Does Sullivan still have his job?

[larueskee]

Its not Martin but i think Sullivan should be fired. This all started with him benching Ian Cole cause he didn't like him, not playing Ryan Reaves 4th line minutes, refusing to take defenseman who are plugs and sit them in the press box, refusing to use young players properly ( ie. Sprong), and just a arrogant refusal to adjust. Gtfoh

You are right. Sullivan had JR invest big dough in Maata, Dumo and then Schultz. Then he doesn't play Cole who probably stays with the Pens for the term and dolllars they waste on Jack flippin Johnson? Has Sullivan or Jr seen any of the Avs playoffs? THe Avs fans love them some Ian Cole especially after his last game. i am hearing the same word this board used to desribe his play " warrior "

 

[Gurglesons]

Paul McFarland is a guy I would look at to replace Recchi. He was in charge of Florida’s PP.

Stealing my idea!

I’ve been saying this since they fired that staff.

 

[cvrle1]

To all the people saying JR should go, just keep in mind what rumor mill is churning. If he is to go, Guerin would replace him, at least that is the story I heard more than once this season. I dont know about rest of you, but that is even scarier proposition to me. Do we want to be like Isles when Snow was their GM, or Flyers when Hex was theirs? Those teams became laughing stock of the league with those 2 as GMs. It's not like Pens have Botterill in the wings any more, waiting to take over. Those days are long gone.

 

[vikingGoalie]

The thing is *this* defense, minus Letang/Dumo for a spell played very very good structured defense. The problem is not Letang/Dumo. The problem is that for things to work the team has to play as a whole. ANY defense will be suspect if your forwards are skating into a trapping team and turning the puck over in the NZ/O-blue line and the other team coming at your defense with speed and maybe numbers.
Most of our problems are structure and discipline related, not personnel. Our forwards play a 200 foot game and take what the game dictates and not make stupid decisions over and over, we probably are winning the series against the Isle instead of off golfing.

Thing is it's exactly the game that Sullivan has been preaching to these guys, and they have tuned him out. To forecheck hard and play 200ft takes a big commitment from your players. I don't think they are unable to do it, I think they just are doing their own thing out there.

I think Sullivan is a good coach, and really there is no one out there that I can think of that is better and available. BUT he is on a timer now we look like crap next year and he will be gone. Other then roster changes I don't see any of the coaching staff fired, mainly because Recchi and Martin are Mario's friends. Perhaps they might get moved into another position in the organization. But it seems unlikely, even if the assistants (other then Gonchar) should go.

 

[Khelandros]

To all the people saying JR should go, just keep in mind what rumor mill is churning. If he is to go, Guerin would replace him, at least that is the story I heard more than once this season. I dont know about rest of you, but that is even scarier proposition to me. Do we want to be like Isles when Snow was their GM, or Flyers when Hex was theirs? Those teams became laughing stock of the league with those 2 as GMs. It's not like Pens have Botterill in the wings any more, waiting to take over. Those days are long gone.

Comparing Guerin to Snow is just...wow. Snow went from stopping pucks at practice on a Monday to being GM of the Isles on a Tuesday. He had no management experience at all. You forgot to mention other players that became GM's as well. Yzerman in Tampa seems to have built a pretty decent team, Doug Wilson in San Jose, Bob Murray (before this year) in Anaheim, Joe Sakic in Colorado.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm going to roll back a stance I've had based on some new information I've learned. I definitely think there is a 0% chance that JR gets fired, but I think there is a small, but real, chance that Sullivan gets fired. The big reason for that? His contract status, he signed a 3 year contract that started after the 2017 cup. That means his contract is done after next season, which is a big factor to consider. Teams usually don't like having "lame duck" coaches, most teams re-sign their coaches before the last years of their contracts. Do you see them giving Sullivan an extension after these playoffs?

I think there is a small chance he gets fired this off-season, but a much bigger chance that he's not retained after next season or fired during next season. I think he'd only get fired if they have a good alternative to Sullivan available, such as if John Cooper gets fired (he won't get fired, his extension hasn't even kicked in yet). They would use his contract status more than the on ice results to justify it. I doubt they'd do that unless they can get someone like Cooper or Laviolette, though. You have to remember that despite Sullivan's flaws, his system is pretty much perfect for the Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Kessel core.

With that being said, Martin should 100% be fired and Recchi should have never been hired in the first place. I blame Martin for a majority of this team's defensive issues and Recchi is horribly unqualified to be the forwards coach.

 

[pistolpete11]

The thing is *this* defense, minus Letang/Dumo for a spell played very very good structured defense. The problem is not Letang/Dumo. The problem is that for things to work the team has to play as a whole. ANY defense will be suspect if your forwards are skating into a trapping team and turning the puck over in the NZ/O-blue line and the other team coming at your defense with speed and maybe numbers.
Most of our problems are structure and discipline related, not personnel. Our forwards play a 200 foot game and take what the game dictates and not make stupid decisions over and over, we probably are winning the series against the Isle instead of off golfing.

The forwards need to help the defensemen, but the defensemen need to help the forwards. Too many of the defensemen are not capable of quickly transitioning to offense. Especially against the Islanders, it results in the forwards having to go through 4-5 guys every time to get into the offensive zone. That can be taxing physically and mentally especially for skilled guys like Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel who don't love to play the dump-and-chase game. We've seen throughout their careers what happens. They get frustrated, start forcing plays, turn the puck over, and then you have odd-mean breaks the other way.

It's coaching related, too, but I don't think JMFJ or Gudbranson have it in them to quickly transition to offense. I have other concerns with Maatta. Petterson is OK if he's in the Dumo role on the pairing, but if he's paired with Gudbranson? That's not a recipe for success IMO.

 

[Pens x]

To those of you who keep saying we shouldn’t fire Sullivan because you don’t know who you’d replace him with:

Were you lobbying for Mike Sullivan to take over for disco?

Also, it seems foolish to go into the season with the mindset that if Sullivan continues to suck (for the third straight year) we can just fire him mid-season. You aren’t going to find a replacement in January, so you will be stuck with the Wilkes Barre coach or one of Sullivan’s awful assistants.

It’s not working - end it

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

Sullivan isn't the problem. The GM not listening to the coach's needs is the problem.

 

[pistolpete11]

I'm going to roll back a stance I've had based on some new information I've learned. I definitely think there is a 0% chance that JR gets fired, but I think there is a small, but real, chance that Sullivan gets fired. The big reason for that? His contract status, he signed a 3 year contract that started after the 2017 cup. That means his contract is done after next season, which is a big factor to consider. Teams usually don't like having "lame duck" coaches, most teams re-sign their coaches before the last years of their contracts. Do you see them giving Sullivan an extension after these playoffs?

I think there is a small chance he gets fired this off-season, but a much bigger chance that he's not retained after next season or fired during next season. I think he'd only get fired if they have a good alternative to Sullivan available, such as if John Cooper gets fired (he won't get fired, his extension hasn't even kicked in yet). They would use his contract status more than the on ice results to justify it. I doubt they'd do that unless they can get someone like Cooper or Laviolette, though. You have to remember that despite Sullivan's flaws, his system is pretty much perfect for the Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Kessel core.

With that being said, Martin should 100% be fired and Recchi should have never been hired in the first place. I blame Martin for a majority of this team's defensive issues and Recchi is horribly unqualified to be the forwards coach.

This is a good point. The last thing I want to see is an extension this offseason, though. I'd rather have a lame duck coach than extend a guy that the players might have tuned out. It worked out for the Caps last year.

Either fire him or go into next season as a 'prove-it' type of year. You can always offer him an extension in-season if it looks like things have been worked out. If he ends up walking like Trotz, oh well. It's not the end of the world.

 

[Pens x]

Hopefully, Mario stops with the cronyism in his hires, and he actually hires qualified candidates. Playing for the Penguins in the 1990’s shouldn’t be the only requirement to get a job working for this team.

 

[Gurglesons]

The thing is *this* defense, minus Letang/Dumo for a spell played very very good structured defense. The problem is not Letang/Dumo. The problem is that for things to work the team has to play as a whole. ANY defense will be suspect if your forwards are skating into a trapping team and turning the puck over in the NZ/O-blue line and the other team coming at your defense with speed and maybe numbers.
Most of our problems are structure and discipline related, not personnel. Our forwards play a 200 foot game and take what the game dictates and not make stupid decisions over and over, we probably are winning the series against the Isle instead of off golfing.

Thing is it's exactly the game that Sullivan has been preaching to these guys, and they have tuned him out. To forecheck hard and play 200ft takes a big commitment from your players. I don't think they are unable to do it, I think they just are doing their own thing out there.

I think Sullivan is a good coach, and really there is no one out there that I can think of that is better and available. BUT he is on a timer now we look like crap next year and he will be gone. Other then roster changes I don't see any of the coaching staff fired, mainly because Recchi and Martin are Mario's friends. Perhaps they might get moved into another position in the organization. But it seems unlikely, even if the assistants (other then Gonchar) should go.

While Guerin may and probably will suck. We need fresh eyes on this team. JR is a root issue here.

 

[Shockmaster]

Sullivan isn't the problem. The GM not listening to the coach's needs is the problem.

Could easily say the coach isn't adapting to the players he has.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

Could easily say the coach isn't adapting to the players he has.

You mean awful players?

 

[Pens x]

While Guerin may and probably will suck. We need fresh eyes on this team. JR is a root issue here.

What, you don’t want a GM that has Maatta, Gudbranson and Johnson as half of our defense?

 

[cvrle1]

Comparing Guerin to Snow is just...wow. Snow went from stopping pucks at practice on a Monday to being GM of the Isles on a Tuesday. He had no management experience at all. You forgot to mention other players that became GM's as well. Yzerman in Tampa seems to have built a pretty decent team, Doug Wilson in San Jose, Bob Murray (before this year) in Anaheim, Joe Sakic in Colorado.

Thats fair enough point, at least about Yzerman and maybe Sakic. Not sure I would compare situation of Willson and Murray to Guerin as they got into GM roles in much different era. In terms of Sakic, Colorado under him was horrible for 1st 3 seasons, they were worse and worse if you look at their record. In 16/17 they finished dead last with 48 points. Not really a team I would like pens to try and replicate. It was only after they got Bednar, and got rid of Roy that they started turning it around. Sakic made some eyebrow raising trades, he was generally seen as a failure and fans wanted him gone. They qualified for playoffs last year, and lost in the 1st round, after missing playoffs for 3 years before. Again, not really a record I would like pens to replicate.

 

[EVGENIMERLIN]

I'm going to roll back a stance I've had based on some new information I've learned. I definitely think there is a 0% chance that JR gets fired, but I think there is a small, but real, chance that Sullivan gets fired. The big reason for that? His contract status, he signed a 3 year contract that started after the 2017 cup. That means his contract is done after next season, which is a big factor to consider. Teams usually don't like having "lame duck" coaches, most teams re-sign their coaches before the last years of their contracts. Do you see them giving Sullivan an extension after these playoffs?

I think there is a small chance he gets fired this off-season, but a much bigger chance that he's not retained after next season or fired during next season. I think he'd only get fired if they have a good alternative to Sullivan available, such as if John Cooper gets fired (he won't get fired, his extension hasn't even kicked in yet). They would use his contract status more than the on ice results to justify it. I doubt they'd do that unless they can get someone like Cooper or Laviolette, though. You have to remember that despite Sullivan's flaws, his system is pretty much perfect for the Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Kessel core.

With that being said, Martin should 100% be fired and Recchi should have never been hired in the first place. I blame Martin for a majority of this team's defensive issues and Recchi is horribly unqualified to be the forwards coach.

I think Sully is on the hot seat and he knows it. His presser, to me at least, gave the impression he felt like the team quit on him. I don't think it happens in the off-season, but if the team is struggling in December he's gone.

What new info did you get that makes you think JR is safe? Was this another issue where he wanted guys played and Sully refused? I remember HCMJ did that with Scuderi

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think Sully is on the hot seat and he knows it. His presser, to me at least, gave the impression he felt like the team quit on him. I don't think it happens in the off-season, but if the team is struggling in December he's gone.

What new info did you get that makes you think JR is safe? Was this another issue where he wanted guys played and Sully refused? I remember HCMJ did that with Scuderi

JR just signed a contract, so they won't fire him because they'll still on the hook for that deal. It's the same reason I don't think Cooper will get fired, his new extension hasn't even started yet.

 

[Shockmaster]

You mean awful players?

They're gonna look bad if Sullivan wants them playing exactly like they did in 2016.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'd "promote" JR to President of Hockey Ops, let Morehouse be CEO or whatever, and promote xxx to GM. Problem is xxx is Guerin and that sound like an awful idea. No idea why they didn't promote Botts but I'm sure there is more behind the scenes there.

On the coaching side, I think Sully is a good coach and while it's possible the players have tuned him out, I don't think Sid has. Fire the assistants to get fresh blood and ideas in the room, and give Sully the style of players he wants to make his team successful. If it struggles out of the gate, fire him mid season.

Again though, problem is WBS doesn't have the coaching pipeline ready for the NHL soon. Not an easy situation across the board. The succession planning of this org got jacked up when they focused on win now only and they lost their eyes on the near and distant future IMO.

 

[Shady Machine]

Comparing Guerin to Snow is just...wow. Snow went from stopping pucks at practice on a Monday to being GM of the Isles on a Tuesday. He had no management experience at all. You forgot to mention other players that became GM's as well. Yzerman in Tampa seems to have built a pretty decent team, Doug Wilson in San Jose, Bob Murray (before this year) in Anaheim, Joe Sakic in Colorado.

We don't know anything for sure, but WBS was a well oiled machine and consistent playoff contender with Botts at the helm. Guerin gets in there and they have struggled, relatively speaking. Plus he seems to prefer big dudes over skating (generalizing here). My concern is what type of team does he want to build and does it fit with the one Sully and the stars want to play?

Botts hasn't had instant success in Buffalo, but he's made a lot of good trades during his tenure there so far and they seem to fit with the kind of trades JR was making in 2016 and 2017. Makes you wonder how much influence he had on JR and how much influence Guerin has on JR since Botts left.

 

[Shady Machine]

JR just signed a contract, so they won't fire him because they'll still on the hook for that deal. It's the same reason I don't think Cooper will get fired, his new extension hasn't even started yet.

They could "promote" him. Not sure if he's open to that though. I agree it's probably unlikely he goes, but I think it might be in the team's best interest.

 

[Peat]

Again though, problem is WBS doesn't have the coaching pipeline ready for the NHL soon. Not an easy situation across the board. The succession planning of this org got jacked up when they focused on win now only and they lost their eyes on the near and distant future IMO.

I think Clark Donatelli's employment status will be a very good weathercock for the org's feelings on Sully. Firing him and appointing a more NHL ready coach to WBS would be a very loud expression of disapproval.

 

[Pens x]

We don't know anything for sure, but WBS was a well oiled machine and consistent playoff contender with Botts at the helm. Guerin gets in there and they have struggled, relatively speaking. Plus he seems to prefer big dudes over skating (generalizing here). My concern is what type of team does he want to build and does it fit with the one Sully and the stars want to play?

Botts hasn't had instant success in Buffalo, but he's made a lot of good trades during his tenure there so far and they seem to fit with the kind of trades JR was making in 2016 and 2017. Makes you wonder how much influence he had on JR and how much influence Guerin has on JR since Botts left.

The O’Reilly trade was probably one of the worst trades in the NHL over the last decade. Buffalo fans don’t seem that happy with Botts. He’s done a commendable job tanking over the last 2 seasons.

I just don’t know how you can assume Botts was the one that made the good trades. Everything did kind of go to hell after he left, though. I don’t know if that’s a coincidence.

But I question anyone’s judgment that made that O’Reilly trade.

 

[BladeRunner66]

To answer OP. Looks like players made sure the job wasn't done so coach loses his.

Time for fresh air, on and off-ice.