Does McDavid match Ovi's peak with another awards sweep?

[Riddum]

If it's legal it's not dirty. So player's physique is useless and don't add any value? With McDavid on the ice u have to just be speedy on defense and ignore him on offense, with peak Ovy on the ice u have to worry all the time. Pretty big difference if we're comparing dominance.

"You just have to be speedy on defense and ignore him on offense" LOL! Except, when McDavid is on the ice, you basically spend your time chasing him.

And yes, Ovi's physicality was something else. Still doesn't make him a better player than McDavid.

 

[shtorm2005]

"You just have to be speedy on defense and ignore him on offense" LOL! Except, when McDavid is on the ice, you basically spend your time chasing him.

And yes, Ovi's physicality was something else. Still doesn't make him a better player than McDavid.

I don't want to argue who's better because I don't watch Oilers. Just wanted to add Ovy's physique to this debate. There was debate about peak Ovy vs peak Crosby, and I think Ovy won this title even if Crosby considered better player overall. I think same situation is here too. McDavid is maybe better overall player (center bias), but peak Ovy was too much to handle in the league.

 

[North Cole]

I wasn't making any sort of comparison to Crosby. I was merely showing the math that McDavid's jump in production wouldn't be this huge amount if he got more PP time, like the poster I quoted suggested/implied. Based on the exact same ratios he produced at last year, and assuming he got exactly the same breakdown of ES and PP time Crosby got in 2006-07, he'd see a 2-point increase. Not some massive jump from like 108 points to 120+ or 130+ (which are some of the predictions for him in some of these threads based on "if he got more PP opportunities like in 2005-2008").

That's fair, and I'm not inclined to disagree with you. I'm merely extending your logic to try and show that McDavid has the potential to have less variance in his production then some of the more recent elite players. This can even be extended to compare against Ov, who has had even more variance in his production then Crosby.

If I were to wager, if his ES production is maintained, he will likely have what looks like a better Prime. Injuries notwithstanding of course.

 

[Coffey]

With the rise of this thread, are Caps fans going to hate us now like Pens fans do?
I hope not, cause I always cheered for Caps to win in the east.

Well play illpucks, well played.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I don't want to argue who's better because I don't watch Oilers. Just wanted to add Ovy's physique to this debate. There was debate about peak Ovy vs peak Crosby, and I think Ovy won this title even if Crosby considered better player overall. I think same situation is here too. McDavid is maybe better overall player (center bias), but peak Ovy was too much to handle in the league.

Doesn’t watch mcdavid, you just said all you need to be against mcdavid is speedy and you can stop him on offence.

If you don’t watch him, maybe don’t throw out ridiculous opinions

 

[filinski77]

With the rise of this thread, are Caps fans going to hate us now like Pens fans do?
I hope not, cause I always cheered for Caps to win in the east.

Well play illpucks, well played.

No reason for us Caps fans to dislike any Oilers fans

I'm willing to bet most of us will admit McDavid is on a trajectory to pass Ovi, the only argument to be made is if he will ever pass Ovi's peak 3 years.

 

[Coffey]

No reason for us Caps fans to dislike any Oilers fans

I'm willing to bet most of us will admit McDavid is on a trajectory to pass Ovi, the only argument to be made is if he will ever pass Ovi's peak 3 years.

Nice.

Go into any Crosby/McDavid thread is you wanna see insanity. lol

 

[Future GOAT]

With the rise of this thread, are Caps fans going to hate us now like Pens fans do?
I hope not, cause I always cheered for Caps to win in the east.

Well play illpucks, well played.

TBH I've never detected any animosity from Caps/Oilers fans to each other in regards to these two players, in fact I notice most Ovi fans like and respect McDavid, and most McDavid fans like and respect Ovi. Both are super entertaining guys to watch and very respectable players.

 

[hockey4sale]

It will take another Mario or Lindros entering the league to match Ovie's peak, McDavid is amazing talent but without that generational goal scoring and without physycal presence he is no match for Ovie's peak, that said likely McDavid may finish higher in all-time ranking

 

[authentic]

It will take another Mario or Lindros entering the league to match Ovie's peak, McDavid is amazing talent but without that generational goal scoring and without physycal presence he is no match for Ovie's peak, that said likely McDavid may finish higher in all-time ranking

He's smarter and more talented, he doesn't need to hit a bunch. He will end up with the better peak.

 

[Coffey]

TBH I've never detected any animosity from Caps/Oilers fans to each other in regards to these two players, in fact I notice most Ovi fans like and respect McDavid, and most McDavid fans like and respect Ovi. Both are super entertaining guys to watch and very respectable players.

Must just be a Penguins/Crosby thing then.

 

[Echo Roku]

Wouldn’t a sweep require him to win the Rocket as well?

 

[edog37]

ah yes, the infamous regular season awards that don't really mean crap in the grand scheme because it truly is all about the post-season & Cups....

 

[Lukin1978]

With the rise of this thread, are Caps fans going to hate us now like Pens fans do?
I hope not, cause I always cheered for Caps to win in the east.

Well play illpucks, well played.

I'm a Pens fan from Canada and I cheer for the Oilers so not all of us hate you guys.

 

[Coffey]

I'm a Pens fan from Canada and I cheer for the Oilers so not all of us hate you guys.

Definitely a select few on this forum, try their damnedest to start shit.

 

[Sam Spade]

And yes, Ovi's physicality was something else. Still doesn't make him a better player than McDavid.

When comparing their first four/five years it does.

Obviously for McDavid we still have one/two to go but I would bet the outcome comes out in Ovechkin's favor.

 

[McVespa99]

McDavid needs a decade of elite play and two Cups to ever be considered a better hockey player then Ovie.

Is this real life? Ovie at 32 was more effective then McDavid at 20. But now suddenly McDavid will be considered the better hockey player?

No its the internet.
And who says McD has reached his peak? He may win 3 or 4 awards every year for the next 7 or 8 years.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

-Another Ovi thread created by lilpucks.

-To answer the question, Mcdavid actually has to do something, anything, in the playoffs to match Ovi. Mcdavid's first playoff appearance was horrific.

If you are going to harp on McDavid’s playoff performance for being horrific based on nothing other than stats, then you MUST hold Crosby’s 2016 run to the same standard. Statistically, McDavid’s playoff performance was essentially equal to Crosby’s. Crosby’s “dominance in the finals” is generally cited as the primary reason he received the Smythe over Kessel, but as Shark fan whose team played against both players, I find that McDavid was much more “dominant” on a shift to shift basis.

 

[412 Others]

Ovechkin's 3 year peak gets blown out of proportion around here. I think it's amusing that this peak conveniently starts after the 06-07 season. you know - the one where a teenage crosby outscored him by 28 points (a separation ovechkin has never achieved on a healthy crosby or malkin during this peak or any season after) .

2007-2008 which is Year 1 of the greatest 3 year peak ever, Crosby keeps pace with ovechkin before a fluke high ankle sprain sidelines him halfway through the season. Because of what happened the prior year, it's impossible not to apply that context to 2007-2008. In the end - while his 65 goals is an amazing feat - Ovechkin only outscored Malkin by 6 points. (Where's the separation??) Playoffs - This goes to Crosby with 27 points scored during a run to the finals.

2008-2009 Malkin wins the scoring title, a stanley cup, and a rips off a 36 point historic Conn Smythe run. Crosby, as a "passenger", puts up 31 points on that run. Ovechkin's higher seeded caps were bounced in round 2 by the penguins. Crosby and Ovechkin matched each other in points during the series, but Crosby showed up in game 7 with 3 pts. The 08-09 regular season and playoffs goes to Malkin, pretty easily.

2009-2010 Based on productivity this is definitely Ovechkin's season. 1.51 PPG over 72 games is dominant stuff. Crosby steals a rocket as a parting gift. the Caps and Pens both get 'halakd' in the playoffs. Crosby and Ovechkin each put up > 1.4 PPG.

It's a great 3 year run by Ovechkin, but I don't see enough separation to warrant the praise it gets by some. Also, the impact of his hitting is greatly exaggerated. It's purely self indulgent; especially when you see how much he ignores the less glorious aspects of physical play (board work, net front work, etc.)

 

[Plural]

I'd like to see him getting closer to the rocket. But McDavid already is so well past Ovechkin in most aspects that he doesn't need to be as great of a scorer. But I'd like to see him getting bit better at it, which seems that he already did in the latter half of past season.

I'd also like to see him playing on the same level in playoffs. 08-09 Ovechkin was among the best I've ever seen. 11 goals in 14 playoff games. 21 points.

McDavid can get past Ovechkin's prime/peak. But it's not certain he will.

 

[Plural]

Nice.

Go into any Crosby/McDavid thread is you wanna see insanity. lol

I feel you. I lurked around these forums since when OV and Sid were McDavid's age. Those Sid vs. OV threads were something else. McDavid vs. Crosby threads are bad too but I don't think they've reached the critical mass those other two did. It was bizarre.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Comparing Ovechkin's first two peak seasons to McDavid's:

Ovechkin: 222 points (first in the NHL)
McDavid: 208 points (first in the NHL)

Ovi: 121 goals (first in the NHL - 26 goals more than 2nd place peak Kovalchuk, 36 goals more than 3rd place Iginla)
McDavid: 71 goals (10th in the NHL - 11 fewer than an old Ovechkin) (74 adjusted)

AO: 1.38 PPG - .03 higher than peak Crosby and .04 higher than peak Malkin
CM: 1.27 PPG - .06 higher than old Malkin (1.33 adjusted)

AO: 2 Harts
CM 1 Hart (not even a finalist in year 2)

AO: 2 Lindsays
CM: 2 Lindsays

AO: 2 Richards
CM: 0 Richards

AO: 1 Art Ross
CM: 2 Art Ross

AO: 189 primary points (33 secondary assists)
CM: 154 primary points (54 secondary assists) (162 adjusted primary points)

AO: 1.17 Primary PPG (.10 better than Crosby and .15 better than Malkin)
CM: .94 Primary PPG (.03 better than Kucherov)(.99 adjusted Primary PPG)

This is without mentioning other attributes, such as Ovechkin's physically dominant play.

The only thing that makes this comparison appear to be close are arbitrary secondary assists. Ovie blows McDavid's doors off when it comes to goals + primary assists. This is also the only explanation for why peak Malkin and peak Crosby were anywhere near peak Ovechkin in terms of PPG at the time - and incidentally, they both got a ton of secondary assists off each other.

It is clear that McDavid is not matching Ovechkin's peak. 2 season peak Ovechkin had 50 more goals than McDavid's best two seasons. That is a huuuuuge separation. Even if you factor in league wide scoring - a 4.9% advantage for Ovechkin, McDavid still falls far short (adjusted stats for McDavid in parentheses).

So the answer is clearly no - one more year doesn't do it. Since McDavid's peak so far is substantially lower than Ovechkin's - not even counting Ovechkin's dominant 2009 playoffs - McDavid would have to sustain this level of play for substantially longer than Ovie did in order to surpass him.

Either that or McDavid is going to have to become a much better hockey player than he has shown.

 

[bobbyking]

Comparing Ovechkin's first two peak seasons to McDavid's:

Ovechkin: 222 points (first in the NHL)
McDavid: 208 points (first in the NHL)

Ovi: 121 goals (first in the NHL - 26 goals more than 2nd place peak Kovalchuk, 36 goals more than 3rd place Iginla)
McDavid: 71 goals (10th in the NHL - 11 fewer than an old Ovechkin) (74 adjusted)

AO: 1.38 PPG - .03 higher than peak Crosby and .04 higher than peak Malkin
CM: 1.27 PPG - .06 higher than old Malkin (1.33 adjusted)

AO: 2 Harts
CM 1 Hart (not even a finalist in year 2)

AO: 2 Lindsays
CM: 2 Lindsays

AO: 2 Richards
CM: 0 Richards

AO: 1 Art Ross
CM: 2 Art Ross

AO: 189 primary points (33 secondary assists)
CM: 154 primary points (54 secondary assists) (162 adjusted primary points)

AO: 1.17 Primary PPG (.10 better than Crosby and .15 better than Malkin)
CM: .94 Primary PPG (.03 better than Kucherov)(.99 adjusted Primary PPG)

This is without mentioning other attributes, such as Ovechkin's physically dominant play.

The only thing that makes this comparison appear to be close are arbitrary secondary assists. Ovie blows McDavid's doors off when it comes to goals + primary assists. This is also the only explanation for why peak Malkin and peak Crosby were anywhere near peak Ovechkin in terms of PPG at the time - and incidentally, they both got a ton of secondary assists off each other.

It is clear that McDavid is not matching Ovechkin's peak. 2 season peak Ovechkin had 50 more goals than McDavid's best two seasons. That is a huuuuuge separation. Even if you factor in league wide scoring - a 4.9% advantage for Ovechkin, McDavid still falls far short (adjusted stats for McDavid in parentheses).

So the answer is clearly no - one more year doesn't do it. Since McDavid's peak so far is substantially lower than Ovechkin's - not even counting Ovechkin's dominant 2009 playoffs - McDavid would have to sustain this level of play for substantially longer than Ovie did in order to surpass him.

Either that or McDavid is going to have to become a much better hockey player than he has shown.

most of ovis primary assists are rebounds from his shots

 

[filinski77]

Ovechkin's 3 year peak gets blown out of proportion around here. I think it's amusing that this peak conveniently starts after the 06-07 season. you know - the one where a teenage crosby outscored him by 28 points (a separation ovechkin has never achieved on a healthy crosby or malkin during this peak or any season after) .

2007-2008 which is Year 1 of the greatest 3 year peak ever, Crosby keeps pace with ovechkin before a fluke high ankle sprain sidelines him halfway through the season. Because of what happened the prior year, it's impossible not to apply that context to 2007-2008. In the end - while his 65 goals is an amazing feat - Ovechkin only outscored Malkin by 6 points. (Where's the separation??) Playoffs - This goes to Crosby with 27 points scored during a run to the finals.

2008-2009 Malkin wins the scoring title, a stanley cup, and a rips off a 36 point historic Conn Smythe run. Crosby, as a "passenger", puts up 31 points on that run. Ovechkin's higher seeded caps were bounced in round 2 by the penguins. Crosby and Ovechkin matched each other in points during the series, but Crosby showed up in game 7 with 3 pts. The 08-09 regular season and playoffs goes to Malkin, pretty easily.

2009-2010 Based on productivity this is definitely Ovechkin's season. 1.51 PPG over 72 games is dominant stuff. Crosby steals a rocket as a parting gift. the Caps and Pens both get 'halakd' in the playoffs. Crosby and Ovechkin each put up > 1.4 PPG.

It's a great 3 year run by Ovechkin, but I don't see enough separation to warrant the praise it gets by some. Also, the impact of his hitting is greatly exaggerated. It's purely self indulgent; especially when you see how much he ignores the less glorious aspects of physical play (board work, net front work, etc.)

What Crosby did in 06/07 has nothing to do with the next season, when considering Ovi's 3 year peak.

At the end of the day, his peak is considered so great because for 3 straight years he led the league in Points per game, Goals per game, and if it wasn't for a couple of non-injury items that led him to miss games, he likely would have swept the ross/rocket/hart/pearson for 3 straight years.

As far as raw totals go for that 3 years, he had 35 goals more than 2nd place, and 52 more than third in that time frame, and 35 more points than second place.

Adjusted to 82 games over that 3 year span, Ovi would have led Sid by an average of ~6 points and ~18 goals.

We all know Crosby has been a better player of the course of their whole careers than Ovi, but in that 3 year period, Crosby doesn't really match up at all to Ovi.

 

[olli]

If you are going to harp on McDavid’s playoff performance for being horrific based on nothing other than stats, then you MUST hold Crosby’s 2016 run to the same standard. Statistically, McDavid’s playoff performance was essentially equal to Crosby’s. Crosby’s “dominance in the finals” is generally cited as the primary reason he received the Smythe over Kessel, but as Shark fan whose team played against both players, I find that McDavid was much more “dominant” on a shift to shift basis.

Is that Evander Kane in your avatar ?