Blue Jays Discussion: Do you want to learn the horrifying truth? Or do you want to see Vlad Jr. sock some dingers!

[Anthrax442]

Warmoth 3-4 now up to .290. Really hope he proves me wrong and becomes something.

he needs to stop getting hurt

 

[aingefan]

Be nice for him to get a strong second half in at AA. Get Bo healthy and going. Groshans straightened out.
And the pitchers.

Catchers: Jansen in TO. Adams in AA. Kirk and Bec in high A. Moreno in low A. That’s a nice pipeline.

 

[bert]

Blue Jays reportedly extend GM Ross Atkins through 2020 season

Yikes.

 

[bert]

Its fairly obvious to me that this management group does not care about winning one iota. Its honestly unbelievable how two men could possibly destroy the interest in a team this quickly. It honestly feels like they are trolling the fan base. Teoscar Hernandez just played center field last night after trading away Pillar for peanuts. Then they exten Grichuk to replace him and he cant even play the position. Just unbelievable decisions.

 

[dredeye]

In retrospect maybe we might have been better off holding on to Happ and qualifying him rather than trade him for so little. Drury and McKinney have been terrible and imo aren't long term pieces, and our pitching staff is currently being held together by used bubble gum and the hopes and wishes of small children.

That trade is really the one major issue I had with the new regime. The Yankees have so many promising arms which we need badly that we would have been much better served trying for them even if it was the low level guys. That trade was a huge miss with a team it really would have been beneficial to take advantage of.

 

[metafour]

Its fairly obvious to me that this management group does not care about winning one iota. Its honestly unbelievable how two men could possibly destroy the interest in a team this quickly. It honestly feels like they are trolling the fan base. Teoscar Hernandez just played center field last night after trading away Pillar for peanuts. Then they exten Grichuk to replace him and he cant even play the position. Just unbelievable decisions.

Kevin Pillar is over 30 years old, has been worth -0.7 WAR this season, and is grading out as NEGATIVE defensively (ie: the only thing he even provides to a team). Trading him "for peanuts" (he had no value as an ageing and declining defender with zero bat you dummy) was a brilliant move, even if they ultimately never get anything out of the return. Teoscar Hernandez at least has some upside to being on the team, even if he is unlikely of ever reaching it. What exactly is the upside of Pillar? He is BAD right now and will only get worse.

Do you actually follow baseball, or do you just talk out of your ass, because to bring this move up as some sort of "failure" is absolutely hilarious and shows that you are clueless. If you are going to whine, at least do the 5 minutes of research it takes to check if the guy that you are crying about trading away (Pillar) is even doing anything this season. It turns out that he has actually been considerably worse than Teoscar Hernandez, LOL.

 

[Canada4Gold]

The only issue with trading Pillar is they didn't do it 2 years sooner when he actually had value. Everyone could see how he would go downhill and quickly become useless the moment his defense took a dip.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

With the third pick next year I hope we have a chance to get Spencer Torkelson. This guy is so good.

 

[metafour]

The only issue with trading Pillar is they didn't do it 2 years sooner when he actually had value. Everyone could see how he would go downhill and quickly become useless the moment his defense took a dip.

Pillar is a player that had more value to this team than he did on the trade market, even ~2 years ago. Teams have gotten smart and if you have noticed, no one wants to give up prospects ...especially for a player like Pillar (all defense and unlikely to hold that value). He never had much trade value to begin with. Look no further than Billy Hamilton who was non-tendered by the Reds despite posting positive WAR seasons.

The reason why Pillar was dumped this season was because it made zero sense to keep giving him at-bats on an obviously rebuilding team.

 

[canucksfan]

Its fairly obvious to me that this management group does not care about winning one iota. Its honestly unbelievable how two men could possibly destroy the interest in a team this quickly. It honestly feels like they are trolling the fan base. Teoscar Hernandez just played center field last night after trading away Pillar for peanuts. Then they exten Grichuk to replace him and he cant even play the position. Just unbelievable decisions.

Why would Keuchel want to sign with a team that has no chance of making the playoffs?

 

[thehockeysong]

Its fairly obvious to me that this management group does not care about winning one iota. Its honestly unbelievable how two men could possibly destroy the interest in a team this quickly. It honestly feels like they are trolling the fan base. Teoscar Hernandez just played center field last night after trading away Pillar for peanuts. Then they exten Grichuk to replace him and he cant even play the position. Just unbelievable decisions.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

C.J. Abrams, who was picked 6th overall (3 spots lower than where he was expected to go) signs for over 500K below slot. Darn those Padres and their low-balling tactics. I'm sure CJ's agent will never work with them again.

 

[canucksfan]

Here's the Jays draft signing table

2019 Blue Jays MLB Draft Signing Table

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Here's the Jays draft signing table

2019 Blue Jays MLB Draft Signing Table

I have to imagine we get the majority of our savings from Eden, Talley, Camacho, and possibly Brown. Hopefully it's enough to get Clarke and Neal.

 

[metafour]

Marcus Stroman and Tyler Beede say hi. So do Noah Syndergaard and James Paxton. Alex Bregman and Brady Aiken.

That is a strawman that has nothing to do with the argument: drafting a pick later the following year doesn't positively affect your ability to find a successful player in any way shape or form. In almost all of those cases they could have just drafted a player as good as your "replacement", or on the flipside their replacement player could have been a total flop as is the possibility with every draft pick, so what exactly is your point. For example, they could have taken Trevor Story instead of Tyler Beede. Syndergaard was a huge wildcard pop-up guy who just so happened to work out better than anyone would have hoped, he could have easily been a complete washout like most of the other HS pitchers they took in the supplemental rounds (Smoral, Comer, that scrub from Texas who couldn't even make it out of Rookie ball).

The point I am making s that there is a time-value lost in deferring an asset for the following year. Ever heard the term: a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow? A top prospect today is worth more than the shot at drafting a maybe better (or maybe worse) player the following year. This is even more pivotal for us as we need pitching prospects NOW. Manoah could easily be up to AA next year before your replacement even pitches an inning as a Pro. That has value to an organization, especially with regards to timing players around Vlad who is already here.

You mean negotiating? I didnt say offer him 3M take or leave it, we're talking about 100-250K. And agents don't like it when you don't give them exactly what they want, you don't say? I've yet to see any proof of this claim of agents holding grudges against teams that negotiate hard. They'd run out of people to do business with pretty quick and there's only 30 teams. I'm pretty sure agents will work with any team that has money. It's a business.

The "negotiation" is 99% done before the pick is even made. Are you suggesting that they tell him "hey, will you sign for slot?" and then turn around after the pick is made and go: "psych, you have no leverage, now we want to negotiate a lower bonus?". Teams picking that high do NOT pick a player and then start "negotiating", so again, I'm not sure what you are suggesting. The agreement for him to sign for slot would have been made before he was even selected. Maybe they did try to suggest he sign for underslot but got a hard no, at which point they decided he was the player they wanted even at full slot?

 

[metafour]

C.J. Abrams, who was picked 6th overall (3 spots lower than where he was expected to go) signs for over 500K below slot. Darn those Padres and their low-balling tactics. I'm sure CJ's agent will never work with them again.

LOL.

That situation is entirely different. Abrams potentially falling was reported a day or two before the draft - with the implication that he could fall all the way down to #9 or #10. For example, Cinci taking Lodolo was known as was Texas going under-slot at their pick. In that case San Diego was able to negotiate an under-slot value BEFORE they even took him because his agent knew that $5.2 million is still more than what he would have made had he dropped all the way to the Giants which seemed likely.

And again, that $5.2 million bonus would have been agreed in principle before the pick was even made. I can almost guarantee that it wasn't "negotiated" after the fact.

In Manoah's case, he went where he was expected to go and signed for slot which ias what happens 95% of the time in that scenario. He realistically may have gone the very next pick to the Mets as they were connected to College pitching as well. There was no reason for him to be spooked by some sort of significant drop had we not taken him at #11. Again, Abrams lost leverage because once he fell past #3 there was a very realistic scenario wherein he would drop significantly further due to the other teams after the White Sox being set on other players.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

That is a strawman that has nothing to do with the argument:

I don't think you know what a straw man argument is. A straw man argument is misrepresenting what a person says in a weaker fashion (i.e., what you tried to do to me). What a straw man argument is not: providing you with examples that refute your flawed premise that getting a comp pick is not worth the lost year.

The "negotiation" is 99% done before the pick is even made. Are you suggesting that they tell him "hey, will you sign for slot?" and then turn around after the pick is made and go: "psych, you have no leverage, now we want to negotiate a lower bonus?".

Now this is what a straw man argument looks like. It generally starts with "So you're saying..." or "Are you suggesting..." (aka the Cathy Newman). Thanks for the example. I agree it should be done before making the pick. You call up the three or four players (Carroll, Rutledge, Manoah) who you are considering and say "Hey, which one of you will sign for 4.3M?" And take the guy who would sign for that amount.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

LOL.

That situation is entirely different.

Exactly, one was a consensus top 5 pick who went lower than expected and had no reason to take a discount, and one went in the area where at least two other players were considered in that tier. Plus one was a high schooler with leverage, one was a college pitcher who would have re-entered a deeper, stronger pitching class and likely gone lower. Even if he might have gone to the Mets (not likely given their draft strategy) their slot is still 181K less than ours and his next potential landing spot, Philly, was 510k less, and Washington at 937K less.

 

[canucksfan]

Alford continues to do fairly well. I wonder if it continues he gets called up for Tellez who has been struggling a lot.

 

[metafour]

Mammoth 11th rounder HS 1B Nick Neal has signed.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I know he hasn't hit very well but Jansen has been a pleasant surprise defensively throwing out 34% of runners (higher than at any minor league stop), and he's a positive defensive WAR player so far.

 

[as Pure as Evil]

Mammoth 11th rounder HS 1B Nick Neal has signed.

by the looks of the guys size. hes gonna have to put in a lot of work to stay in the outfield with that frame. dude looks massive as hell. just saw he also is a first baseman . that may be the most likely place for him. .

 

[as Pure as Evil]

I for one am not too concerned about the young guys bats. for the most part every damn game they have played this year has been against new pitcher . until they see them 4 or 5 times over the course of a year. they will have a hard time making a plan of attack. you can watch all the tape in the world but to time out delivery release points and break . they have to play them.

Tellez jansen biggio along with whom ever gets to join them.. should all get a mulligan this year. its a development year. learn the pitchers patterns and tells.. I have to say I find it funny. when the leafs rebuilt it was almost fine with 90% of the fanbase. the bluejays on the other hand have been ridiculed . tho it was painfully obvious that we needed to do it.

just chalk this season up as a blank slate. we will get some cool moments but most of it will be hard to watch.

all we can do is hope we trade a ton of the vets. we should get a killing off some of the trades.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

 

[Cor]

Here's the Jays draft signing table

2019 Blue Jays MLB Draft Signing Table

Too bad the chart they have doesn’t work on mobile