Line Combos: Do we need to tweak our "third" line?

[Nicholas723]

I'll be the first to admit right here right now, I have a lot of love and appreciation for:

Rich Peverley
Chris Kelly
and Tyler Seguin

I made a post somewhere about Seguin's struggles, he'll be fine. And I certainly don't think we need to be hitting the panic attack button for Chris Kelly and Rich Peverley as most people are suggesting they should be moved ASAP (especially when we were down 4-1 against the Leafs, I was laughing hard) However they probably would have been the first two moved had we lost that Game 7.

So, think about what they DO bring: Some speed, above average to "elite" penalty killing, the ability to change the game with one breakaway (think Peverley in the finals against Vancouver, he had a few sick plays) and faceoffs.

So Let's discuss the possible outcomes:

As a small testament to my post about Seguin's struggles, I think they're fine tuning their shot too much and "pressing" or holding their sticks a tad too tight. Look at their stat lines, absolutely awful numbers and any fair weather fan or blogger in the media would be quick to point to them and jump to conclusions about their play.

I'll admit, I was at the game last night and was very concerned and it was hard not to notice why they're dubbed the "High Glass Line" - reason for that is because of their super-fine tuned shots that a goalie like Lundqvist just loves to play against. Seguin himself is not strong on the puck, gets outmuscled, outwilled by defenseman who've got a lot more NHL experience and muscle on their bodies. He's always getting outleveraged or using the same dangle move - I admit he needs to build some muscle and work on his board play, but atleast he GOES to the corners instead of floating out there. People don't realize how good of an elite forward Seguin WILL be ... he needs time to develop.

But what about Vokoun? He isn't nearly as good as Lundqvist and he might become exposed to a line like Pevs - Kelly - Seguin, and if Pitts thinks they need a change Fleury comes in and we all know he lets in beach balls...

But they did bring speed, faceoffs, and PKing which are very valuable to have. One guy gets thrown out at the dot trying to cheat? No problem, slide in the other Center and you have a man who's over 50% efficiency at winning draws. That becomes very huge when the puck is iced, or when you need a key defensive draw (though, Bergeron takes those, but imagine what happens if he's in the box?) That is the game within the game that people don't think about.

These guys are battle tested. They shouldn't be the first guys on the chopping block if we lose this series because we've made it to the East finals, and I think guys are allowed to have an off year. (after all, Kelly/Pevs may be injured).

HOWEVER, I think they're the X-Factor for this upcoming series against Pittsburgh. and I don't think they're really a third line at this point anymore with the way Paille, Campbell, and Thornton are playing.

I think it's worth considering bringing Soderberg and the Dogman into action, maybe having Seguin as your scratch considering the way he's played - that's not a knock on him at all but I think inserting the Dogman or Soderberg to ignite some energy with Pevs/Kelly might be a good option to explore for one of these games on the road.

With any potential positive change, theres always a negative - and those negatives are the fact that Soderberg has never played an NHL playoff game in his life, and he didn't look ALL that stellar in his 6 game showing (Though he did have 2A) but what I think he'd be great for is having another speedy, "thick" guy with some muscle and experience a long the board who can also kill penalties in a situation... say when Pevs/Kelly/Paille is in the box, you want another elite PKer to be available on your bench. As with the Dogman, when he played Ottawa he had some great energy... he can throw the body around and also maybe ignite energy.

I'm not suggesting we need to throw the "3rd" line to the curb, but it might be worth exploring the Pros and Cons to bringing in a substitution for one of the guys on the line to ignite some energy in the other 2 guys. I don't think we need to make whole-sale changes, just a slight tweak and I hope this thread serves as an intelligent insight into Claude's thought process as he prepares for the series.

Click to read more...

 

[westernhome]

Peverley is a scratch way before Seguin is

but yes, there is no doubt that Soderberg should be in

 

[Nicholas723]

Peverley is a scratch way before Seguin is

but yes, there is no doubt that Soderberg should be in

Based on what though?

 

[Numbah4]

I'd just put Seguin back with Marchand and Bergeron. If we get them going like they did in the regular season, we have 3 lines that are going good. Them and the KLH and Merlot lines.

Maybe jagr and peverly can click a little. I've read that Jagr likes to play with a right-handed C. Kelly gives them a defensive and fore-check presence. If not working, just limit their time which saves Jagr for the power-play. And, keeps Peverly and Kelly ready for the PK

 

[corpfan1]

It is really too bad that we can't find a combination from that "3rd line" that gives us some scoring. I don't mind a defense first 3rd line that shadows the other teams top players, but they don't really do that either.

I wonder if it is almost better (obviously won't happen) to have Bergeron be on the 3rd line with Kelly and Marchand?

Have a more offensive line like:

Jagr - Peverley - Seguin


And a tight checking line (that might pop a goal or 2) like:

Kelly - Bergeron - Marchand

or even:

Paille - Bergeron - Marchand and move Kelly with Campbell and Thornton.


Don't want to mess with things, but I think Julien has better options that the current look.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Status quo. They have been getting better and better. I think the real problem is Julian's only option re Jagr is to play him with Marchand and Bergeron. Seguin should be on the 37/63 line but Jagr can't play with 23/49.

 

[tomp]

Based on what though?

Talent, upside, new look for a line that has been in the dumpster all season.

I can do with out scoring if the line is shutting down the opponent but combined they are -11 for the playoffs.

 

[Bi Coastal Bawse*]

The time to have done that was round 1 or early round 2 not ecf

 

[PlayMakers]

I'll be the first to admit right here right now, I have a lot of love and appreciation for:

Rich Peverley
Chris Kelly
and Tyler Seguin

But...

First off, I don't think Peverley and Kelly's fates were tied to the outcome of Game 7, and now that they're out of Rd2 they're safe. That's how fans think (and maybe Neely :snicker), but I don't think that's how Chiarelli thinks. He doesn't let small sample sizes guide his decision making (that's why he didn't succumb to pressure to throw Claude under the bus after the Flyer debacle). But. That doesn't mean those guys won't be cut loose (I hope they are) but for me that decision was made the day they said the cap was coming down.

I agree that Seguin's compete/battle hasn't been at the level you need to be a productive playoff scorer, but I think the strength excuse is not valid. The kid is plenty strong. Stronger than a lot of 18/19/20 year olds who have gotten it done in the post-season. I'd wager he's stronger than Patrick Kane. It's about will, not skill, or strength for Tyler Seguin. He needs to get tougher- and he will, eventually. I will say that I think he's been competing harder these last couple of games- and was rewarded for it with some TOI in place of Jagr in the final 2 minutes last night (key defensive situation), and he has 3 points (in his 2 games) to show for his efforts.

It's tough to take him out of the lineup because A) how will he ever learn to get comfortable in the playoffs if he doesn't gain some experience. B) He's a big part of our suddenly decent PP. He's an option to bring the puck up. He's one of the few forwards on this team willing to shoot it and create rebounds. C) He's not hurting you defensively and D) at any moment it could click and he could do what he did to the Lightning for a couple games in 2011.

IMO, it's tough to take any of them out of the lineup. As you said, Kelly and Peverley are critical pieces of our PK. A PK that's going to be immensely important in this next series.

Has the Bergeron line been good enough with Jagr that you can't touch it? If Peverley were playing at even half his offensive potential I'd swap him with Jagr and see what Seguin and Jags could do together. But I don't know that that's the correct move to make right now. Before I make any changes, I see how the lineup that just went 4-1 does agains the Pens for a game or two.

 

[Nicholas723]

First off, I don't think Peverley and Kelly's fates were tied to the outcome of Game 7, and now that they're out of Rd2 they're safe. That's how fans think (and maybe Neely :snicker), but I don't think that's how Chiarelli thinks. He doesn't let small sample sizes guide his decision making (that's why he didn't succumb to pressure to throw Claude under the bus after the Flyer debacle). But. That doesn't mean those guys won't be cut loose (I hope they are) but for me that decision was made the day they said the cap was coming down.

I agree that Seguin's compete/battle hasn't been at the level you need to be a productive playoff scorer, but I think the strength excuse is not valid. The kid is plenty strong. Stronger than a lot of 18/19/20 year olds who have gotten it done in the post-season. I'd wager he's stronger than Patrick Kane. It's about will, not skill, or strength for Tyler Seguin. He needs to get tougher- and he will, eventually. I will say that I think he's been competing harder these last couple of games- and was rewarded for it with some TOI in place of Jagr in the final 2 minutes last night (key defensive situation), and he has 3 points (in his 2 games) to show for his efforts.

It's tough to take him out of the lineup because A) how will he ever learn to get comfortable in the playoffs if he doesn't gain some experience. B) He's a big part of our suddenly decent PP. He's an option to bring the puck up. He's one of the few forwards on this team willing to shoot it and create rebounds. C) He's not hurting you defensively and D) at any moment it could click and he could do what he did to the Lightning for a couple games in 2011.

IMO, it's tough to take any of them out of the lineup. As you said, Kelly and Peverley are critical pieces of our PK. A PK that's going to be immensely important in this next series.

Has the Bergeron line been good enough with Jagr that you can't touch it? If Peverley were playing at even half his offensive potential I'd swap him with Jagr and see what Seguin and Jags could do together. But I don't know that that's the correct move to make right now. Before I make any changes, I see how the lineup that just went 4-1 does agains the Pens for a game or two.

I agree with you here. Jagr is something special obviously, but I have to think that his age and shift lengths takes Bergeron/Marchand's defensive/offensive flow and effectiveness down a notch no?

Though I will say that line is creating a boatload of chances I'm not so sure that Jagr is the right guy for that line. Seems like he's turned into a "perimeter" guy, you can tell he knows how to "outwork" the defenseman with his stick handling, deking, and overall experience/puck posession prowess - but he doesn't get a lot of sustained puck posession touches like the Krejci line does. When March-Berg-Segs were together they had similar sustained cycling or "triangle" shifts as Jack and Brick like to describe that the Lucic-Krejci-Horton line has been doing for a few seasons now.

Nice to still see you floating around Bill I miss your analysis!

 

[Flannelman]

Has the Bergeron line been good enough with Jagr that you can't touch it? If Peverley were playing at even half his offensive potential I'd swap him with Jagr and see what Seguin and Jags could do together. But I don't know that that's the correct move to make right now. Before I make any changes, I see how the lineup that just went 4-1 does agains the Pens for a game or two.

Valid point, Bill. I both like and don't like that line (March - Berg - Jagr). Seemingly enough skill, Jagr and Marchand seem to find each other. Responsible, good puck control, winning puck battles but not enough production (IMO).

Back to the third, though, I think the simplest change would be to swap... drum roll... ... Pev and Seguin. Move Pev back to the right and move Seguin to the left (where he's looked good on the PP).

My thought is that Seguin might be able to receive passes a bit better and it'll at least stop his little move that he tried to do rushing up the right boards. Perhaps he'll like the angles here a bit better and maybe his shooting percentage will go up.

I just don't know how much tinkering can be done at this point without it being a disruption. But, undoubtedly, that 3rd line has been a (super massive) blackhole.

Just throwing it out there.

 

[LavioletteScores]

I think this upcoming lay-off will be key for a Kelly-Peverley-Seguin line heading into the Pittsburgh series. They haven't had enough quality time to think and work together in practices, to work out the kinks so to speak. If they can focus on playing off each other's game in this next week, they may be in a better position to contribute offensively.

Far and away, however, they were much better vs. New York defensively and special teams-wise than against TO. If there is a series where they need to contribute offensively, this is the one.

 

[Nicholas723]

I think this upcoming lay-off will be key for a Kelly-Peverley-Seguin line heading into the Pittsburgh series. They haven't had enough quality time to think and work together in practices, to work out the kinks so to speak. If they can focus on playing off each other's game in this next week, they may be in a better position to contribute offensively.

Far and away, however, they were much better vs. New York defensively and special teams-wise than against TO. If there is a series where they need to contribute offensively, this is the one.

Yep. Maybe working out the kinks is just what the doctor ordered, but you also have to think that yeah... I'm looking @ Pevs and Seguin for a little bit of an offensive breakout.

 

[N o o d l e s]

I would sit Kelly for Soderberg. I am hoping a series like Pitt that might be a little more open offensively could get Pevs back on his game. There has been and likely won't be any sign of Kelly showing up offensively. Soderberg can play on the PK and brings more puck possession from the wing. Plus he's fresh.

And I hate the excuse "Soderberg is inexperienced in the playoffs." Kelly is extremely experienced and he blows. Bad.

 

[ODAAT]

Have my doubts Sods/Dawg or Pandalfo bring anything to the table that would have me as a coach feel would exceed the Cup experience anyone on this 3rd has (yes I know Pando has cup experience)

Sods will get plenty of ice next year

 

[tom nuetten]

I know I´m one of the few guys that think jagr should be in the press box but I think something like that would improve our line-up

lkh
marchand bergeron seguin
peverley kelly dogman
merlot

I think seguin´s game has improved the last few games and he should be back with his usual linemates..

peverley kelly dogman have all speed and a good defensiv game

I think they could get some breakaway chances and would be solid on defence... jagr is a defensive liability (and was from day one), now against a great offensive opponent, I don´t want to see him play big minutes against their first or second line...

on the third line he would kill the strenght off his linemates and would be a defensive liability aswell...


I picked dogman over söderberg, because I think he is faster and he played more games on nhl ice.. I wasn´t really impressed with söderberg (I think he will be great next season)..

 

[spokedB]

To steal and paraphrase a quote, "we" sit in the stands or on a sofa watching the tv, "they" are on the ice or standing behind the bench. "We" are not playing or coaching because "we" are not good enough to do so at the NHL level. "They" are.

 

[bruinsfan46]

Don't change anything. It's unfortunate Jagr can't be more effective no matter who he plays with but I like the line up the way it is. Seguin is getting going adding some offense to the third and the second just needs to bury their chances.

 

[Gargyn]

anyone thinking claude will sit jagr needs a headshake...the guy wins puck battles a helluva lot more than seguin, something a cycling line needs. lines stay as is, why wouldnt they?

 

[David Krejci*]

Soderberg and Daugavins are nobodies. Daugavins brings nothing to the table, and Soderberg didn't show much of anything in the few games he's played. He might be good someday but to put him in for playoff proven veterans like Peverley and Kelly would be utterly ludicrous.

 

[Yeti34]

Playoff Vets LOL

Lets see how these post season vets are doing right now, Hmm not good not good at all.

Kelly Post season stats

0-0-0 -6

Pev Post season stats

1-0-1 -4

 

[Yeti34]

Soderberg and Daugavins are nobodies. Daugavins brings nothing to the table, and Soderberg didn't show much of anything in the few games he's played. He might be good someday but to put him in for playoff proven veterans like Peverley and Kelly would be utterly ludicrous.

Sods played well. The line of Jagr-Sods-Kelly worked well together.

Sods killed penalties, was physical, and drove hard to the net.

With impressive stats like I posted above for Kelly and Pevs what do you have to lose my giving one of these guys a shot.

 

[unifiedtheory]

It needs more than a "tweak" but we are in the ECF so there won't be any wholesale changes.

I would move Seguin back too the Bergeron line in the Penguin series. We will need his speed. I'd like to see Bergy wearing Crosby like a suit and if we do that the wings will have to generate the offense.

What I want to see is:

17 - 46 - 18
63 - 37 - 19
20 - 49 - 68
16 - 11 - 22

We won't break up 3 lines though.

I think regardless of what happens the rest of the way changes must/will/should be made ti the third line. I think Chiarelli wants to sign Horton. He needs some money to play with though and the money is there, if he gets rid of Peverley and Kelly. They make too much money to be a complete blackhole offensively but they have been pretty terrible all year.

17 - 46 - 18
63 - 37 - 19
34 - 51 - ??
20 - 11 - 22

Sign a veteram 3rd line winger with some size and grit.

 

[Dellstrom]

I think it's a little too late to put in someone with 5 games of NHL experience into the lineup. If they had ideas of using him in the playoffs this year he would have started.

Don't break up the foruth line. If anything, the most we can do is switch Jagr and Seguin. Hopefully Peverley and Kelly wake up, having them being completely useless really hurts us.

 

[Fopppa]

I think they're due a couple of breaks actually. Their overall game has gotten better against NYR, Segs is showing signs of heating up and with decent speed across the board that line could really be key against PIT matchup-wise if they can "just" get things going.

It's too late to change anything now anyways, barring injuries. Plus, they are all three important special-teamers, which will likely be extremely important in this series.