Do you see Kucherov having an argument for best Russian player of all time?

[nowhereman]

When he finally hangs them up, I think OV settles in as a top 10-15 player of all time. Kucherov would have to have a storybook second-half of his career, if he's going to come close to touching that level of prestige.

If I had to guess, I'd say Kucherov ends up knocking on the door of the top 5 (Ovechkin, Makarov, Fetisov, Malkin, Kharlamov) but even that's a stretch. Kucherov is a Fedorov-level player, IMO.

 

[Volica]

Give me another 5 years with 2 more cups, a league scoring title or two and beastly playoff performances... and I'll think long and hard.

 

[wetcoast]

Kucherov has a better regular season and playoff PPG. He has the better individual seasons for both playoffs and regular season. Kane is thought of as this hyper elite playoff performer and he is, but consider this: Kucherov could surpass Kane in total playoff points this season. Kuch is only 10 points behind Kane in career playoff points despite being almost 5 years younger and having played 28 less playoff games.

The only thing Kane has won that Kuch hasn’t is the Conn Smythe. Kuch could easily win that in the next couple weeks and even without that, Kuch has proven to be at least as good as Kane as a playoff performer (that’s me being generous to Kane).

So Kuch being “quite a bit behind Kane” is quite the bold claim. Not sure how/why Kuch is so far behind Kane? Or even behind him at all? To me Kuch’s career will surpass Kane very soon if he hasn’t already.

We are going to agree to disagree here and to be fair most of my points were for the regular season.

In the playoffs playing on 3 SC and his elimination game performance is unreal plus he is still going strong this season and has the better low points in their careers.

Let’s see if Kuch can keep up the pace here both in the regular season and playoffs.

Maybe you aren’t looking at the entire career of Kane here or are really over valuing Kuch or a combination of both not sure.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Kucherov has a better regular season and playoff PPG. He has the better individual seasons for both playoffs and regular season. Kane is thought of as this hyper elite playoff performer and he is, but consider this: Kucherov could surpass Kane in total playoff points this season. Kuch is only 10 points behind Kane in career playoff points despite being almost 5 years younger and having played 28 less playoff games.

The only thing Kane has won that Kuch hasn’t is the Conn Smythe. Kuch could easily win that in the next couple weeks and even without that, Kuch has proven to be at least as good as Kane as a playoff performer (that’s me being generous to Kane).

So Kuch being “quite a bit behind Kane” is quite the bold claim. Not sure how/why Kuch is so far behind Kane? Or even behind him at all? To me Kuch’s career will surpass Kane very soon if he hasn’t already.

We are going to agree to disagree here and to be fair most of my points were for the regular season.

In the playoffs playing on 3 SC and his elimination game performance is unreal plus he is still going strong this season and has the better low points in their careers.

Let’s see if Kuch can keep up the pace here both in the regular season and playoffs.

Maybe you aren’t looking at the entire career of Kane here or are really over valuing Kuch or a combination of both not sure.

IMO these are both fair takes and, taken together, give a pretty good idea of where Kucherov stands relative to Kane right now.

The key thing being that they’re both in contention for “best winger of their generation”, and being about 5 years apart in age means they aren’t entirely of the same generation (in the hockey sense). It’s entirely possible that there’s always a bit of debate around them in the same way as Wayne/Mario or Bourque/Lidstrom, but in exacrly that same way, it’s becoming increasingly clear that the debate won’t have any third player involved.

 

[ted2019]

Since his breakout season in 2014-2015, Kucherov is:

• 6th in goals (only Russian player ahead of him is Ovechkin).
• 9th in assists
• 4th in points
• 3rd in Points Per Game.
• 3 time NHL All-Star.
• Art Ross, Ted Lindsay and Hart Trophy.
• Stanley Cup Champion
• First in Playoff points by a wide margin.
• 4th in Playoff P/PG despite playing much, much more playoff games than his competition.

And it seems he's still going, and could still go for the foreseeable future. Of course, he's only ~500 games into his career, but could he have a case once it's all said and done?

Are you counting just NHL play, or players like true ATG like Fetisov, Makarov, Tretiak, etc.....?

 

[User9992]

I think Kuch gonna age better than Ovi who relied on his athleticism & was early bloomer who started to decline in his mid 20's.

 

[Paper]

If not for Gretzky, Fedorov would have won the Art Ross and Selke in 1994. In terms of peak, I don't think Kucherov has reached that level or really anywhere close (Fedorov fanboy).

Ovechkin had 814 points in 679 games by the time he was Kucherov's age. Kucherov's 547 points is dwarfed by Ovechkin.

So whether it's career or peak, I don't see Kucherov coming really all that close.

 

[filinski77]

I think Kuch gonna age better than Ovi who relied on his athleticism & was early bloomer who started to decline in his mid 20's.

Ovechkin from his aged 27 season (what Kucherov is in) to now: 7 Richards, 1 Hart, 1 Smythe, 4 other top-10 Hart finishes

Kucherov this season will likely win the Smythe, but he's got a long way to go to catch up to what Ovi did in the same time-frame. Plus, Kucherov is likely at his peak (last couple years to now and maybe next year).

 

[daver]

If not for Gretzky, Fedorov would have won the Art Ross and Selke in 1994. In terms of peak, I don't think Kucherov has reached that level or really anywhere close (Fedorov fanboy)

Kucherov's season was much more dominant offensively. That is inarguable. How much value you want to put on Fed's defensive game is open to discussion.

 

[bobholly39]

Ovechkin from his aged 27 season (what Kucherov is in) to now: 7 Richards, 1 Hart, 1 Smythe, 4 other top-10 Hart finishes

Kucherov this season will likely win the Smythe, but he's got a long way to go to catch up to what Ovi did in the same time-frame. Plus, Kucherov is likely at his peak (last couple years to now and maybe next year).

I don't know if Kucherov will win the smythe or not - but it doesn't really matter for his legacy. He already has 2 smythe worthy runs, win or lose. And this particular run is even better than last year's performance, and both are better than Ovechkin's best.

Ovechkin past 2010 can't touch the level Kucherov is still playing at today. So the longer Kucherov keeps this level of play up or close - the more he'll close the gap on Ovi. Ovi has a tremendous post-peak prime, where he won all those rockets - but Kucherov is currently playing at a high level than that. Still - odds are at his current age, Kuch won't keep that level up long enough to catch up to Ovi (it would have to be 5 yrs+, which is a stretch).

I'm starting to think Kucherov vs Malkin may end up being very attainable though. I'm really impressed by his abilities as well as his compete level.

I think if Kucherov bounces back next year with an Art Ross campaign (or at least 120-125+ points, in case McDavid still surpasses that and he finishes 2nd) - it's a bit of a game changer in how we should look at him all-time.

 

[filinski77]

I don't know if Kucherov will win the smythe or not - but it doesn't really matter for his legacy. He already has 2 smythe worthy runs, win or lose. And this particular run is even better than last year's performance, and both are better than Ovechkin's best.

Ovechkin past 2010 can't touch the level Kucherov is still playing at today. So the longer Kucherov keeps this level of play up or close - the more he'll close the gap on Ovi. Ovi has a tremendous post-peak prime, where he won all those rockets - but Kucherov is currently playing at a high level than that. Still - odds are at his current age, Kuch won't keep that level up long enough to catch up to Ovi (it would have to be 5 yrs+, which is a stretch).

I'm starting to think Kucherov vs Malkin may end up being very attainable though. I'm really impressed by his abilities as well as his compete level.

I think if Kucherov bounces back next year with an Art Ross campaign (or at least 120-125+ points, in case McDavid still surpasses that and he finishes 2nd) - it's a bit of a game changer in how we should look at him all-time.

Agree that Malkin vs. Kucherov will definitely be an argument.

When looking at Regular season and Ovi post-peak, Ovi has still been way better than Kucherov. Kucherov's 18/19 is definitely the best season out of all of the below seasons, but after that, Ovis 13-15 are all better than Kucherov's only other elite-level seasons (and even his 2010-2011 is fairly comparable). After that, Ovi has 4 seasons as the best goalscorer, while simultaneously being only a few points back of cranking out top-10 point finishes too in that period.

Year	Points	Goals
2019-2020	7th	11th
2018-2019	1st	6th
2017-2018	3rd	9th
2016-2017	5th	2nd
Year	Points	Goals
2010-2011	7th	14th
2012-2013	3rd	1st
2013-2014	8th	1st
2014-2015	4th	1st
2015-2016	15th	1st
2017-2018	11th	1st
2018-2019	15th	1st
2019-2020	18th	1st

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As far as Kucherov in the playoffs, I would still say there's an argument to compare Ovi's smythe run with Kucherov last year. Yeah, Kucherov had 7 more points in 1 more GP, but Ovi had 114% more goals in 1 less GP. Pretty damn close, plus Ovi's 08/09 run could have definitely been on par with Kucherov, but that would be penalizing Ovi for his team not making it past the 2nd round. But that's just the intricacies of the playoffs and why it isn't necessarily as relevant in an all-time ranking, considering it's a mix about getting hot while also having the team success to put up crazy runs.

 

[bobholly39]

Agree that Malkin vs. Kucherov will definitely be an argument.

When looking at Regular season and Ovi post-peak, Ovi has still been way better than Kucherov. Kucherov's 18/19 is definitely the best season out of all of the below seasons, but after that, Ovis 13-15 are all better than Kucherov's only other elite-level seasons (and even his 2010-2011 is fairly comparable). After that, Ovi has 4 seasons as the best goalscorer, while simultaneously being only a few points back of cranking out top-10 point finishes too in that period.

Year	Points	Goals
2019-2020	7th	11th
2018-2019	1st	6th
2017-2018	3rd	9th
2016-2017	5th	2nd
Year	Points	Goals
2010-2011	7th	14th
2012-2013	3rd	1st
2013-2014	8th	1st
2014-2015	4th	1st
2015-2016	15th	1st
2017-2018	11th	1st
2018-2019	15th	1st
2019-2020	18th	1st

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As far as Kucherov in the playoffs, I would still say there's an argument to compare Ovi's smythe run with Kucherov last year. Yeah, Kucherov had 7 more points in 1 more GP, but Ovi had 114% more goals in 1 less GP. Pretty damn close, plus Ovi's 08/09 run could have definitely been on par with Kucherov, but that would be penalizing Ovi for his team not making it past the 2nd round. But that's just the intricacies of the playoffs and why it isn't necessarily as relevant in an all-time ranking, considering it's a mix about getting hot while also having the team success to put up crazy runs.

When I said Kucherov now is better than anything post Ovechkin 2010 - I say that in large part because I think Kucherov is still in his 2018-2019 form, or close. Which is better than anything post-peak for Ovechkin (and comparable to peak Ovechkin, even if you have peak Ovi ahead).

Kuch's season last year was a bit slower overall - but that's based largely off a slower November. By season's end, his pace was catching back up to the scoring leaders - with ~12 more games he'd have finished higher, possibly. And then, he didn't play this year. And has 2 30+ playoff point runs since. So a bit difficult to properly place given all the unusual pandemic related circumstances.

So i'm curious to see what Kuch does next year. I think he's still playing at his 2018-2019 level, and if he comes back with a ~115-120+ point season, I'd say yes that's still above anything Ovi has done since 2010. If he slows down to ~90-100 points, sure that's more debatable.

I do think Kucherov's 2017-2018 season get vastly underrated for what it's worth. I feel like he should have won the hart trophy that year, or maybe top 2 after Mack. So I'd still have that very high up in any head to head with Ovi beyond 2010 as well.

Bottom line - Kucherov needs to keep that level up for many years to overtake Ovechkin's overall resume. That's extremely unlikely. But until Kucherov actually slows down - it's not completely impossible?

 

[Gnome17]

Kucherov is 6th in all-time playoffs PPG among players that had at least 82 GP. Kinda impressive that he's doing it today vs the 80's

NHL Stats

This stat has been so hot lately, they talked a lot about it with Mackinnon aswell.
What people fail to see though is that a lot of the all-time greats had several deep playoff runs in their mid and late 30s.
It is hardly fair to compare a 25-28 year old players ppg vs someone who played into their late 30s. It is very likely that that Kucherovs playoff ppg will drop off quite a bit by the time he is done.

 

[Gurglesons]

In the conversation at this point. We will see.

 

[Paper]

Kucherov's season was much more dominant offensively. That is inarguable. How much value you want to put on Fed's defensive game is open to discussion.

I strongly disagree with the "much". The top 10 scoring leaders were reasonably similar, Kucherov was 12 points ahead of next best McDavid. Fedorov was 8 ahead of Oates and only behind Gretzky. Remove Gretzky and the scoring leaders don't look all that different from one another (or even with Gretzky). Sure, give it to Kuch, but we aren't talking about a tier difference here.

Kucherov -128
116
110
105
100
100
99
99
98
96

Gretzky - 130
Fedorov - 120
112
111
107
107
107
102
99
99
97

However, where there was a tier difference or six was their defensive ability. Fedorov was a beast defensively that waaaaayy more makes up for the couple more points that Kucherov was able to get.

 

[Henkka]

102 points in last 81 playoff games. (6 years)

Insane.

Crosby and Point are at 73 points at same time period, the nearest ones.

 

[MaxV]

It's an interesting argument where to put Kucherov on the list right now (among NHL career only).

Longevity will not be in his favor at this point.

Peak and an excellent playoff resume are strong arguments, but most of top Russian players also have both of those as well plus they have longevity on their side.

 

[Former Referee 68]

OVI

 

[trick9]

I would wait until his individual trophies no longer fit in the closet for that. Ovi still has an own house for his trophies.

 

[Eisen]

As good as Makarov was in the 1980s, I think he is over-rated by some on these boards from an all-time perspective.

He made his NHL debut as a 31 year old in 1990. Maybe not his prime, but not old either.

He posted his best season that year, with 86 points. He ranked 30th in scoring that year.

This was at a time when the NHL was high scoring.

I think someone that has Makarov's ranking on HFBoards should have performed better than that, even as a 31 year old.

Compare that scoring to his age bracket and then consider at what age Soviets usually retired. Those guys were usually spent in their early 30s. The training there was the pits.

 

[daver]

I strongly disagree with the "much". The top 10 scoring leaders were reasonably similar, Kucherov was 12 points ahead of next best McDavid. Fedorov was 8 ahead of Oates and only behind Gretzky. Remove Gretzky and the scoring leaders don't look all that different from one another (or even with Gretzky). Sure, give it to Kuch, but we aren't talking about a tier difference here.

Kucherov -128
116
110
105
100
100
99
99
98
96

Gretzky - 130
Fedorov - 120
112
111
107
107
107
102
99
99
97

However, where there was a tier difference or six was their defensive ability. Fedorov was a beast defensively that waaaaayy more makes up for the couple more points that Kucherov was able to get.

Kucherov was a full tier ahead of everyone except McDavid. Federov's point total was solid but nothing spectacular. Kucherov would have put up close to 135 - 140 points in 93/94.

So how much do you value a Top 6 forward, whose primary contribution is offense, who produced 15% more than the player who brought an elite defensive game too?

FWIW, Federov's Hart win was not particularly strong that year whereas Kucherov's was.

 

[Son Goku]

He won’t pass Malkin

 

[Albatros]

Kucherov was a full tier ahead of everyone except McDavid. Federov's point total was solid but nothing spectacular. Kucherov would have put up close to 135 - 140 points in 93/94.

So how much do you value a Top 6 forward, whose primary contribution is offense, who produced 15% more than the player who brought an elite defensive game too?

FWIW, Federov's Hart win was not particularly strong that year whereas Kucherov's was.

If we go by adjusted points according to the formula used by HR it's Kucherov 128 vs. Fedorov 124. I'll take the Selke instead of the four more points without hesitation.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

No

 

[moropanov]

He is arguably best of active Russian's but some Soviets were better for sure. Eventough i would prefer Datsyuk over Kucherov i think he has statistical argument's to be best Russian at timeline of 2000-2021 era.