Does no one else question..

[613Leafer]

Ok. So Shanahan has one year of experience, and in that year, under his watch, The Leafs had one of their worst seasons in franchise history. In 2 years if the Leafs miss the playoffs that means 3 straight years of losing under Brendan Shanahan. After 3 straight years of losing does that mean that Shanahan is still doing things "the right way"? Or does it mean that he's incompetent?

The great thing about sports is that the only thing matters is your record. Shanahan can talk all he wants and try and buy as much time as he wants, but at the end of the day there is only one thing that matters. If the Leafs don't make the playoffs by the end of year 3 of Shannys term then he should be fired.

Shanny has done 2 things in his tenure with the Leafs.. A lot of talking and a lot of losing.

It takes YEARS to change the core of a team and alter the trajectory of a team that had 6-7+ guys signed longterm and had finished bottom 10 for six of the previous seven seasons.

Put Holland, Yzerman, etc as GM of the Leafs over the past season, and would they have made the team a good team immediately without hurting their longterm competitiveness? I dont think so, not even remotely.

Right now we have to judge the organization based on the longterm trajectory and direction of the franchise. Our cap situation is improving, our farm system is night and day better than it was, and our NHL team isnt all that much worse (because you ultimately cant do much worse than the consistent bottom 10 finishes we had). At least now we'll be losing with capspace and an ever deepening farm system.

 

[legendinblue]

Not concerned whatsoever. Where did Burke get us with all his experience?

 

[leafs in five]

Ok. So Shanahan has one year of experience, and in that year, under his watch, The Leafs had one of their worst seasons in franchise history. In 2 years if the Leafs miss the playoffs that means 3 straight years of losing under Brendan Shanahan. After 3 straight years of losing does that mean that Shanahan is still doing things "the right way"? Or does it mean that he's incompetent?

The great thing about sports is that the only thing matters is your record. Shanahan can talk all he wants and try and buy as much time as he wants, but at the end of the day there is only one thing that matters. If the Leafs don't make the playoffs by the end of year 3 of Shannys term then he should be fired.

Shanny has done 2 things in his tenure with the Leafs.. A lot of talking and a lot of losing.

here's to more losing in the immediate future.

 

[Liminality]

Ok. So Shanahan has one year of experience, and in that year, under his watch, The Leafs had one of their worst seasons in franchise history. In 2 years if the Leafs miss the playoffs that means 3 straight years of losing under Brendan Shanahan. After 3 straight years of losing does that mean that Shanahan is still doing things "the right way"? Or does it mean that he's incompetent?

The great thing about sports is that the only thing matters is your record. Shanahan can talk all he wants and try and buy as much time as he wants, but at the end of the day there is only one thing that matters. If the Leafs don't make the playoffs by the end of year 3 of Shannys term then he should be fired.

Shanny has done 2 things in his tenure with the Leafs.. A lot of talking and a lot of losing.

What does it matter if the leafs had their worst season in recent memory, this isn't Shanahan's team yet. This is why he's dismantling the core right? Seems pretty obvious to most people that he had to evaluate and then do his work. The team that bombed was Nonis's team. I'm sure you would have loved to have Shanahan finish his evaluation at the start of the season last year when they had a winning record. He would have added to this flawed core and we'd be in deeper trouble than we already are. But that would be okay because we'd be winning more games and that's all that matters right?
You might want to switch teams to cheer for if you haven't already because there's going to be a lot of losing and growing pains in the coming years. Something that's been needed for years.

 

[gravyface]

To me, all the moves up until the Kessel trade were an A. The latter has me concerned that we won't be able to get full or even 80% of our core players' value in any future trades after the fleecing that was the Kessel deal: not for trying, but because the league now knows that we'll take anything we can get for the remaining players.

 

[BlueBaron]

Ok. So Shanahan has one year of experience, and in that year, under his watch, The Leafs had one of their worst seasons in franchise history. In 2 years if the Leafs miss the playoffs that means 3 straight years of losing under Brendan Shanahan. After 3 straight years of losing does that mean that Shanahan is still doing things "the right way"? Or does it mean that he's incompetent?

The great thing about sports is that the only thing matters is your record. Shanahan can talk all he wants and try and buy as much time as he wants, but at the end of the day there is only one thing that matters. If the Leafs don't make the playoffs by the end of year 3 of Shannys term then he should be fired.

Shanny has done 2 things in his tenure with the Leafs.. A lot of talking and a lot of losing.

So you are going to hold losing against him when we are rebuilding ? Ok then...

Maybe it is the only thing that matters to you but to most of us we want the Cup and to do that most of us agree they have to build a foundation and that will come at the price of on ice success in the short term. You may want quick fixes so we can squeeze into the playoffs but I'd rather do this thing right and have a long term contender.

Also he has done more than two things, you are just being selectively negative.

 

[Nithoniniel]

...the fact that Shanahan (has never been a GM, no managerial experience at any level. Not even being groomed like Yzerman), Dubas (28, no NHL managerial experience and to a lesser extent Hunter (a top scout and talent evaluator), are now the ones making major managerial decisions for this team for now and going forward.

Let me just say, I am a big supporter of what is going on here and have been clamouring for a rebuild for many years, since before Burke took over. Shanny, Dubas, Hunter and on down. I am a big fan of all 3 so far. Babcock too.

However, this talk of patience to bring in a GM and wanting to fit one in to their management structure is looking less and less true by the day. Are they even interviewing for GM anymore? See here's the thing, once you get a taste of power and control (Shanny) it starts to taste real good and you want more and more and want to give away less and less. Shanny has become the defacto GM, on top of his many other duties, and that's not looking like it's changing any time soon.

Is everyone comfortable with this? Personally I am not and hope they get this sorted sooner rather than later because it's my personal opinion that they aren't just dragging their heels on this one it's more like they don't want to have someone come in at all.

I don't see the logic with the bolded.

Shanahan says they'll be patient and take their time finding the right GM. They're doing just that, so how could we possible know whether or not they are still on course? We can't, so there's no reason to presume anything has changed.

(Queue a certain poster coming in talking about how we have evidence that nothing will happen since nothing has happened yet...)

I agree with most of this actually. Carlyle being brought back was dumb as ****. Deciding to retain the core and give it another shot at playoffs was dumb as ****. Getting garbage back for Kessel probably wasn't the best move but I guess like you said, time will tell. Hanifin and Marner is definitely the most questionable one, no way you can pass any judgement on that decision just yet.

But yeah the blind faith in Shanahan can get a little uneasy to read around here. I started questioning him after that Gunnar for Polak trade and have been questioning his moves ever since.

You question Shanahan because our GM made a trade with losing value during a period when Shanahan was said to be just watching and evaluating?

Again, where's the logic in that?

Also, bringing back Carlyle and keeping the team is said to have been all about identifying the root of the problem. Being methodical instead of rash is never "dumb as ****".

Up until the Kessel trade, this management had done pretty much everything right. At least not anything outright wrong. Shanahan has said the right things and done the right things, and he's gone about doing them in the right way.

That's not blind faith, it's faith for a reason.

(EDIT: Just want to clarify that questioning things in itself is of course never a bad thing, just as long as you are open to every answer. So far, in my book, the answers have been good.)

the fear is, I think some people don't think Shanahan is capable of being a GM. (and I would argue because he doesn't have traditional experience. Like I said though when some really respected General Managers and Jim Rutherford say that Shanahan is being underestimated in his knowledge of what he's doing, then that should stand for something.

And I think anytime Shanahan does something no one likes (or something "daunting') faces the the organization someone is going to say "hey. I really wish we had an experienced GM, because it would be better" (how, I don't know, but I guess it's that kind of security blanket that people can tuck into).

Some really really respected GMs (and Jim Rutherford).

Ok. So Shanahan has one year of experience, and in that year, under his watch, The Leafs had one of their worst seasons in franchise history. In 2 years if the Leafs miss the playoffs that means 3 straight years of losing under Brendan Shanahan. After 3 straight years of losing does that mean that Shanahan is still doing things "the right way"? Or does it mean that he's incompetent?

The great thing about sports is that the only thing matters is your record. Shanahan can talk all he wants and try and buy as much time as he wants, but at the end of the day there is only one thing that matters. If the Leafs don't make the playoffs by the end of year 3 of Shannys term then he should be fired.

Shanny has done 2 things in his tenure with the Leafs.. A lot of talking and a lot of losing.

You never fail to amuse.

 

[legendinblue]

Ok. So Shanahan has one year of experience, and in that year, under his watch, The Leafs had one of their worst seasons in franchise history. In 2 years if the Leafs miss the playoffs that means 3 straight years of losing under Brendan Shanahan. After 3 straight years of losing does that mean that Shanahan is still doing things "the right way"? Or does it mean that he's incompetent?

The great thing about sports is that the only thing matters is your record. Shanahan can talk all he wants and try and buy as much time as he wants, but at the end of the day there is only one thing that matters. If the Leafs don't make the playoffs by the end of year 3 of Shannys term then he should be fired.

Shanny has done 2 things in his tenure with the Leafs.. A lot of talking and a lot of losing.

Losing is precisely what this franchise needs at this point. Losing and keeping our draft picks that is.

 

[cheeeko]

It's mind boggling how many people are putting last season's record on Shanahan. Like what was he supposed to do, magically make this awful team good? Getting rid of Clarkson, the fantastic Franson trade, firing almost everyone on the payroll...but no. "Worst record ever." Just think a liiiiiiiittle bit longer.

 

[egd27]

Shanahan and Dubas look much better in their suits than Burke and Nonis ever did. How can you not have absolute faith in them?

 

[Anthrax442]

Last season was Shannahan's same way that the playoffs we made was on Nonis. Not!

 

[Mike1]

Brian Burke had experience, Nonis had experience, hell even JFJ had experience. They also hired guys around them with it & what was the end result? A decade with one playoff appearance(only accomplished in a shortened season), bad trades, bad signings & a dated philosophical approach to everything.

Shanahan might not have the experience but he is doing the right things. Which to me matters a lot more.

 

[ACC1224]

...the fact that Shanahan (has never been a GM, no managerial experience at any level. Not even being groomed like Yzerman), Dubas (28, no NHL managerial experience and to a lesser extent Hunter (a top scout and talent evaluator), are now the ones making major managerial decisions for this team for now and going forward.

Let me just say, I am a big supporter of what is going on here and have been clamouring for a rebuild for many years, since before Burke took over. Shanny, Dubas, Hunter and on down. I am a big fan of all 3 so far. Babcock too.

However, this talk of patience to bring in a GM and wanting to fit one in to their management structure is looking less and less true by the day. Are they even interviewing for GM anymore? See here's the thing, once you get a taste of power and control (Shanny) it starts to taste real good and you want more and more and want to give away less and less. Shanny has become the defacto GM, on top of his many other duties, and that's not looking like it's changing any time soon.

Is everyone comfortable with this? Personally I am not and hope they get this sorted sooner rather than later because it's my personal opinion that they aren't just dragging their heels on this one it's more like they don't want to have someone come in at all.

I have no concerns. They've yet to do anything that would fall into the concerning category, IMO.

 

[Faltorvo]

seriously.

I'm saying it's a bit arrogant to think they don't need some help making these big decisions, even though they drafted well (Hunter). trading and savvy come with time. and experience is not an underrated thing with GMs. Why do you think Edmonton got Chia.

Those bringing up Yzerman 'he was groomed'. Our current group no experience at the NHL level. Like at all. It's a concern, I'm sorry that is. They should be adding to their brain trust soon. What happened to all that talk of Futa? Would be a great move. Don't see it now. Smart people have failed here because they thought they were too smart.

And I would like to know why my previous post was deleted. please pm me so I understand that is flat out weird. please/thankyou

they just showed all the savvy they need by how they filled out the roster with these UFAs , the term/$ was perfectly handled

as for up coming trades? pfft we got nothing left of real tangible market value to move , so why care or worry on that front right now.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

Yes, they need a GM with experience and connections

But I'm not concerned, yet

 

[Faltorvo]

Ok. So Shanahan has one year of experience, and in that year, under his watch, The Leafs had one of their worst seasons in franchise history. In 2 years if the Leafs miss the playoffs that means 3 straight years of losing under Brendan Shanahan. After 3 straight years of losing does that mean that Shanahan is still doing things "the right way"? Or does it mean that he's incompetent?

The great thing about sports is that the only thing matters is your record. Shanahan can talk all he wants and try and buy as much time as he wants, but at the end of the day there is only one thing that matters. If the Leafs don't make the playoffs by the end of year 3 of Shannys term then he should be fired.

Shanny has done 2 things in his tenure with the Leafs.. A lot of talking and a lot of losing.

so if we do not make the playoffs after next season, shanny should be fired?

seriously?

well get ready to be very disappointed

it won't be till his 5th season (four played counting this season) that we start to sniff a playoff slot.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

so if we do not make the playoffs after next season, shanny should be fired?

seriously?

well get ready to be very disappointed

it won't be till his 5th season (four played counting this season) that we start to sniff a playoff slot.

Four seasons? That's a random, arbitrary amount of time.

 

[HellasLEAF]

they just showed all the savvy they need by how they filled out the roster with these UFAs , the term/$ was perfectly handled

as for up coming trades? pfft we got nothing left of real tangible market value to move , so why care or worry on that front right now.

I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna pat them on the back too much for signing decent roster player for short term. That's like, the easiest thing they can be doing right now.

I like most of the signings mind you, except Parenteau. And Robidas (last year).

I'll just state for the record again that we are the only team without a GM. Ok, we are looking. Still. Still looking...

Which is fine. I guess. But what troubles me is the fact that the current management group has NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL at the NHL level running a hockey team, making trades, making signings, on the phone negotiating with other general managers, etc etc.

The Leafs are not exactly the shining star of well run organizations. This is a franchise that needs real experience at this position. Shanny was supposed to be the President. Not the defacto GM (which he currently is)

This is not the position to have no experience for. I hope Shanny and co. add someone to their brain trust soon that can help in this department. I think the Kessel trade is a good example of what I am referring too. It was a decent trade but doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence either.

 

[Liminality]

I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna pat them on the back too much for signing decent roster player for short term. That's like, the easiest thing they can be doing right now.

I like most of the signings mind you, except Parenteau. And Robidas (last year).

I'll just state for the record again that we are the only team without a GM. Ok, we are looking. Still. Still looking...

Which is fine. I guess. But what troubles me is the fact that the current management group has NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL at the NHL level running a hockey team, making trades, making signings, on the phone negotiating with other general managers, etc etc.

The Leafs are not exactly the shining star of well run organizations. This is a franchise that needs real experience at this position. Shanny was supposed to be the President. Not the defacto GM (which he currently is)

This is not the position to have no experience for. I hope Shanny and co. add someone to their brain trust soon that can help in this department. I think the Kessel trade is a good example of what I am referring too. It was a decent trade but doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence either.

I think Hunter running the London Knights and making them a dynasty for a good decade gives him some credibility when it comes to managing and gives him a good foundation for the NHL level. Dubas helped turn around the Greyhounds and helped set them for what they are today. There was a good article about his process to the draft and how he approached certain players which is interesting but can't find at the moment.

Both guys are brimming with potential at the NHL level. Very similar to how the Leafs have been drafting and being selective with their players they're targeting. People with tons of untapped potential and all they need is a chance to prove themselves, even if it takes a couple of years to get where they need to be. One thing that gives me hope for their improvement is that they're sticking to the hard, long way of going about and building this team.

 

[Rufio65*]

It takes YEARS to change the core of a team and alter the trajectory of a team that had 6-7+ guys signed longterm and had finished bottom 10 for six of the previous seven seasons.

Put Holland, Yzerman, etc as GM of the Leafs over the past season, and would they have made the team a good team immediately without hurting their longterm competitiveness? I dont think so, not even remotely.

Right now we have to judge the organization based on the longterm trajectory and direction of the franchise. Our cap situation is improving, our farm system is night and day better than it was, and our NHL team isnt all that much worse (because you ultimately cant do much worse than the consistent bottom 10 finishes we had). At least now we'll be losing with capspace and an ever deepening farm system.

It doesn't take YEARS to win in this league unless you believe Shanahan's mother goose stories. YEARS is an eternity in pro sports and you don't get YEARS to win. You get evaluated after 3 years. Giving Babcock an 8 year contract is lunacy, coaches are hired to be fired in pro sports. This regime accepting failure and asking this fan base to accept failure is sickening.

This team became Shanahan's once he fired Randy Carlyle when the team was in a playoff position. The only thing a "GM" would be now is a figurehead. Shanahan is the ringmaster of this circus now and he has no experience at any level evaluating talent.

 

[glucker]

...the fact that Shanahan (has never been a GM, no managerial experience at any level. Not even being groomed like Yzerman), Dubas (28, no NHL managerial experience and to a lesser extent Hunter (a top scout and talent evaluator), are now the ones making major managerial decisions for this team for now and going forward.

Let me just say, I am a big supporter of what is going on here and have been clamouring for a rebuild for many years, since before Burke took over. Shanny, Dubas, Hunter and on down. I am a big fan of all 3 so far. Babcock too.

However, this talk of patience to bring in a GM and wanting to fit one in to their management structure is looking less and less true by the day. Are they even interviewing for GM anymore? See here's the thing, once you get a taste of power and control (Shanny) it starts to taste real good and you want more and more and want to give away less and less. Shanny has become the defacto GM, on top of his many other duties, and that's not looking like it's changing any time soon.

Is everyone comfortable with this? Personally I am not and hope they get this sorted sooner rather than later because it's my personal opinion that they aren't just dragging their heels on this one it's more like they don't want to have someone come in at all.

In your opinion, what is Shanny in charge of?

So far Dubas & the capologist seem to be in charge of signings and trades, and Hunter is in charge of scouting and drafting.

 

[D3ADLY]

...the fact that Shanahan (has never been a GM, no managerial experience at any level. Not even being groomed like Yzerman), Dubas (28, no NHL managerial experience and to a lesser extent Hunter (a top scout and talent evaluator), are now the ones making major managerial decisions for this team for now and going forward.

Let me just say, I am a big supporter of what is going on here and have been clamouring for a rebuild for many years, since before Burke took over. Shanny, Dubas, Hunter and on down. I am a big fan of all 3 so far. Babcock too.

However, this talk of patience to bring in a GM and wanting to fit one in to their management structure is looking less and less true by the day. Are they even interviewing for GM anymore? See here's the thing, once you get a taste of power and control (Shanny) it starts to taste real good and you want more and more and want to give away less and less. Shanny has become the defacto GM, on top of his many other duties, and that's not looking like it's changing any time soon.

Is everyone comfortable with this? Personally I am not and hope they get this sorted sooner rather than later because it's my personal opinion that they aren't just dragging their heels on this one it's more like they don't want to have someone come in at all.

Ofcourse everyone has the question in the back of the mind. But this is what fans here have been wanting for sometime. and if heard the first time we would be in much better position with a proper GM. An NHL GM always feel that their Pride is on the line and historic franchise such as Toronto they want to see results. No GM would have the patience for next 5 years in a market like Toronto. I see this situation as doing what the real fans have been asking for and what the new NHL asks the team for to be successful. Build with in the organization and add key pieces as your team develops. Toronto will have a GM in the near future but i can almost say this that it will be inexperienced GM like Shanahan and Dubas, Hunter. The control will always stay with the President and this team will develop and rebuild the right way.

 

[Ovate]

I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna pat them on the back too much for signing decent roster player for short term. That's like, the easiest thing they can be doing right now.

I like most of the signings mind you, except Parenteau. And Robidas (last year).

If it's so easy, why didn't other teams do it? Buffalo needs more depth and could have used some solid UFA 3rd liners. Nashville has a bunch of cap space and still has poor depth. Basically any contender could have used another "value signing" or two.

I don't think it's a good thing that we don't have a GM. But we shouldn't be rushing into grabbing a GM either, if there are no great options available. This isn't like the roster where we can sign a filler guy for a few years until our prospect (Dubas) is ready.

 

[Gabriel426]

Can't believe there are still the debate about drafting Marner over Hanifin. Marner pretty much led the OHL in scoring and if this is any other year, Marner will be #1 overall. Also, I have a feeling even if the Leafs was to draft #1, there will be fans who might be disappointed in not getting Eichal or trading down to Arizona for their 3rd pick, Domi and all of their first rounders in the next few yrs. Now I am not saying Marner will be 100% better than Hanifin....but Marner is a great pick. Also, nobody can see the future, bc if we can, Toews would be playing with Crosby instead of J. Staal.

As for GM, none of us know whether or not Shanahan and the others are actively seeking a GM or not, bc none of us works with them and we get all our infos from the media. Thus, if they don't leak anything out, we won't know. remember just a few months ago, pretty much 99% of all media said Babcock is going to Buffalo and guess where he ended up. Beside, can any of you name a Good exp. GM who is unemploy at the moment? Bc I can't, and what if teams just don't want to let these future GMs leave their team.

As for the Kessel trade, what's done is done, and I doubt any GMs out there can get a better deal. Simply bc of the 8 teams that Kessel has on his contract, only the Penns is willing to trade for him.

 

[ATBLeafsTyler]

Shanahan is in a pretty tough position when it comes to the GM front. He kept the core intact for the season for one reason, a test. This test failed miserably which prompted him to go to the board for approval on the teardown.

If a wasted season is what it had to take, then so be it (though it wasn't necessarily wasted because we got Marner).

Shanny along with Dubas and Hunter have created a vision for this team. A vision that has looked very good so far, replenishing a depleted farm system to begin with and planning for the future.

I imagine this interview process for a new GM is a very tedious one because they need to fit the vision. The last thing the Leafs need is another "experienced" GM coming in and destroying the vision and everything that has gone on positively so far. TBH, I have no problem with Shanny, Dubas and Hunter steering the ship right now. They know what's important in today's game and are striving to make it happen here.

My answer is, I'd be more afraid to hire on an "experienced" GM right now.