Does anyone still think Marner is better than Matthews?

[stickty111]

Near disaster is a hyperbole. 95 point player who is making 10.9 he is h/w 1-1.5 million overpaid while Matthews 634k overpaid but sadly his contract is very low on term. Being our MVP of a fringe playoff team is not that great. Matthews was again way to inconsistent (as was marner) and simply did not produce enough offense to justify the deal he got. He started out poorly on the defensive side before tightening up and becoming a strong defensive player the least 30 games or so.

If matthews does not grow his contract will never be fair. He has 4 seasons to become a top 5 player in the league. Right now he would not have been on either all NHL teams or been top 5 in hart/lindsay voting.

How does being MVP of an average team reflect on him? Your using basketball logic. He isn't responsible for the others on the team. He did his part and more. Your the one using hyperbole calling him too consistent. He and Nylander were our only 2 consistent players this season. Marner's play was awful for 10.9. Don't use points to evaluate.
Matthews play and production was terrific.
You just have unrealistic expectations if you think Matthews wasn't good this season.

 

[ACC1224]

Marner is 3 at worst and at best 2. Marner is slightly worse than eichel who is slightly worse than matthews. People tend to value centers more but marner career wise has basically the same ppg as those guys and has shown to be a decent defensive player.

He blows barzal out of the water who is not a top 10 pick in a redraft and is still ahead of Aho who plays on a stacked line of svechnikov and TT and is still below ppg.

The top 10 should be this imo

1. McDavid
2. Eichel
3. Marner
4. Rantanen
5. Aho
6. Connor
7. Werenski
8. Koencny
9. Provorov
10. Barzal/Boesor

Yeah anyone being honest would at worst leave Marner 4th, easily he could be 3 and you could make a case for 2 over Eichel.
Aho is a good player but doesn't have the game breaking skill to be that high in the draft.

 

[stickty111]

this is pretty spot on. idk why the dubas stans just won't admit he's overpaid

Matthews isn't overpaid. The term is low. Marner is the overpayment. Why won't the Dubas opposers just give him credit?

 

[stickty111]

Marner has already shown to be the better player between JT and him. HT saw his production decline with Marner while marner is still at the same offensive output. Aho plays in one of the best defensive systems in the league. He has an elite defensive core and a group of defensive minded forwards on his team. His defense being elite and much better than marners is a narrative being pushed. Marner has been a strong defensive player this year at time and has had moments where he looks lost (same case with matthews, and nylander). Our teams defensive structure is often so undisciplined we find our star players put in unfavourable defensive positions very often. None of our star players are elite defensively. However playing the system we play hurts there numbers as we are a high offensive team who does not play a tight/defensive game.

Talk about making things up. Marner was a defensive nightmare this season. Every line struggled defensively when he went on the line. It's not a narrative. Your acting it's a narrative because it makes Marner look bad. Our defensive numbers are actually average across the board under Keefe. Aho plays well defensively on his own and it's not bevause he plays on a strong system.

 

[rent free]

Matthews isn't overpaid. The term is low. Marner is the overpayment. Why won't the Dubas opposers just give him credit?

he is overpaid though. 11.634 for a guy who's not even top-5 in point scoring is a pretty bad deal for the team. he also only signed for 5 years, which isn't team friendly either.

i agree that marner is overpaid though.

 

[stickty111]

This conversation is done. Man some fans just underrate our superstars like crazy. Matthews was fantastic.

 

[hamzarocks]

How does being MVP of an average team reflect on him? Your using basketball logic. He isn't responsible for the others on the team. He did his part and more. Your the one using hyperbole calling him too consistent. He and Nylander were our only 2 consistent players this season. Marner's play was awful for 10.9. Don't use points to evaluate.
Matthews play and production was terrific.
You just have unrealistic expectations if you think Matthews wasn't good this season.

Production is consistency and it brings value to the team. Scoring chances and other shot generation stats are secondary. The more you produce the more valuable you are to the team. Nylander was probably our 3rd best player this season. You have forgotten he was having a bad season for the first 30 games or so. He was on pace for 57 or 58 points and was on a huge drought in Keefe first 10 or so games. He even got benched as a wake up call.

Marner had periods where he was absolutely dynamite this year. He cooled off and was not good enough the last 10-15 games but that happened to nylander and matthews as well at portions of the year (matthews had like 34 pts in 33 games before marner joined his line and he too sucked the first 10 or so games with keefe).

Marner was clear cut 2nd best player this year with matthews as the first. Both underperformed. It's not about my expectations anymore for these guys. They got paid to be the best in the league. Neither are close(Matthews is around 10 and marner around 20). Both have to take huge steps next season if we want to have a fair and valid discussion on them living up to their deals.

 

[stickty111]

he is overpaid though. 11.634 for a guy who's not even top-5 in point scoring is a pretty bad deal for the team. he also only signed for 5 years, which isn't team friendly either.

i agree that marner is overpaid though.

Points isn't the only way to evaluate a player. Matthews was a top 3 goal scorer and great defensively. He was really good.

 

[rent free]

Points isn't the only way to evaluate a player. Matthews was a top 3 goal scorer and great defensively. He was really good.

i know points isn't the only way to evaluate a player but it's what determines how an offensive player gets paid

 

[stickty111]

i know points isn't the only way to evaluate a player but it's what determines how an offensive player gets paid

Well Matthews was great production wise and play wise.

 

[rent free]

Well Matthews was great production wise and play wise.

this year yah but i wouldn't say his play warranted the 3rd highest cap hit in the league

 

[Wafflewhipper]

this year yah but i wouldn't say his play warranted the 3rd highest cap hit in the league

Well, goal scoring premiums are real. Ovi got it for a premium example. He didn’t play a team game for years either, but he learned he had to. It takes time for players to reach that realization at different rates. Just proves how long development of players really takes. Also proves its not a straight line from here to there.

We have two dandies and they aren’t even close to fully developed who is better year to year shouldn’t be to much a topic. When they both reach the pinnacle together will be the topic that entails maybe championships together and with some other great talent they play with. Its coming.

 

[rent free]

Well, goal scoring premiums are real. Ovi got it for a premium example. He didn’t play a team game for years either, but he learned he had to. It takes time for players to reach that realization at different rates. Just proves how long development of players really takes. Also proves its not a straight line from here to there.

We have two dandies and they aren’t even close to fully developed

ovi scored 106 and 92 points in his 2 full seasons when he signed his contract. matthews had a career high of 69 points in a season when he signed his contract.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

ovi scored 106 and 92 points in his 2 full seasons when he signed his contract. matthews had a career high of 69 points in a season when he signed his contract.

Matthews scores at a rate comparable and points have to be relative to games played and injuries too. I will judge the contracts clearly in a few years. Its like doing a survey with 20% of the data right now. I’ll just leave it at that

 

[Joey Hoser]

i know points isn't the only way to evaluate a player but it's what determines how an offensive player gets paid

Uhhh... what? Other factors clearly matter... Not sure where you get this from.

I'm guessing it's from nowhere, and it just suits your argument.

People don't score the same amount every year anyway, so that wouldn't make much sense. The scoring charts are pretty different from year to year.

 

[hizzoner]

The Leafs should just be thankful they have both Matthews and Marner. If you want a guy to put on a show, score a ton of points and play both ends of the rink then you cannot fault Marner. If you want a big guy who plays centre and is a great finisher then you cannot fault Matthews. I am not a Leaf fan--but I go to games for entertainment and Marner brings me out of my seat with what he does. Matthews is not noticeable nearly as much because his game is so different--one shot and it is in--or nowhere to be found for stretches at a time--and then bam he gets a badly needed goal.

 

[82Ninety42011]

Surprised the hate Marner gets when the two elite centres he has played with the last two seasons just had career years playing with him. Could it be he helps those around him as much if not more then the the two centres themselves? Just a thought.

 

[rent free]

Uhhh... what? Other factors clearly matter... Not sure where you get this from.

I'm guessing it's from nowhere, and it just suits your argument.

People don't score the same amount every year anyway, so that wouldn't make much sense. The scoring charts are pretty different from year to year.

look at how offensive players get paid. why do you think they get what they get? it's not because they lack offence but make up for it with their defensive skills.

 

[Joey Hoser]

look at how offensive players get paid. why do you think they get what they get? it's not because they lack offence but make up for it with their defensive skills.

So you think McDavid is overpaid then because he's the highest paid player and wasn't leading the league in scoring?

Everyone who makes more than Draisitl is overpaid?

 

[rent free]

So you think McDavid is overpaid then because he's the highest paid player and wasn't leading the league in scoring?

he was tied for the league lead in scoring when he signed his contract. he was given max term too. matthews wasn't even close to it when he signed his deal and got only 5 years.

 

[Joey Hoser]

he was tied for the league lead in scoring when he signed his contract..

So by this logic you must think that McDavid IS overpaid and Draisitl should be the highest paid player in the league?

 

[kb]

Interesting opinion, not sure I agree with it.

Same. I think he's #3

 

[Menzinger]

ovi scored 106 and 92 points in his 2 full seasons when he signed his contract. matthews had a career high of 69 points in a season when he signed his contract.

The Leafs constrained Matthews usage for his first couple seasons more than any of his star peers. Matthews wasnt even on the Leafs 1st pp until until his 3rd season.

Time/usage adjusted hes been arguably the best goal scorer in the NHL since his debut season

 

[kb]

he is overpaid though. 11.634 for a guy who's not even top-5 in point scoring is a pretty bad deal for the team. he also only signed for 5 years, which isn't team friendly either.

i agree that marner is overpaid though.

Or he's already worth it because he was 1 goal off the league lead, and the youngest player in the top 20 in scoring.

 

[SlpLessInMuskoka18]

Nobody wants to add in the extra year of salary or extra 3 years of salary to compare the top dogs lol

Guy's going to be highest paid player day 1 of his new contract far higher than MCD. On average

Ie: 15m new contract regardless of years.

12.2m over 6yrs averaged
12.9m over 8yrs averaged

More if he lands a higher number less if he can't... depends now how much the league suffers from this pandemic