Do you think Dubas risks losing Keefe to keep Babcock a little longer?

[killer1980]

So in watching those games you think Boston was far more gritty ?

Dallas is grittier then Nashville ?

St Louis is grittier then Winnipeg ?

Colarado is grittier then Calgary ?

San Jose is grittier then Vegas ?

Yep
Yep
Yep
Yep
Yep

 

[Leaf4Life79]

Just like Dallas Eakins?

AHL coaching doesn't always translate well at the NHL level. Look at what he did with the Oilers.

If we're replacing Babcock, I hope we get an NHL caliber coach with experience.

And one who is 'with the times'

 

[18leafsfan18]

Yep
Yep
Yep
Yep
Yep

Alright. So you have no idea what your saying.

 

[Leafsfan74]

The Maple Leafs should not be a training ground for GMs and coaches.

Remember John Ferguson Jr? That really went well.

Then again, Dubas is very fresh and given a chance, so I think there is a place in big league sports for such chances. The problem is the Leafs are a major institution for Toronto and Canada and there are very few jobs such as coach and GM that allows for development on the job training per se.

If they could have 5 GM's and head coaches, you can roll the dice, and really should with a prospect who has potential, with such limited positions, it has to be a near sure thing.

 

[NightTrain1]

Well this is all that i know.

Ive been watching the Leafs for 40 years and suffered some pretty terrible times in that run. Ive also seen the results from quality coaching with an above average team.

Skillwise this is the team with the best potential ive ever seen all around and I guess to me and at least a few other people the hold back right now is pretty obvious outside of a few other tweaks.

I took 2 years off (not %100 tuned out but kept my distance) during the end of the last phase because I quite honestly couldnt stand anything in the organization. I couldnt stand the owners, the GM the coaching and most of the players I had enough of as well. It wasnt fun to watch them, it wasnt fun to lose and it certainly wasnt fun to hear the constant excuses while the business side continued to rake in money hand over fist. The business side of sports has killed every sport for me so that I dont watch anything anymore except for hockey which is still hanging on.

When this team got a complete makeover from top to bottom nobody was more thrilled than me I swear. Here we are though 3 years on, still kinda early but the warning signs are there that this could turn on us and imo it stems from an old school stubborn coach that hasnt had winning success in a decade.

Dubas has brought Keefe with him everywhere he has gone so far. He definitely is the endgame plan and at this point the only thing holding back the trigger being pulled will be Shanahan at this point I think. People can argue details of contracts or minor moves, but the results of the Shanaplan are very real and I hope that old loyalties wont stand in the way of the final phase. If they dont make a change at coaching this team will go in a circle that its suffered for decades.

I personally think Keefe will stay with Toronto because he knows he is Dubas guy and patience will pay off even if its not next year. But if push comes to shove I believe Dubas will pull the trigger before Keefe gets headhunted.

 

[MyBudJT]

You’re correct in terms of an OHL Championship, but he coached the Soo to one of the best seasons by an OHL team, (only a few wins behind the great Knights team with far less talent) and only got eliminated because of McDavid.

He won quiet a bit at the OHL level.

He won a lot, including a championship at the AHL level.

All with Dubas built rosters.

You can at least agree it’s worth considering.

I agree its worth considering, but I don't think the time is right, yet.

I'm not jumping on that anti-Babcock bandwagon train yet, either. 5v5, we were the better team this series. I think Babcock has earned a 2nd chance with a different supporting coaching staff, and a couple more defensively responsible players.

He'd no doubt be on a short leash next year, but I think he has deserved the chance.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I agree its worth considering, but I don't think the time is right, yet.

I'm not jumping on that anti-Babcock bandwagon train yet, either. 5v5, we were the better team this series. I think Babcock has earned a 2nd chance with a different supporting coaching staff, and a couple more defensively responsible players.

He'd no doubt be on a short leash next year, but I think he has deserved the chance.

a second chance to do what?
like. i'm sorry. you don't need a second chance to tell you you don't run your non offensive players in the last ten minutes.
You don't need a second chance to not pull your goalie when your team doesn't have possession twice.
You don't need a second chance when you flat out refuse to adapt.

Like what honestly makes you think anything is going to change there?

 

[The CyNick]

The young GM doesn't make the final call on Babs. That's a Shanny call. He already chose the young GM over a hall of fame GM, let's see if he makes the same mistake with the hall of fame coach.

 

[A1LeafNation]

They won't fire Babs yet but they need to make some things clear to him. He is too stubborn for his own good. Time for Shanny to step in and get the ship righted.

He had his chance after last year.

He is done.

 

[A1LeafNation]

They won't fire Babs yet but they need to make some things clear to him. He is too stubborn for his own good. Time for Shanny to step in and get the ship righted.

He had his chance after last year.

He is done.

 

[MyBudJT]

a second chance to do what?
like. i'm sorry. you don't need a second chance to tell you you don't run your non offensive players in the last ten minutes.
You don't need a second chance to not pull your goalie when your team doesn't have possession twice.
You don't need a second chance when you flat out refuse to adapt.

Like what honestly makes you think anything is going to change there?

A second chance to bring the cup to Toronto. This is truly the first year that we could be labelled as a cup contender (IMO). Arguments could be made perhaps for last season too... but regardless... We had to play a top 3 team in the NHL in the first round.... this is no easy task...

1) Hockey players are human... you can't just expect them to play every other shift over long durations of play. We don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but with having one of the biggest sports science departments in the NHL, I'd imagine that some of these ice-time decisions are influenced by the organization. Who knows.

2) I don't recall game 6 exactly, but last night's empty net goal / pull was every bit as much on the players as it was the coach. We DID have possession, but gave it away too easily (a common theme this season). This is every bit as much on the players as it is the coach...

3) Babcock didn't refuse to adapt though... that is a false narrative around here...

Simply put, if we won the special teams battle, we'd be in round 2. I think Babcock's history... bringing us to back to back 100 point seasons (for first time ever?)... watching our young players develop successfully under his guidance... etc, etc. all warrants another chance.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

He had his chance after last year.

He is done.

ToneDog has it right. But I am not sure Babs can handle it. Babs listens to Babs. He crushes parents hopes and desires with his old school talk. Some younger guys can't handle it. I have a bad feeling this will not end well but I do think Shanny will try to talk to him and then Babs will step back and think it through and then he will hire a lawyer and it will not go down pretty. Babs does not want to be told what systems to run, Babs does not want to be told what assistants he can have, Babs does not want to be told how to deploy his troops wrt ice time, Babs does not want to be told how run a PP or PK. I can see where Leafs then require him to be a special advisor and then I see him leaving at some point over next 4 years. I can't see Shanny firing him though. I could be very wrong because Shanny is highly unpredictable.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Skip the intervention with Babcock and fire him

 

[al secord]

Oilers fan here hoping you don't fire Babcock.

We're legitimately worried we would replace Hitchcock for Babcock, in a cock swap.

We don't want to extend our cock either.

Ah, this cheered me up.

 

[firstemperor]

I don't want anything to do with Keefe coaching the Leafs

 

[Beanzy]

As much as I want Babcock gone, I just dont see Shanny being on board with it. What I do hope for is a new pair of assistant coaches, one of them being Keefe - as a way to groom him for the head coaching job at the NHL level.

It would also be beneficial for Shanny/Dubas to have a chat with Babs this off season about his gud pro equal ice time philosophy... it's not working. I would hope the new assistant who runs the forwards will have a bit more input in the top 6 lineup and can convince Babcock to load those 2 lines up.

Can't see stubborn Babcock budging from his current style, though.

 

[al secord]

It seems like our GM and Coach have differing vision and philosophies. I think if Shanny gives the green light, Babcock is gone. I like Babcock, but refusing to play our best players more minutes in desperate situations just lost me. I don't want to see that again in the next playoffs.

 

[Notsince67]

Keefe has suddenly become very overrated around here...

I kind of agree but the leafs bench staff needs changing as well. I am ok with Keefe being moved to one of the assistant roles. Time to see if he can be a possible successor

 

[Coatsy79]

I don't think it's Dubas's decision. And even if it was, l think Babs has one more kick at the can to win a round.

This year he should have won, last year it would have been nice to win, year prior would have been a suprise to win.

I still think year 1 was out best outing in the playoffs, I thought they played hard

 

[Daisy Jane]

A second chance to bring the cup to Toronto. This is truly the first year that we could be labelled as a cup contender (IMO). Arguments could be made perhaps for last season too... but regardless... We had to play a top 3 team in the NHL in the first round.... this is no easy task...

1) Hockey players are human... you can't just expect them to play every other shift over long durations of play. We don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but with having one of the biggest sports science departments in the NHL, I'd imagine that some of these ice-time decisions are influenced by the organization. Who knows.

2) I don't recall game 6 exactly, but last night's empty net goal / pull was every bit as much on the players as it was the coach. We DID have possession, but gave it away too easily (a common theme this season). This is every bit as much on the players as it is the coach...

3) Babcock didn't refuse to adapt though... that is a false narrative around here...

Simply put, if we won the special teams battle, we'd be in round 2. I think Babcock's history... bringing us to back to back 100 point seasons (for first time ever?)... watching our young players develop successfully under his guidance... etc, etc. all warrants another chance.

1: you do not play Matthews less than 20 minutes in an elimination game. I can play the sports science department game as well as you can. in the regular season. sure - but in must win scenarios, why aren't you shortening the bench? why aren't you doing everything in your power to ensure a goal. Patrick Marleau - and i really really like him - is not the person you toss over the boards with minutes to go. I'm sorry.

2: We barely did, we weren't even really set up. When Joe Bowen, he who has apologised for a lot of crap that he has seen in this organization is amazed that Babcock did it twice and questions it. it wasn't just a "we gave it away." they weren't properly set up for a goalie pull. twice.

3: Really? he adapted? When?
Our powerplay has been stagnant since November. What did he adjust? For three years it's been the worst powerplay in the NHL in the playoffs. Three. years.

Our penalty kill has has been awful pretty much the same period of time. Did he try at all to put Tavares or a different centre on the PK just to even win a draw? Doing it in game seven - is not adapting. He forced hyman to do a centres job all season and it didn't work., so why are we surprised it didn't work again (Oh by the way? we had the worst PK in the playoffs three straight years too).

The Leafs for 6 weeks haven't won a game back to back. so are we really surprised the Leafs couldn't win two in a row in the playoffs? People want to dismiss the regular season as being meaningless, but honestly - the struggles that we saw then are what we saw here magnified.

Now. this is Babcock's thread so I am not even going to start with the stupidity that is Nazem kadri who pretty much removed any chances of actual adjustments we probably could have done, but there were a lot he could have done that he didn't do. and I have handwaved/ignored a Lot of babcock's crap so it's not "oh no, we lost, blame someone." He's making the same mistakes over and over again and not making changes fast enough as in. If the Special Teams are the reason why we lost - and the special teams - has been struggling all year then WHY DIDN'T HE DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE IT? If Hiller and Smith were the problem (hello, defense woes ) why did he retain them. If anyone with eyes could see what the issues were, why Babcock, who is paid a hell of a lot of money can't go "wait this isn't working. let's try something else."

So. if you wanna believe this is a false narrative, okay. I am still seeing the same issues that were prevalent from three years ago. we can hand wave it that "oh they were rookies." but the issues were there and they haven't been corrected.


and honestly.
the thing is. sure. the points and the records and all of that are really great - but the goal is to progress every year. and the team - when it counts- isn't progressing or improving where it matters most. and honestly - I rather not waste another year praying and hoping that the issues that the team has will magically disappear when we all know it won't.

 

[killer1980]

[QUOTE="NightTrain1, post: 160196487, member: 209503"I personally think Keefe will stay with Toronto because he knows he is Dubas guy and patience will pay off even if its not next year. But if push comes to shove I believe Dubas will pull the trigger before Keefe gets headhunted.[/QUOTE]

That's assuming Dubas is really calling the shots which I doubt.

 

[tmlfan98]

Babcock is a fraud.

Losing Keefe would be a worse blunder for Dubas than losing McElhinney.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

As much as I want Babcock gone, I just dont see Shanny being on board with it. What I do hope for is a new pair of assistant coaches, one of them being Keefe - as a way to groom him for the head coaching job at the NHL level.

It would also be beneficial for Shanny/Dubas to have a chat with Babs this off season about his gud pro equal ice time philosophy... it's not working. I would hope the new assistant who runs the forwards will have a bit more input in the top 6 lineup and can convince Babcock to load those 2 lines up.

Can't see stubborn Babcock budging from his current style, though.

You get into what they call constructive dismissal. A lot depends on how the contract was drafted up and signed. Babs is no fool he will equip himself with the best lawyer. I think the conversation will occur. When??? Babs is too stubborn to try to work that stuff out.

 

[ToneDog]

1: you do not play Matthews less than 20 minutes in an elimination game. I can play the sports science department game as well as you can. in the regular season. sure - but in must win scenarios, why aren't you shortening the bench? why aren't you doing everything in your power to ensure a goal. Patrick Marleau - and i really really like him - is not the person you toss over the boards with minutes to go. I'm sorry.

2: We barely did, we weren't even really set up. When Joe Bowen, he who has apologised for a lot of crap that he has seen in this organization is amazed that Babcock did it twice and questions it. it wasn't just a "we gave it away." they weren't properly set up for a goalie pull. twice.

3: Really? he adapted? When?
Our powerplay has been stagnant since November. What did he adjust? For three years it's been the worst powerplay in the NHL in the playoffs. Three. years.

Our penalty kill has has been awful pretty much the same period of time. Did he try at all to put Tavares or a different centre on the PK just to even win a draw? Doing it in game seven - is not adapting. He forced hyman to do a centres job all season and it didn't work., so why are we surprised it didn't work again (Oh by the way? we had the worst PK in the playoffs three straight years too).

The Leafs for 6 weeks haven't won a game back to back. so are we really surprised the Leafs couldn't win two in a row in the playoffs? People want to dismiss the regular season as being meaningless, but honestly - the struggles that we saw then are what we saw here magnified.

Now. this is Babcock's thread so I am not even going to start with the stupidity that is Nazem kadri who pretty much removed any chances of actual adjustments we probably could have done, but there were a lot he could have done that he didn't do. and I have handwaved/ignored a Lot of babcock's crap so it's not "oh no, we lost, blame someone." He's making the same mistakes over and over again and not making changes fast enough as in. If the Special Teams are the reason why we lost - and the special teams - has been struggling all year then WHY DIDN'T HE DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE IT? If Hiller and Smith were the problem (hello, defense woes ) why did he retain them. If anyone with eyes could see what the issues were, why Babcock, who is paid a hell of a lot of money can't go "wait this isn't working. let's try something else."

So. if you wanna believe this is a false narrative, okay. I am still seeing the same issues that were prevalent from three years ago. we can hand wave it that "oh they were rookies." but the issues were there and they haven't been corrected.


and honestly.
the thing is. sure. the points and the records and all of that are really great - but the goal is to progress every year. and the team - when it counts- isn't progressing or improving where it matters most. and honestly - I rather not waste another year praying and hoping that the issues that the team has will magically disappear when we all know it won't.

Kadri deserves full blame for his selfish act but I was thinking why didn't Babs and the coaches see his blood boiling as the game went on and reign him in? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Been a supporter of Babs and think he will be back but for this series he deserves to be called Badcock.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Kadri deserves full blame for his selfish act but I was thinking why didn't Babs and the coaches see his blood boiling as the game went on and reign him in? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Been a supporter of Babs and think he will be back but for this series he deserves to be called Badcock.

like what? bench him? like i've heard this stated (a lot) like its on the coaching staff to rein him in but i mean. how do we know he didn't? and Naz didn't listen anyway?

like i said. this isn't naz's thread and i said my piece on Kadri.