News Article: Dorion says all players but ek and stone available

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Why do you keep trying to force this narrative in? It makes no sense. .

It makes perfect sense.

If you don't think Turris didn't know his contract was coming to an end this coming July, then you're not paying attention.



Turris is a smart guy, and found away out of Arizona.

What makes you think he was not paying attention to the Senators depth at his position?

He knew Derick Brassard, Jean-Gabriel Pageau, Zack Smith, Logan Brown, Filip Chlapík, Nick Paul, Colin White, Drake Batherson and others were going to be in the organization past his expiring contract.

He knew this was leverage Dorion could use in negotiations, and also that his impending UFA status gave him leverage to get perhaps his one last big payday contract.

It did not take a Brain scientist to figure out he was going to play hard ball for a contract to secure his family's future, and if not Ottawa them wherever.

Turris knew his value was going to be higher somewhere else, and he got what he probably wanted all along with Nashville, good for him, I've meet Turris a number of times, and know that his family is important to him, and this new contract is probably the best thing for them.

 

[JoeSakic]

Keep dropping those matter of fact points on us TNUOC ALUCARD. Glad you can see inside Turris head.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

So far, Duchene hasn't been better though. That's a big part of the problem. We paid a big premium and got worse for it. Maybe Duchene turns it around, I think he can, and maybe he plays better than Turris, but we still give up a lot for a modest (on paper) improvement.

The problem isn't liking Duchene more than Turris, it's thinking the difference between the two is enough to justify the cost. So far, it's backfired in a spectacular way, there is no getting around that.

Do you honestly believe Ottawa would have been in a Playoff position today, if the Turris trade had not been done?

If you do then I don't know what to say.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Keep dropping those matter of fact points on us TNUOC ALUCARD. Glad you can see inside Turris head.

Do you mean like all those "fans" who claim Melnyk, Dorion and Boucher always lie about everything all the time?


Try putting yourself in Turris' position .......... take into consideration his (probably) one shot at becoming an UFA and ca$hing in big time and big term.

Take into consideration the younger Centers in Ottawa's system and his own Value to Ottawa vs another team.

I think he's pretty happy where he is now, and good for him.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

So what's the conspiracy here? A pending free agent tried to get as much as he could? Scandal!

 

[BondraTime]

I like the constant use of "fans" in a play of superiority. Really hammers the point home....

 

[Micklebot]

It makes perfect sense.

If you don't think Turris didn't know his contract was coming to an end this coming July, then you're not paying attention.



Turris is a smart guy, and found away out of Arizona.

What makes you think he was not paying attention to the Senators depth at his position?

He knew Derick Brassard, Jean-Gabriel Pageau, Zack Smith, Logan Brown, Filip Chlapík, Nick Paul, Colin White, Drake Batherson and others were going to be in the organization past his expiring contract.

He knew this was leverage Dorion could use in negotiations, and also that his impending UFA status gave him leverage to get perhaps his one last big payday contract.

It did not take a Brain scientist to figure out he was going to play hard ball for a contract to secure his family's future, and if not Ottawa them wherever.

Turris knew his value was going to be higher somewhere else, and he got what he probably wanted all along with Nashville, good for him, I've meet Turris a number of times, and know that his family is important to him, and this new contract is probably the best thing for them.

You're not even responding to my criticism. You suggested Turris should have offered Ottawa the first right of refusal, this doesn't make sense as it required both Ottawa and Turris to be negotiating in bad faith with Nashville. It's quite frankly nonsense.

As to your comments about all the other centers; Pageau is a third liner, not really a threat to Turris. Brassard should be viewed as a transitional piece as he's getting up their in age. Yes, his contract goes an extra year, but the team would be foolish to choose him over Turris. Smith has been converted to Wing, and is at best a 3rd line center. He poses no threat to Turris. Paul? Are you serious? come on now.... Batherson is years away, White isn't ready and may end up being a winger rather than a center. His upside is 2nd liner though, so he's not exactly a short term threat either. Chlapik and Brown are the only guys who could pose a threat to the 2nd line center role, which at the moment is far more of a threat to Brassard.

In the end, Turris wanted a fair deal, and got one from Nashville. Had he been offered and signed a fair deal here, he'd have been able to carry on as our top 6 center until somebody played their way ahead of him. Odds are Brass would have been first one deemed expendable, not Turris but in the even that he'd have been surpassed, the team could have explored trading him at that point from a position of strength instead of throwing away assets for a minor improvement.

 

[Micklebot]

Do you honestly believe Ottawa would have been in a Playoff position today, if the Turris trade had not been done?

If you do then I don't know what to say.

We have no idea what would have happened, though I do find it highly unlikely Turris' production would have been as bad as Duchene's and even if it was, I'd much rather still have our 1st round pick and Turris than a struggling Duchene and no pick.

 

[JoeSakic]

Do you mean like all those "fans" who claim Melnyk, Dorion and Boucher always lie about everything all the time?


Try putting yourself in Turris' position .......... take into consideration his (probably) one shot at becoming an UFA and ca$hing in big time and big term.

Take into consideration the younger Centers in Ottawa's system and his own Value to Ottawa vs another team.

I think he's pretty happy where he is now, and good for him.

So let me get this straight... It's ok for you to infer points and positions on Turris using logic and common sense yet when folks do the same in discussions about Melnyk and Dorion you are always claiming that those fans arguments are null and void because they are using logic and common sense.

Hence my question as to why bother having a discussion with you.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I like the constant use of "fans" in a play of superiority. Really hammers the point home....

Fake fans. Its all the public servants spreading their lies. They don't know business like TA. Sad!

 

[Micklebot]

So let me get this straight... It's ok for you to infer points and positions on Turris using logic and common sense yet when folks do the same in discussions about Melnyk and Dorion you are always claiming that those fans arguments are null and void because they are using logic and common sense.

Hence my question as to why bother having a discussion with you.

You got that all wrong, it's "fans" not fans...

 

[slamigo]

We have no idea what would have happened, though I do find it highly unlikely Turris' production would have been as bad as Duchene's and even if it was, I'd much rather still have our 1st round pick and Turris than a struggling Duchene and no pick.

Only if Turris had any intention of signing in Ottawa. And now we'll never know, but judging by the tweets from Turris and his wife, it doesn't look like that was going to happen. Again, we'll probably never know.
I still am cautioning people to be patient with Duchene. I really think he will be a great player. I think the timing of the catastrophe that is Ottawa's season and his arrival are purely coincidental and would likely have happened whether Turris stayed or left. I'm quite bullish on Duchene. I think he's just in an unfortunate spot with Ottawa tanking right now.
But one thing is obvious, something (coaching?, ownership?, bad apple in the lockeroom?, countryclub atmosphere?, etc) is happening in Ottawa and eventually we (fans) will find out. Could be years from now, but something is going wrong inside that organization and it will surface.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Negotiations with Turris began July 1st.

You or I don't know how the negotiations transpired, except for the public statements made by both parties.


Everyone, including Turris, knew that once the season began with Turris signed to an extension, that his "trade clock" was ticking.......... and at the latest, would be gone at the TDD. His value was diminishing the closer TDD approached, so Dorion made the trade, as to NOT lose him for less, or nothing.

In the end, Turris wanted more than Ottawa was prepared to give a player, who will be 29 years old once his new 6 year deal starts, so the trade that everyone know was coming happened.

You don't know the "effort" put forward by Ottawa, and don't know what another GM would have been able to do.

He clearly has an agenda and won’t listen to reason.

 

[Micklebot]

Only if Turris had any intention of signing in Ottawa. And now we'll never know, but judging by the tweets from Turris and his wife, it doesn't look like that was going to happen. Again, we'll probably never know.
I still am cautioning people to be patient with Duchene. I really think he will be a great player. I think the timing of the catastrophe that is Ottawa's season and his arrival are purely coincidental and would likely have happened whether Turris stayed or left. I'm quite bullish on Duchene. I think he's just in an unfortunate spot with Ottawa tanking right now.
But one thing is obvious, something (coaching?, ownership?, bad apple in the lockeroom?, countryclub atmosphere?, etc) is happening in Ottawa and eventually we (fans) will find out. Could be years from now, but something is going wrong inside that organization and it will surface.

Turris and his wife's comments make it seem like they wanted to stay, but are blaming ownership for the move. That doesn't sound like someone that didn't want to sign to me. I guess you could argue that he was being unreasonable with the request for 7 or 8 years, but so is sticking with 5. The team imo is the one responsible for pushing things to the middle ground, not the player. Turris can wait it out and get 6 years from any team come UFA, Ottawa can't force 5 years, so it has to be more flexible if they truly had any interest in re-signing Turris.

I like Duchene, I really do, but I don't think this swap was the right move. I'd have preferred we traded Ceci for Duchene, and I like Ceci far more than most seem to around here. To me, this move didn't address a need. Trading Ceci would have opened up a hole (hopefully filled by Chabot), but it would have given us a really strong top 6.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Only if Turris had any intention of signing in Ottawa. And now we'll never know, but judging by the tweets from Turris and his wife, it doesn't look like that was going to happen. Again, we'll probably never know.
I still am cautioning people to be patient with Duchene. I really think he will be a great player. I think the timing of the catastrophe that is Ottawa's season and his arrival are purely coincidental and would likely have happened whether Turris stayed or left. I'm quite bullish on Duchene. I think he's just in an unfortunate spot with Ottawa tanking right now.
But one thing is obvious, something (coaching?, ownership?, bad apple in the lockeroom?, countryclub atmosphere?, etc) is happening in Ottawa and eventually we (fans) will find out. Could be years from now, but something is going wrong inside that organization and it will surface.

Pretty damn sure the forefront of it all is the owner.

 

[JD1]

Not really. Dorion put out an offer of 5 years, Turris camp countered with an 8-year. The ball was in Dorion's court. Also knowing that Duchene was a target for a long time...you don't need a smoking gun every single time to connect the dots.

idk know man. Turris is a poor mans 1C but a solid 2C. He got decent money for what he brings with his 6 by 6 deal. Not super money but decent. But the way ufa deals are going and the near 100 % situation of UFAs not living up to their deals Turris just isn't the guy I'd go 6 years with. And I honestly hope it becomes more of a pattern, meaning teams limiting how far they will go, because these types of deals as a pattern hurt the smaller revenue stream teams which we are.

 

[JD1]

Last year:
- the power play was abysmal,
- the PK was bottom 3rd in the league,
- We were bottom 3rd in possession metrics,
- Bottom third in scoring chance data,

All that, but we had great goaltending (top 10 at 5v5, and all situations), and Karlsson was a monster.

I don't think anyone is ignoring last season, except perhaps those that want to pretend everything was peachy keen last year. Yes, we lasted 3 rounds in the playoffs, beat an injury depleted Boston, a flawed Rangers team, and lasted 7 games against a Pens team missing Letang and playing their backup goalie for half the series. But lets be honest with ourselves here; we did that on the strength of Karlsson's out of this world play and some timely contributions from the supporting cast, not superior coaching. All through the playoffs, the same issues kept coming up. We'd give up leads late in games, we'd sit back in a defensive shell far too early, we sucked on the PP.

Put it this way, go ahead and name all the things that you can attribute to quality coaching that this team was doing last year, and heck this year too. Then list all the questionable coaching decisions, and perhaps then we can have a rational conversation about what he brings and doesn't.

I'll even get the ball rolling;
Positive:
- Boucher introduced a system that reduced total shots against (mostly via blocks) and reduced the overall quality of shots against.

Negative:
- Boucher's system drastically reduced the offensive output of the team, even when compared to Cameron's inept system, and despite a defensive oriented system, the team continued to have difficulties with bleeding goals late in games.

well if we are being honest

we went into the playoffs with a much stronger roster than the one that accumulated those stats in the reg season.

but not much point in bringing honesty to a good old fashion pile on is there

lmao

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Why do you folks entertain any discussion with TNUOC ALUCARD? Every conversation is the same - make a point and he calls it assumptions yet his points are concrete facts.

A-fn-Men brotha

 

[Very Stable Genius]

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

No no. He is a legitimate top 4 defender. Give him 6 more years. Defenceman take longer to develop.

 

[Micklebot]

well if we are being honest

we went into the playoffs with a much stronger roster than the one that accumulated those stats in the reg season.

but not much point in bringing honesty to a good old fashion pile on is there

lmao

Much stronger? Added Burrows, Stalberg and Wingels. Cut off part of Methots finger, and broke Karlsson's foot. Strengthening the bottom 6 was certainly key as it got Kelly out of the lineup, but much stronger? That seems like an exaggeration if you ask me.

Actually, I forgot about MacArthur, that's a nice addition and made a big difference to our forward depth.

In the end though, the fact remains that the roster that accumulated those stats is probably pretty similar to the one that started this season, and those stats are still indicative of how this coach runs things. He did some good, like reducing the shots against, and he did some bad, like reducing the quality chances for. We are not as dangerous offensively as we were under McLean's system, but we are less prone to running around in our end (though McLean had a mess for a D corps with one of Cowen/Wiercioch in the top 4 with Ceci. Love him or hate him, Phaneuf is an upgrade over those guys.

Also worth pointing out is that the underlying metrics didn't change after the trade deadline, with the exception of goals against. It's a small sample, 21 games, but most of the shot based stats actually stabilize in that kind of sample, goals based metrics and HDCF% would take longer though. Our Sv% was amazing after the deadline, not sure Wingels, Burrows and Stalberg really were the difference makers on that.

Look, I'm trying to move the conversation towards more than just "we made it far in the playoffs so Boucher is great". I have no issues with you providing something to support why we were better in the playoffs than the reg season, and thus explain why Boucher isn't to blame for us reverting, but that also just supports the claim that he wasn't why we went deep, we just had a better roster.

There were lots of issues people had all of last year with the coaching. This isn't a new complaint. His usage of rookies and his pp, his penchant for sitting back too early in games, the teams penchant for giving up late goals (which most blame on sitting back too early and losing any momentum), these were all present last year, and people rightfully took issue with it, but were willing to ignore because of how deep we went, but they were still issues which haven't gotten any better.

I like some things Boucher did, but dislike other things. I don't think he's the only issue, I've not seen much support for why he's a great coach either. What in your mind is it that supports him being a significant improvement over, lets say McLean? Very different styles, but the results aren't that different imo.

 

[JD1]

Much stronger? Added Burrows, Stalberg and Wingels. Cut off part of Methots finger, and broke Karlsson's foot. Strengthening the bottom 6 was certainly key as it got Kelly out of the lineup, but much stronger? That seems like an exaggeration if you ask me.

Actually, I forgot about MacArthur, that's a nice addition and made a big difference to our forward depth.

In the end though, the fact remains that the roster that accumulated those stats is probably pretty similar to the one that started this season, and those stats are still indicative of how this coach runs things. He did some good, like reducing the shots against, and he did some bad, like reducing the quality chances for. We are not as dangerous offensively as we were under McLean's system, but we are less prone to running around in our end (though McLean had a mess for a D corps with one of Cowen/Wiercioch in the top 4 with Ceci. Love him or hate him, Phaneuf is an upgrade over those guys.

Also worth pointing out is that the underlying metrics didn't change after the trade deadline, with the exception of goals against. It's a small sample, 21 games, but most of the shot based stats actually stabilize in that kind of sample, goals based metrics and HDCF% would take longer though. Our Sv% was amazing after the deadline, not sure Wingels, Burrows and Stalberg really were the difference makers on that.

Look, I'm trying to move the conversation towards more than just "we made it far in the playoffs so Boucher is great". I have no issues with you providing something to support why we were better in the playoffs than the reg season, and thus explain why Boucher isn't to blame for us reverting, but that also just supports the claim that he wasn't why we went deep, we just had a better roster.

There were lots of issues people had all of last year with the coaching. This isn't a new complaint. His usage of rookies and his pp, his penchant for sitting back too early in games, the teams penchant for giving up late goals (which most blame on sitting back too early and losing any momentum), these were all present last year, and people rightfully took issue with it, but were willing to ignore because of how deep we went, but they were still issues which haven't gotten any better.

I like some things Boucher did, but dislike other things. I don't think he's the only issue, I've not seen much support for why he's a great coach either. What in your mind is it that supports him being a significant improvement over, lets say McLean? Very different styles, but the results aren't that different imo.

you missedan Neil and Lazar contributing to the poor regular season metrics. We added Stalberg, Wingels, Burrows and MacArthur heading into the playoffs.

At the TDL we also ran into injury issues and never got healthy until the playoffs. That's how a guy like Kelly played all 82 games album only 2 in the playoffs.

That playoff team was a stronger deeper roster than the regular season. The notion that we were a bubble team that got lucky doesn't reflect the changes made late last year to strengthen what we had. The regular season roster accumulated 98 points and we were stronger than that heading into the playoffs.

This year I thought we were starting weaker than that playoff roster but stronger than the regular season roster. Didn't expect a total collapse from Anderson. Didn't expect the drop off in play from EK. I figured we'd hang around just inside the cut line all year and then see what upgrades were available at the TDL.

as for Maclean personally I liked him. I preferred the style we played under him. But he was a guy that clearly lost the room with several veteran players coming out with issues about a before and after scenario. He changed. Who knows why but the new Walrus got tuned out.

Back to Boucher I just don't think the horses are there this year.

I thought Montreal was in bad shape having lost 3 of their 6 day from last year.

Arguably we've lost 4 of 6.

And our goaltending to boot.

 

[BondraTime]

I don't think the Sens could afford to have Turris as their #1 center, money wise, and expect to contend or make noise. At 3.5, sure, extra cash to strengthen other areas. 6-7, couldn't happen.

I understand the logic of the trade, but the execution was piss poor.

Duchene, like Turris, isn't a guy the Sens can pay to be their #1 center. He isn't capable to fill that role on this budget team. We gave up assets for, at best, a marginal upgrade.

I was fine with giving up Bowers, he's a dime a dozen guy you can get from 25-60 in every draft. \

I wasn't pleased with giving up a 1st that I expected at the time to be ~16-20. Absolutely hate that we gave up a pick in 2019, especially with us looking to unload talent this year.

I have zero clue what we are doing, we've gone from trading two 1st's, three 2nd's, and three 3rd's from 2015-2018, to selling off our roster players.

This includes, of course, the light at the end of the tunnel for teams entering a rebuild, the 1st round pick.

With the Sens shopping our NHL talent in JGP/Hoffman/etc., are we expecting to somehow retool in the off-season? I've been saying for a long time, I really don't see any avenue we can reasonably take that doesn't lead to trouble.

1. We can't properly rebuild, we lack our prized pick (plus ~33 overall this year).

2. We can't rebuild/tank, we have our generational D up for contract renewal. Bye bye Karlsson should we go this route. Refer to point 1.

3. We are an abysmal team, righting the ship with the current personnel both on and off the ice doesn't seem likely to me. We need to rebuild. Refer to points 1-2.

4. Hope to rebound......somehow

They are the only options I see, and each one pretty much contradicts the other.

Extremely depressing.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don't think the Sens could afford to have Turris as their #1 center, money wise, and expect to contend or make noise. At 3.5, sure, extra cash to strengthen other areas. 6-7, couldn't happen.

I understand the logic of the trade, but the execution was piss poor.

Duchene, like Turris, isn't a guy the Sens can pay to be their #1 center. He isn't capable to fill that role on this budget team. We gave up assets for, at best, a marginal upgrade.

I was fine with giving up Bowers, he's a dime a dozen guy you can get from 25-60 in every draft. \

I wasn't pleased with giving up a 1st that I expected at the time to be ~16-20. Absolutely hate that we gave up a pick in 2019, especially with us looking to unload talent this year.

I have zero clue what we are doing, we've gone from trading two 1st's, three 2nd's, and three 3rd's from 2015-2018,

This includes, of course, the light at the end of the tunnel for teams entering a rebuild, the 1st round pick.

With the Sens shopping our NHL talent in JGP/Hoffman/etc., are we expecting to somehow retool in the off-season? I've been saying for a long time, I really don't see any avenue we can reasonably take that doesn't lead to trouble.

1. We can't properly rebuild, we lack our prized pick (plus ~33 overall this year).

2. We can't rebuild/tank, we have our generational D up for contract renewal. Bye bye Karlsson should we go this route. Refer to point 1.

3. We are an abysmal team, righting the ship with the current personnel both on and off the ice doesn't seem likely to me. We need to rebuild. Refer to points 1-2.

4. Hope to rebound......somehow

They are the only options I see, and each one pretty much contradicts the other.

Extremely depressing.

I feel ya .. pretty much echos my thoughts and feelings ... Dug a big hole and looking up from the bottom

 

[lancepitlick]

If Turris did not want to resign here it begs the question: why? He's well liked, gets good minutes, is a pillar of the community. I suspect, if that's even true, it's for the same reason Alfie left twice, which is that our owner and GM are substandard.

If Turris was willing to sign for 6/6 and we traded him, that was patently a stupid trade. Turris' only public comments suggest this was a possibility.

Either way the Senators made a bad trade or the franchise is in such disrepair that players don't want to come here.

None of the above inspires me to support the team or have confidence in their future. Sports is about hope and most Senators fans feel mighty hopeless these days; little wonder they are tarping off seats rather than filling them.