Doug Armstrong

Blueston

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Dec 4, 2016
19,000
19,745
Houston, TX
I’m sorry but this taking point always drives me nuts.

Even if you believe every move is independent in a lot of situations (Which is a silly mindset to have as a GM: acquiring pure value doesn’t win you a cup, the right fits do), there is no way to argue they are independent here.

He trades for a Right Hand Defensemen, and immediately signs him to a 6 x 6.5 contract. That locks us into 12 million dollars a year on just the right side going into the next free agency. Which just so happens to be the year you franchise defensemen, also a RHD, is entering free agency. The move at the time was viewed as a warning sign Petro would be gone next year, and it concerned us. The fact that we lost him just continues the point. But we still have people sayin my it’s not Army’s fault, due to a slew of reasons. My counter to that is no matter how you look at the move, it still looks awful for Armstrong imo.

Option A: Armstrong made the Faulk trade without actually thinking of the Petro angle at all. It was purely a win now move done in an attempt to go back to back.

My Response: In that case he cut off his nose to spite his face. If he chose that year to push all in on, why do it with Faulk and no try to shore up the 2nd LHD spot? While a minor upgrade to the 3rd Pair RHD spot would have been nice, it wasn’t a gigantic need either. Also, any GM making that type of move without thinking about the big picture is a giant problem for his team.

Option B: The Faulk trade was an insurance policy to make sure if Petro did walk, we were covered. And he did! Isn’t Army smart!

My response: Does the phrase “Self-Fulfilling Prophecy” mean anything to you? Because that’s what this created. Not only if I was in Petro’s position would I take this as a sign that they might be ready to let me walk, it also backed us up into a corner: We can’t have 22 million locked up just on our Right Hand Side can we? This move maybe, MAYBE works if Petro is a restricted free agent, and your lowering his price tag, but not when he’s Unrestricted. It’s just gonna lead to him walking and is wondering how the hell we are gonna push forward without a full rebuild.

Option C: Obviously Army’s plan was to play Faulk on the Left Side, like they did with Carolina. We are basically getting Bouws long term replacement, not Petros

My response: This argument almost makes sense other then A: Faulk never looked good playing on his off side for us and B: When Bouw went down we immediately panicked and traded for and extended Scandella.

Option D: Army had came to the conclusion we wouldn’t miss Petro much, and made the move knowing he would most likely not be here after the next year

My response: Then he’s flat dumb, and believes he is way smarter then he actually is. No other thoughts, just simple.

Option E: Army was totally against giving Petro that No Movement Clause and accepted that he needed to be prepped for when Petro wouldn’t bend on it

My response: We will never be able to retain an elite player without No Movement Clauses in today’s game. Full stop. Our only way to contend is to rebuild completely and just hope we draft great and win before they hit UFA.

So yeah. Don’t buy it.
Cant believe we are still litigating this. He dealt for Faulk bc Petro was demanding well over $9mm annually and he wasn’t going to pay it. I do think DA was hoping Petro would lower ask to where club was comfortable, but he was apparently dubious that would happen so he made the move.
 

Novacain

Registered User
Feb 24, 2012
4,362
4,875
Cant believe we are still litigating this. He dealt for Faulk bc Petro was demanding well over $9mm annually and he wasn’t going to pay it. I do think DA was hoping Petro would lower ask to where club was comfortable, but he was apparently dubious that would happen so he made the move.

In that case

Option F: Doug Armstrong doesn’t think Alex Pietrangelo is worth in the 9.5 million range per year but does think Justin Faulk is worth 6.5.

My response: This is by far the most damning, because it tells me Armstrong has no clue how to evaluate hockey players. Petro has been an elite player for almost a decade, a level Faulk never touched. If he can’t tell why Petro is more then worth the 3 million dollar difference, then it’s absolutely a sign that we will never retain an elite player until he’s gone.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Blues Knight

Frenzy31

Registered User
May 21, 2003
7,199
2,011
In that case

Option F: Doug Armstrong doesn’t think Alex Pietrangelo is worth in the 9.5 million range per year but does think Justin Faulk is worth 6.5.

My response: This is by far the most damning, because it tells me Armstrong has no clue how to evaluate hockey players. Petro has been an elite player for almost a decade, a level Faulk never touched. If he can’t tell why Petro is more then worth the 3 million dollar difference, then it’s absolutely a sign that we will never retain an elite player until he’s gone.

And yet Faulk was the best dman on the team by far. One of the best Blues players all season and worth every penny if the 6.5. Pie isn’t 3 million better then Faulk, atleast last year,
 

Stupendous Yappi

Idiot Control Now!
Sponsor
Aug 23, 2018
8,605
13,430
Erwin, TN
I’m sorry but this taking point always drives me nuts.

Even if you believe every move is independent in a lot of situations (Which is a silly mindset to have as a GM: acquiring pure value doesn’t win you a cup, the right fits do), there is no way to argue they are independent here.

He trades for a Right Hand Defensemen, and immediately signs him to a 6 x 6.5 contract. That locks us into 12 million dollars a year on just the right side going into the next free agency. Which just so happens to be the year you franchise defensemen, also a RHD, is entering free agency. The move at the time was viewed as a warning sign Petro would be gone next year, and it concerned us. The fact that we lost him just continues the point. But we still have people sayin my it’s not Army’s fault, due to a slew of reasons. My counter to that is no matter how you look at the move, it still looks awful for Armstrong imo.

Option A: Armstrong made the Faulk trade without actually thinking of the Petro angle at all. It was purely a win now move done in an attempt to go back to back.

My Response: In that case he cut off his nose to spite his face. If he chose that year to push all in on, why do it with Faulk and no try to shore up the 2nd LHD spot? While a minor upgrade to the 3rd Pair RHD spot would have been nice, it wasn’t a gigantic need either. Also, any GM making that type of move without thinking about the big picture is a giant problem for his team.

Option B: The Faulk trade was an insurance policy to make sure if Petro did walk, we were covered. And he did! Isn’t Army smart!

My response: Does the phrase “Self-Fulfilling Prophecy” mean anything to you? Because that’s what this created. Not only if I was in Petro’s position would I take this as a sign that they might be ready to let me walk, it also backed us up into a corner: We can’t have 22 million locked up just on our Right Hand Side can we? This move maybe, MAYBE works if Petro is a restricted free agent, and your lowering his price tag, but not when he’s Unrestricted. It’s just gonna lead to him walking and is wondering how the hell we are gonna push forward without a full rebuild.

Option C: Obviously Army’s plan was to play Faulk on the Left Side, like they did with Carolina. We are basically getting Bouws long term replacement, not Petros

My response: This argument almost makes sense other then A: Faulk never looked good playing on his off side for us and B: When Bouw went down we immediately panicked and traded for and extended Scandella.

Option D: Army had came to the conclusion we wouldn’t miss Petro much, and made the move knowing he would most likely not be here after the next year

My response: Then he’s flat dumb, and believes he is way smarter then he actually is. No other thoughts, just simple.

Option E: Army was totally against giving Petro that No Movement Clause and accepted that he needed to be prepped for when Petro wouldn’t bend on it

My response: We will never be able to retain an elite player without No Movement Clauses in today’s game. Full stop. Our only way to contend is to rebuild completely and just hope we draft great and win before they hit UFA.

So yeah. Don’t buy it.
Faulk being re-signed didn’t impact the contract Armstrong offered Pietro. Wasn’t it the NMC that was the issue anyway? You may not like the L-R balance if they were both on the team, but it wasn’t because they couldn’t both fit within the cap structure.

How does Faulk moves have anything whatsoever to do with a conflict about the NMC?
 
  • Like
Reactions: MissouriMook

Blueston

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Dec 4, 2016
19,000
19,745
Houston, TX
Faulk being re-signed didn’t impact the contract Armstrong offered Pietro. Wasn’t it the NMC that was the issue anyway? You may not like the L-R balance if they were both on the team, but it wasn’t because they couldn’t both fit within the cap structure.

How does Faulk moves have anything whatsoever to do with a conflict about the NMC?
NMC was always a red herring. DA didn’t want to meet Petro $ ask.
 

Novacain

Registered User
Feb 24, 2012
4,362
4,875
Faulk being re-signed didn’t impact the contract Armstrong offered Pietro. Wasn’t it the NMC that was the issue anyway? You may not like the L-R balance if they were both on the team, but it wasn’t because they couldn’t both fit within the cap structure.

How does Faulk moves have anything whatsoever to do with a conflict about the NMC?

Other then the potential for Armstrong to convince himself he doesn’t need to bend on the NMC due to having the Right Side set, it doesn’t really. It’s more a rant to finish that if Armstrong really let one of the cornerstones of a cup winner walk due to the difference between a No Movement Clause and a Full No Trade, he’s a complete moron.
 

Louie the Blue

Because it's a trap
Jul 27, 2010
4,768
3,104
I get that he’s not a superstar but I guess I just didn’t see a need to make him expendable. He filled a much larger role than Reaves playing 3rd line during the Cup run. He only made 900K. We paid Kyle Clifford more money a year later to fill the same role but not as well. Less than ideal.



He would have put up 60 points the year before if not for Covid. I wish he was a bit more consistent but he’s a very good 200 foot player that can be a 55-60 point guy. He’s pretty much Alex Steen.



The last sentence is the big part. He tried replacing Pietrangelo before he was even gone. Just re-sign Pietrangelo. Keep your Cup core and strength together. That should have been priority number one.

There was no need to bring in a 3rd good RH dman on a big contract. That wasn’t a glaring weakness coming off the Cup win. It was like the last thing we needed. It always felt like Army was legit just collecting a player to show Petro that we had the pieces to move on.


Any 3rd or 4th line player who is a veteran should by definition, IMO, be expendable. They're just a guy at that point. I get the sentimental tie with Maroon, but him leaving doesn't make or break the team. Really nice guy and a local player, but he'd blocking room for younger players.

Schwartz, for both 2018-2019 and 2020-2021, when extrapolating for a full 82 game season, was on pace for 42 and 43 points for the season. That is not worth top 6 $. And I acknowledge his shooting % was super snake bit and low in 2018-2019(with the PO run likely making up for some of it as it was really high). I do not see him aging well offensively. Defensively, he should be OK. But I don't want to take that risk. Also think it's not right to compare him to Steen given that Steen could play C (he started playing more W), while Schwartz doesn't.

I don't think he tried replacing Petro outright with Faulk. I think he traded for Faulk to improve the roster as it was currently constructed. What I don't get is the timing of his contract extension, as well as Schenn's and Scandella's. Petro should've been priority #1 to keep, but I don't think Armstrong immediately traded for Faulk believing Petro was a goner.

Remember, Faulk didn't play RD when he was brought in. He was brought in as a LD to be an upgrade over Edmundson and was paired with Petro. He moved over to RD after Petro left. You could argue that that doesn't make sense since Faulk is better on RD(which I don't disagree with), but that's how he was used initially. Additionally, Bouwmeester and Gunnar were older and both have since retired. And if going with the argument that Faulk was brought in as a longterm upgrade for LD and attrition would let Dunn move up in the lineup as a regular, I could see where Armstrong was going.



I’m sorry but this taking point always drives me nuts.

Even if you believe every move is independent in a lot of situations (Which is a silly mindset to have as a GM: acquiring pure value doesn’t win you a cup, the right fits do), there is no way to argue they are independent here.

He trades for a Right Hand Defensemen, and immediately signs him to a 6 x 6.5 contract. That locks us into 12 million dollars a year on just the right side going into the next free agency. Which just so happens to be the year you franchise defensemen, also a RHD, is entering free agency. The move at the time was viewed as a warning sign Petro would be gone next year, and it concerned us. The fact that we lost him just continues the point. But we still have people sayin my it’s not Army’s fault, due to a slew of reasons. My counter to that is no matter how you look at the move, it still looks awful for Armstrong imo.

Option A: Armstrong made the Faulk trade without actually thinking of the Petro angle at all. It was purely a win now move done in an attempt to go back to back.

My Response: In that case he cut off his nose to spite his face. If he chose that year to push all in on, why do it with Faulk and no try to shore up the 2nd LHD spot? While a minor upgrade to the 3rd Pair RHD spot would have been nice, it wasn’t a gigantic need either. Also, any GM making that type of move without thinking about the big picture is a giant problem for his team.

Option B: The Faulk trade was an insurance policy to make sure if Petro did walk, we were covered. And he did! Isn’t Army smart!

My response: Does the phrase “Self-Fulfilling Prophecy” mean anything to you? Because that’s what this created. Not only if I was in Petro’s position would I take this as a sign that they might be ready to let me walk, it also backed us up into a corner: We can’t have 22 million locked up just on our Right Hand Side can we? This move maybe, MAYBE works if Petro is a restricted free agent, and your lowering his price tag, but not when he’s Unrestricted. It’s just gonna lead to him walking and is wondering how the hell we are gonna push forward without a full rebuild.

Option C: Obviously Army’s plan was to play Faulk on the Left Side, like they did with Carolina. We are basically getting Bouws long term replacement, not Petros

My response: This argument almost makes sense other then A: Faulk never looked good playing on his off side for us and B: When Bouw went down we immediately panicked and traded for and extended Scandella.

Option D: Army had came to the conclusion we wouldn’t miss Petro much, and made the move knowing he would most likely not be here after the next year

My response: Then he’s flat dumb, and believes he is way smarter then he actually is. No other thoughts, just simple.

Option E: Army was totally against giving Petro that No Movement Clause and accepted that he needed to be prepped for when Petro wouldn’t bend on it

My response: We will never be able to retain an elite player without No Movement Clauses in today’s game. Full stop. Our only way to contend is to rebuild completely and just hope we draft great and win before they hit UFA.

So yeah. Don’t buy it.

You won't see me defending the timing of the Faulk extension. It didn't make sense when it happened given Petro's situation. Same with Scandella's extension(I like him, but he was extended midseason after playing a handful of games). And the reason why I'll continue saying Faulk's move had little to no impact on Petro is look at how Armstrong handled the offseason. Both Allen and Steen contracts would've been larger hurdles to deal with-regardless of Faulk's extension-for keeping Petro. Allen was traded and I think Steen would've been LTIR'd regardless, leaving Allen's contract as really the only major obstacle. If the intention was to let Petro leave, I don't think Allen would've been traded.

Re: NMC-Armstrong is a shrewd GM. He has a price and value for every player that he feels comfortable with and is not afraid of making tough decisions that have large emotional connections. He's shown that with trading EJ and Backes.

You also have to think about what Armstrong's doing from a business perspective as well. They didn't use any of the amnesty buyouts nor have they ever bought out a player under Armstrong. Even though I don't think ownership has any financial problems with the Taylors backing the team, the team in a given season will be lucky to break-even without a PO appearance. If a contract became a complete albatross and immovable because of a NMC, that might have a larger impact on a team like the Blues vs a team like the Rangers. The team has a bunch of NTCs(which is a different discussion), but I think the whole no NMC is to protect the organization from contracts going bad on top of Armstrong saving some face with his bosses as he has a fiduciary responsibility.

I think it's also clear Vegas valued Petro more $ wise than Armstrong did, rightfully or wrongfully. I don't think Petro leaves if the Blues match $ with Vegas. Petro got more security with the NMC that he wanted and $ that the Blues did not feel comfortable with. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. I appreciate Petro's time in St. Louis, but he made a business decision. So did the Blues. And life goes on.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Reality Czech

Eldon Reid

Registered User
Dec 13, 2018
1,390
1,324
This again.

Pietrangelo sticking point was a NMC.

To me, a player like that doesn't need a NMC. Your play will keep you around and a NTC is more than enough. Duncan Keith has NMC and asked to be traded closer to home.

It is what it is.
 

TruBlu

Registered User
Feb 7, 2016
6,784
2,923
A NMC protects players from the team. A NMC or NTC means shit for a player wanting to move out. I'm assuming most of the people on this board will still be fans in a few years when Petro's contract would have been a burden. It's a business. It will always hurt at some point. The question is...Do you think this team is a contender currently?
 

Celtic Note

Living the dream
Dec 22, 2006
16,935
5,727
A NMC protects players from the team. A NMC or NTC means shit for a player wanting to move out. I'm assuming most of the people on this board will still be fans in a few years when Petro's contract would have been a burden. It's a business. It will always hurt at some point. The question is...Do you think this team is a contender currently?
I am not sure I agree on it not mattering if the player wants to move out. If they have a NTC they still have cards. If they have a NMC, they have more. Now, they have to play ball with the club to be able to be moved, but they can decline places still. If they are being stubborn the GM can’t force their hand with waivers and being sent down if they have a NMC. So the player still has cards in both instances.
 

Ranksu

Crotch Academy ftw
Sponsor
Apr 28, 2014
19,706
9,330
Lapland
Did I understand this correctly. Was Maroon under Blues team when this crying happened, he didnt get contract in Blues? Really sad if that is case. Just shows what Army is.

 
Apr 30, 2012
21,048
5,420
St. Louis, MO
And yet Faulk was the best dman on the team by far. One of the best Blues players all season and worth every penny if the 6.5. Pie isn’t 3 million better then Faulk, atleast last year,
Couldn’t disagree more. Faulk was excellent for the first 25 games or so, but fell off significantly in the second half of the season.

A good player for sure, but certainly noticeably inferior to an elite level defender in Petro.
 

TruBlu

Registered User
Feb 7, 2016
6,784
2,923
I am not sure I agree on it not mattering if the player wants to move out. If they have a NTC they still have cards. If they have a NMC, they have more. Now, they have to play ball with the club to be able to be moved, but they can decline places still. If they are being stubborn the GM can’t force their hand with waivers and being sent down if they have a NMC. So the player still has cards in both instances.
I would question why a player that is being put on waivers would even have a NMC. Either way, I'm certainly happy we don't have a GM who gives them out.
 

Blueston

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Dec 4, 2016
19,000
19,745
Houston, TX
Couldn’t disagree more. Faulk was excellent for the first 25 games or so, but fell off significantly in the second half of the season.

A good player for sure, but certainly noticeably inferior to an elite level defender in Petro.
His play fell off ounce Parayko got hurt and he had to take on toughest assessments while chained to Krug 25 minutes per night. That said, he was still better than Petro this year and we were hanging with Colorado until Kadri nearly decapitated him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eldon Reid
Apr 30, 2012
21,048
5,420
St. Louis, MO
His play fell off ounce Parayko got hurt and he had to take on toughest assessments while chained to Krug 25 minutes per night. That said, he was still better than Petro this year and we were hanging with Colorado until Kadri nearly decapitated him.
And Petro had a injury+ Covid that he dealt with. I’d still take Petro over Faulk 100 times out to 100.
 

Blueston

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Dec 4, 2016
19,000
19,745
Houston, TX
We lost 4-1 and gave up 50+ shots in Game 1 with our entire defense on the ice for the full game. We were down 3-1 in Game 2 when Faulk got hurt.

We’ve got issues on the blue line
We were unexpectedly playing without Perron. By game 2 we adjusted and we’re pressing Avs when Faulk got knocked out. We had nothing after that.
 

Brian39

Registered User
Apr 24, 2014
7,140
13,104
We were unexpectedly playing without Perron. By game 2 we adjusted and we’re pressing Avs when Faulk got knocked out. We had nothing after that.

We were not hanging with Colorado in game 2 until the Kadri hit. We were down 1-0 within the first minute of the game and were down 2-0 after the 1st period while getting outshot 19-6. We were down 3-0 just three minutes into the 2nd period and then the Avs went squarely into "protect the lead" mode. We scored our first goal with just a few minutes left in the 2nd period and managed 1 shot attempt from below the top of the faceoff circle in the 6 minutes of the 3rd period before the Kadri/Faulk hit. We scored on the 5 minute major after the hit to make it somewhat close, but the Avs quickly scored after the PP to make it a 2 goal game again. Hoffman made it a 1 goal game again with a few minutes left and then the Avs ended it against an empty net.

Colorado controlled that game for 46 minutes before the Kadri hit cracked the door open with a 5 minute PP (while knocking out our #1 D in the process). We had a good second period after getting completely manhandled for the first 83 minutes of a series and our backs against the wall. That period of desperation hockey came when the Avs were playing noticeably conservative and resulted in a single goal to give the Avs a 2 goal lead entering the 3rd. The 10 or so minutes immediately following the Kadri hit is the closest we came to hanging with the Avs in that series.

I agree that losing Perron to COVID suddenly was a huge blow to the team, but we weren't close to Colorado at any point in that series.
 
Last edited:

Ranksu

Crotch Academy ftw
Sponsor
Apr 28, 2014
19,706
9,330
Lapland
A NMC protects players from the team. A NMC or NTC means shit for a player wanting to move out. I'm assuming most of the people on this board will still be fans in a few years when Petro's contract would have been a burden. It's a business. It will always hurt at some point. The question is...Do you think this team is a contender currently?
Krug's and Faulk's contracts will be anchors in couple years.

Having the one Pietro which could be bad 'maybe' at last couple years of that contract, but at least we would kept our Cup window open. Isnt that most important in bigger sceme?

Btw Dom's article how well Pietro would age was interesting too. He viewed Pietro would have aged much better vs other elite dmen. How he plays the game.

NHL agents break down the stalemate between the Blues and Alex Pietrangelo

Screen-Shot-2020-09-22-at-1.50.10-PM-1536x888.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blues Knight

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad