Does anyone still think Marner is better than Matthews?

[Pookie]

Well, I’m going to stop you there because the parameter you set for me was mid 20 something star players re-signing with their organization as they hit UFA status. So that should preclude all the pre-cap examples you listed as well as the late career veterans looking for a pay day. Because in the long run, even Gordie Howe played for a second franchise. But what do I care who Matthews plays for at 52?

That's fine. I was hoping that a simple list comparison would highlight that players can move teams. Which seems to be the sticking point in this argument.

If those that think Matthews is here to stay can show that movement is rare... somehow that discounts the possibility that he would leave.

Let's do this official then just to have a list on the other side. Cap era signings with teams other than drafted team for players <30:

Tavares, Chara, Drury, Marc Savard, Souray, Bertuzzi, Pronger, Voracek, Beauchemin, Robidas, Redden, Tanguay, Arnott, Cloutier, Kubina, Cole, Morris. Jovanovski, Heatley, Thornton, Boyle, Timonen, Ribeiro, Campbell, Gaborik, Bouwmeester, Kessel, Burns, Parise, Suter, Nash, O'Reilly, Ryan, E. Kane, Kesler, Stastny, Radulov, Pavelski, Lucic, Okposo, Cammalleri, Semin, Staal and many more...

 

[Dekes For Days]

I was hoping that a simple list comparison would highlight that players can move teams.

Everybody knows that players can move teams. What doesn't happen very often at all, is players remotely similar to the caliber of Matthews, leaving the team that drafted them in UFA. Especially if that team is competitive, has the resources, and wants the player back.

What you named was a bunch of much worse players, players outside the cap era, players who were traded and then re-signed, etc., because you literally can't find enough examples of players who actually fit the scenario that Matthews would be in, doing what you suggest.

 

[Pookie]

I am not discounting your opinion. Your observations being biased is just a reality of observation, which is why it's good to have something more concrete in a discussion than your personal perception. But we're not even talking about observation anymore. We're talking about you making up baseless speculation about things nobody has any information about.

This is a false representation of what is happening. It has nothing to do with not being able to fathom it as a possibility 4 years down the road. It's about it being irrelevant right now, because there is nothing that can or should be done about it at this point in time or anytime soon, and if something was going to be done about it in the future, it would be based on currently non-existent information.

If it is all the same with you, I think I’ll continue to talk about possible player moves even if there is Term remaining on their contracts.

Thanks.

 

[Stephen]

That's fine. I was hoping that a simple list comparison would highlight that players can move teams. Which seems to be the sticking point in this argument.

If those that think Matthews is here to stay can show that movement is rare... somehow that discounts the possibility that he would leave.

Let's do this official then just to have a list on the other side. Cap era signings with teams other than drafted team for players <30:

Tavares, Chara, Drury, Marc Savard, Souray, Bertuzzi, Pronger, Voracek, Beauchemin, Robidas, Redden, Tanguay, Arnott, Cloutier, Kubina, Cole, Morris. Jovanovski, Heatley, Thornton, Boyle, Timonen, Ribeiro, Campbell, Gaborik, Bouwmeester, Kessel, Burns, Parise, Suter, Nash, O'Reilly, Ryan, E. Kane, Kesler, Stastny, Radulov, Pavelski, Lucic, Okposo, Cammalleri, Semin, Staal and many more...

The big picture here is we have a great thing going here with Matthews, and many superstars coming off their second contracts with their first teams choose to stay for a third deal. As long as the organization does what it can to win, to build a great team around Matthews and to be a first class organization, we'll be in great shape to keep him for longer. If he wants to go home like Kawhi Leonard, well, what can you do.

Not going to spend a lot of time worrying about what Dan Cloutier, Alex Semin and Alexander Radulov did with their careers.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If it is all the same with you, I think I’ll continue to talk about possible player moves even if there is Term remaining on their contracts.

You're not talking about possible player moves. You're making baseless, unsubstantiated claims about our team's best player leaving in UFA 4 years down the road, contrary to what is seen in the overwhelming majority of similar instances, in a thread that has nothing to do with that.

 

[Stephen]

I am not discounting your opinion. Your observations being biased is just a reality of observation, which is why it's good to have something more concrete in a discussion than your personal perception. But we're not even talking about observation anymore. We're talking about you making up baseless speculation about things nobody has any information about.

This is a false representation of what is happening. It has nothing to do with not being able to fathom it as a possibility 4 years down the road. It's about it being irrelevant right now, because there is nothing that can or should be done about it at this point in time or anytime soon, and if something was going to be done about it in the future, it would be based on currently non-existent information.

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

 

[Pookie]

Everybody knows that players can move teams. What doesn't happen very often at all, is players remotely similar to the caliber of Matthews, leaving the team that drafted them in UFA. Especially if that team is competitive, has the resources, and wants the player back.

So you want to only discuss circumstances similar to Matthews?

All right.

How common is it for American born hockey players, of similar calibre to Matthews, to resign with Canadian teams and/or come up here as UFAs in their prime?

 

[Pookie]

You're not talking about possible player moves. You're making baseless, unsubstantiated claims about our team's best player leaving in UFA 4 years down the road, contrary to what is seen in the overwhelming majority of similar instances, in a thread that has nothing to do with that.

What's not baseless and unsubstantiated is that the TEAM also has a decision to make with a contract expiring in 4 years. A contract with a NMC that starts in 3 years. And a player that will command the cap maximum.

Contingency planning is a thing.

And if you aren't in love with the player... but rather the idea that you have a 1C... these are factors that need to go into the decision.

In terms of "overwhelming majority"... I look forward to your overwhelming majority of instances in which Americans in their Primes have opted to play in Canada.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Some of us are not so quick to dismiss facts because of what some random person in an unrelated scenario said in jest 100+ years ago.

This also does not address what I actually said. Once again, one can be biased in their application of statistics to come to a conclusion, just as one can be biased in the application of their observations to come to conclusions, but the issues with human observation go way beyond that; the actual observation is faulty, regardless of intentions. Not just the application/use of it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

What's not baseless and unsubstantiated is that the TEAM also has a decision to make with a contract expiring in 4 years.

They potentially have a decision to make years down the road, based on information that does not exist right now.

And a player that will command the cap maximum.

There is absolutely zero evidence that it would take the "cap maximum" to re-sign Matthews.

Contingency planning is a thing.

There is no contingency necessary at the moment. He is signed for the foreseeable future. Getting rid of Matthews in the next 3 years would be beyond stupid, regardless of what we wish to do long-term. It would be impossible to make contingency plans about trading him 3 years down the road. We don't know what the team will look like, what the cap will look like, what Matthews will look like, his value, his intentions, what players would be available to trade, etc. We literally know none of the necessary information.

How common is it for American born hockey players, of similar calibre to Matthews, to resign with Canadian teams and/or come up here as UFAs in their prime?

This is, once again, a very misleading way to state this. The overwhelming majority of teams are American, and the overwhelming majority of players of this caliber are not American. Most players of this caliber do re-sign outside of their country of birth, just like Matthews would be doing when re-signing here.

 

[Pookie]

This is, once again, a very misleading way to state this. The overwhelming majority of teams are American, and the overwhelming majority of players of this caliber are not American. Most players of this caliber do re-sign outside of their country of birth, just like Matthews would be doing when re-signing here.

Resigning outside their country of birth?

You mean where the taxes are lower? And their wives families are from?

C'mon man.

My OP was about an American most likely wanting to live and play in America and you've countered with examples of Canadians playing in America and call my request for a direct situational comparison misleading?

I even opened up the door to ask how many American star UFAs signed here in Canada in their primes.

Over to you...

 

[ACC1224]

This thread is veering off topic. Its about Marner and Matthews.

Any wider discussions about Dubas or management decisions should take place in other more appropriate threads.

Looks like this went ignored.

 

[Stephen]

So you want to only discuss circumstances similar to Matthews?

All right.

How common is it for American born hockey players, of similar calibre to Matthews, to resign with Canadian teams and/or come up here as UFAs in their prime?

Last time we had a goal scoring franchise player from the States he re-signed for 8 years upon completion of his 5 year second contract, despite being a UFA and from the United States.

 

[IPS]

Ahhhh Leaf Nation - always have to pit 2 players against eachother

I'm glad it's a couple of potential 100+ point players then Kadri and Bozak this time around.

 

[IPS]

An UFA has the option of leaving their team? What a revolutionary realization.

 

[Pookie]

Last time we had a goal scoring franchise player from the States he re-signed for 8 years upon completion of his 5 year second contract, despite being a UFA and from the United States.

Fair point.

And where was he playing 1 year after the signing the deal?

 

[IPS]

Fair point.

And where was he playing 1 year after the signing the deal?

You are exceptionally skilled at asking irrelevant questions.

 

[zeke]

I'm glad it's a couple of potential 100+ point players then Kadri and Bozak this time around.

Or Kadri v Frattin.

 

[Stephen]

Fair point.

And where was he playing 1 year after the signing the deal?

Last I checked, nowhere near his hometown or in a market of his choosing.

 

[Pookie]

Last I checked, nowhere near his hometown or in a market of his choosing.

With a modified NTC and NMC... you don't think he had some choosing?

 

[Oscar Peterson]

With a modified NTC and NMC... you don't think he had some choosing?

Am I missing something?
Wasn't your original point that fans should only love the "idea" of Auston Matthews because we don't know if he's still going to be a Leaf in five years?
How on earth is Kessel (an American who signed an extension because he WANTED to stay) getting traded during a rebuild relevant whatsoever???
Should fans only love mid 30 year-old players signed to long contracts because otherwise we won't know if the player will leave as a UFA?

 

[Pookie]

Am I missing something?
Wasn't your original point that fans should only love the "idea" of Auston Matthews because we don't know if he's still going to be a Leaf in five years?
How on earth is Kessel (an American who signed an extension because he WANTED to stay) getting traded during a rebuild relevant whatsoever???
Should fans only love mid 30 year-old players signed to long contracts because otherwise we won't know if the player will leave as a UFA?

Nope.

My question was simply DO fans love the idea of Matthews or actually love Matthews?

Because if it's that we love the idea of Matthews, it would be best to prep for a future without him. From our end, he's expensive. And contract ending the same time as Marner's. From his end, he may opt to leave and we could recover nothing for him.

If we love Matthews... back the money truck up and sign him. Business as usual and carry on.

That has morphed into some weird discussion about whether players ever leave their drafting teams and how I am foolish for even discussing a potential move with a player who has term remaining.

Which of course, we discuss all the time. I just had the gall to ask whether we should consider anything with a fan favourite.

 

[IPS]

Which of course, we discuss all the time. I just had the gall to ask whether we should consider anything with a fan favourite.

Nope.

You tried asserting that he signed for 5 years so it means he doesn't want to be here and you got promptly shut down.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You mean where the taxes are lower? And their wives families are from?

Most players consider more than just taxes in UFA, and Matthews is not married.

My OP was about an American most likely wanting to live and play in America and you've countered with examples of Canadians playing in America and call my request for a direct situational comparison misleading?

You made a speculative claim with zero substantiation, and then intentionally chose a comparison that would produce few results solely because your specific criteria does not exist in the overwhelming majority of cases, due to the placement of the majority of teams, and the birthplace of the majority of stars.

The actual situation here - a player of his quality leaving his drafted team in UFA, is exceptionally rare, with countless examples of the opposite. Country of birth has not shown to be a significant factor.

 

[Oscar Peterson]

Nope.

My question was simply DO fans love the idea of Matthews or actually love Matthews?

Well me and every Leafs fan I know love Matthews, not to mention his jersey is by far the most common one that I see others wearing. Also, nearly every poster here loves Matthews too, so I'm not sure how you're not able to discern the answer to that yourself.