Ned, I think he was gone as soon as he signaled a desire for arbitration. I fully believe he asked for $5M because that sets an arbitration bar that's likely to land around $3M-4M. One thing we could not afford to do, was let that process play out and have him awarded something on the high end around $4M-$5M. With that possibility on the table, it was a matter of finding a trade partner.