Do you agree with Gerry Cheevers getting inducted into the HHOF?

[Big Phil]

Much like Middleton/McDonald, Kevin Lowe, Brad McCrimmon, and Mike Ramsey were basically the same players with the same careers over the exact same timespan. All were rookies the same year and retired within a year of each other.

McCrimmon was probably the best player of the three. But Lowe gets to ride Gretzky's coattails to the HHOF.

The regular voters of the BHOF have generally done a pretty good job - outside of recently not knowing what to do with Bonds/Clemens - but the Veteran's Committee mucks everything up. Harold Baines?

Luckily with a rotating DH more or less in baseball there are less players predominantly at that position for their career. But still, he was a non-descript player, nothing notable about him that screamed Hall of Famer.

Anyone probably was going too far with it given how Cheevers played in big games. More so meant he was probably 4th or 5th on the importance scale on those Bruins teams.

With goalies (and skaters) one of my personal HOF criteria is did they ever scare you. As in did you ever look before a game and go "oh crap, we gotta plan for X tonight". IMO Cheevers wasn't in that category, same way I never was afraid of Osgood or MAF

I would say Fleury is noticeably ahead of Cheevers and Osgood. Cheevers is definitely ahead of Osgood as well. I would say Fleury was capable of stealing a series. In fact he did. He took an expansion team to the Cup final. That's quite prolific.

Here is another thing with Cheevers, he normally split time with the other goalie during the regular season. He once played 52 games in a season, that was his highest in the NHL. The WHA he played more often. So the split in the NHL meant he didn't get the same sort of all-star nods at seasons end that another goalie might. Plus, the thing with Cheevers is do we use his WHA years to his advantage? If we do, then I think he is clearly a HHOFer. If we don't, then it gets a lot muddier because his resume thins out. That's always been the thing with him, most players either weren't good enough in the NHL (Marc Tardif) but had a great WHA career to get into the HHOF or some had a good enough career prior to entering the WHA that it doesn't matter. Cheevers doesn't fall in that neat packaged spot by any means.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Absolutely no. he's in the same boat as Osgood and Fleury, neither of which are close to being HOF'ers IMO either.

Any goalie wins those Cups in Boston, and really the Bruins would've been infinitely better going with Dryden or Parent over Cheevers (yes, BOTH were in the Bruins system with Cheevers)

Geez, don't remind me. The reason why the Bruins didn't win more cups in that era was that they didn't have a DOMINANT goalie and Montreal and Philadelphia DID. With the Bruins history of losing the big ones (and most ones) against Montreal especially, it was mainly because the Canadiens had the better goaltending, IMO.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Geez, don't remind me. The reason why the Bruins didn't win more cups in that era was that they didn't have a DOMINANT goalie and Montreal and Philadelphia DID. With the Bruins history of losing the big ones (and most ones) against Montreal especially, it was mainly because the Canadiens had the better goaltending, IMO.

No, it was mainly because Montreal had the better team.

Even the 1971 Canadiens had 10 Hall of Famers on the roster.

 

[BobbyAwe]

No, it was mainly because Montreal had the better team.

Even the 1971 Canadiens had 10 Hall of Famers on the roster.

For a couple decades Boston had "solid" goaltending with Johnston, Cheevers and Gilbert, but the Canadiens had Plante, Hodge, Worsley, Vachon, Dryden and Larocque. No comparison, especially considering the DOMINANCE of Plante and Dryden.

The specific edge in goaltending for Montreal over Boston was GREATER than their overall edge in skaters, is all I'm suggesting - and goaltending is the most crucial position.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

For a couple decades Boston had "solid" goaltending with Johnston, Cheevers and Gilbert, but the Canadiens had Plante, Hodge, Worsley, Vachon, Dryden and Larocque. No comparison, especially considering the DOMINANCE of Plante and Dryden.

The specific edge in goaltending for Montreal over Boston was GREATER than their overall edge in skaters, is all I'm suggesting - and goaltending is the most crucial position.

When you are talking about Plante, Hodge and Worsley in Montreal, that was a time when the Bruins were the worst team in the NHL. Really no comparison between the two teams.

Of course, the late 70's were the Habs teams many people consider the best teams ever. Bruins were not at their level. From 1971 to 1975 the Bruins may have had the better teams. And both teams won two Cups and the Canadiens had the better goaltending, for sure.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Got no problem with this, But I grew up in the 70's

 

[Bear of Bad News]

But I grew up in the 70's

Are you suggesting that growing up watching Cheevers in the 1970s as a youngster gives you better and more accurate insight into Cheevers' HHOF qualifications, or are you suggesting that it biases you?

 

[BobbyAwe]

When you are talking about Plante, Hodge and Worsley in Montreal, that was a time when the Bruins were the worst team in the NHL. Really no comparison between the two teams.

Of course, the late 70's were the Habs teams many people consider the best teams ever. Bruins were not at their level. From 1971 to 1975 the Bruins may have had the better teams. And both teams won two Cups and the Canadiens had the better goaltending, for sure.

The Bruins went about 40 seasons from the early 1940's till early 1980's without a Vezina winner (unless I missed one?) The Canadiens won almost 20 Vezina's in that same period. That's sick!

Montreal nearly always had the better team in general in those days, but the most important single imbalance between the 2 teams was in the nets. To make matters worse (as a Bruin's fan), Parent started his career with Boston and Dryden was in the Bruin's system for a while

 

[Jumptheshark]

Are you suggesting that growing up watching Cheevers in the 1970s as a youngster gives you better and more accurate insight into Cheevers' HHOF qualifications, or are you suggesting that it biases you?

Age sometimes gives me a different perspective, like when you talk about growing up during the Napoleonic wars or when the big bang happen. I think that people sometimes look at stuff through modern eyes when talking about some players. In my opinion he was one of the best goalies in the 70's

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The Bruins went about 40 seasons from the early 1940's till early 1980's without a Vezina winner (unless I missed one?) The Canadiens won almost 20 Vezina's in that same period. That's sick!

Montreal nearly always had the better team in general in those days, but the most important single imbalance between the 2 teams was in the nets. To make matters worse (as a Bruin's fan), Parent started his career with Boston and Dryden was in the Bruin's system for a while

Kind of getting away from the Cheevers talk by going back to the 1940's, no?

From 1946–47 to 1981–82, the Vezina went to the goaltender(s) of the team allowing the fewest goals during the regular season. So those trophies were more indicative of the Canadiens team defense than goaltending.

Dryden was drafted by the Bruins but was traded right after that so never really in their system. Parent actually played 57 games for Boston. He was only 21 when Philly took him in the expansion draft while Bruins protected Cheevers and Eddie Johnston.

 

[Big Phil]

Age sometimes gives me a different perspective, like when you talk about growing up during the Napoleonic wars or when the big bang happen. I think that people sometimes look at stuff through modern eyes when talking about some players. In my opinion he was one of the best goalies in the 70's

That is sort of the same mindset I have. It isn't an accident that Cheevers was always there for the big tournaments. He would have likely been the starter in 1972 Summit Series. He was the goalie for the WHA Summit in 1974. Backed up Vachon on the 1976 Canada Cup. Played in the 1979 Challenge Cup. That's the thing, people seem to either be too young or don't look up these sorts of things. There were lots of goalies to choose from and Cheevers was always on these teams. Chris Osgood was never even considered for these teams. Fleury made a team like this once (although I do have Fleury ahead of Cheevers). While he did not play well in the one game he played in for the NHL All-Stars in 1979, people should ask why was he there? He was older at this time, but he is in because he had backstopped the Bruins to the Cup final the previous two years. So the truth is he really did have a reputation as a money goaltender, that's not a lie.

People like to point to him being pulled in 1979 vs. the Habs. Well, okay fine, but he's 38 at this time. Let's not forget this. And the Bruins didn't win without him either. There are a lot of players who would have had shinier careers if not for the Montreal Canadiens, and I think Cheevers ranks right up there as one of the top guys in that department. Also, let's not forget Tony Esposito, who we all rank higher than Cheevers, played poor in 1971 and especially 1973 vs. the Habs. Everyone did back then, let's face it.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Kind of getting away from the Cheevers talk by going back to the 1940's, no?

From 1946–47 to 1981–82, the Vezina went to the goaltender(s) of the team allowing the fewest goals during the regular season. So those trophies were more indicative of the Canadiens team defense than goaltending.

Dryden was drafted by the Bruins but was traded right after that so never really in their system. Parent actually played 57 games for Boston. He was only 21 when Philly took him in the expansion draft while Bruins protected Cheevers and Eddie Johnston.

I didn't know about the Vezina's going to the team allowing the least goals - that's ridiculous! (I guess that's why they changed it?)

But again, BIG edge in goaltending for the Habs in those years, and then you have Roy arriving in the '80's. Another GREAT goaltender. It just wasn't fair...

 

[Moose Head]

It is a boys club far more than it should be. Baseball is very strict. If we take away the grudges the committee continues to have for players (Shoeless Joe, Rose, Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod) for things related to baseball then perhaps the best player not in right now is Curt Schilling, who my guess is only in because of his more outspoken nature. Schilling should be in, and I think eventually does get in there down the line because he never did the juice, but there is definitely less of a "Huh, how is he in and he isn't?" type of thing in Baseball.

I am not sure what they don't like about Middleton. He was a human highlight reel. So it isn't as if we aren't still talking about him after all of this time. He had a good nickname too. Not sure what is going on there.

Kevin Lowe....................hmmm. Yeah, that one bothers me. The 6 Cups gloss over a lot of things and that alone will give him less controversy but he wasn't a great defenseman in the NHL scope of things. Not considered great at least. Serviceable yes, a guy you want on your team yes, but a HHOFer? Also his acceptance speech irritated me a bit last year. Maybe it was just me, but there was this feeling of "It's about time my sort of player gets recognized" that came out. Yeah sure, there is room for stay at home types. Rod Langway is in there, to an extent Serge Savard too. But if you aren't contributing much offensively I think you have to be noticeably a difference maker if your niche is staying at home.

With baseball the only one I can recall is Lou Brock and Tim Raines. Lou got in deservedly on the first ballot, but for some reason, Raines, with an nearly identical career had to wait. He barely made it in.

 

[Big Phil]

With baseball the only one I can recall is Lou Brock and Tim Raines. Lou got in deservedly on the first ballot, but for some reason, Raines, with an nearly identical career had to wait. He barely made it in.

Might have had to do with the fact that Brock was the all-time steals leader at the time of his retirement, breaking what was thought to be a difficult record to beat. Or maybe the fact Raines was best known as being on the Expos which were defunct by then. I don't think the cocaine stuff played into it from the 1980s. But who knows. Raines was actually a member of the 1996 and 1998 Yankee championship teams, although near the end of his career.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Came across this this morning. Seems like a pretty early on version of a player being mic'd up, and it appears that there's a brief period of helmet cam of some sort in practice too.



Cheevers pitches one of the 31 shutouts of the inaugural WHA season, lots of footage of that.