Do the Wings finally have the pieces needed for a rebuild on the fly?

[Dynheart]

The last 3 seasons have been pretty brutal, IMO. But It's been more so with the hype of Tatar and Nyquist, and watching them flounder out there.

THe Wings look like they finally drafted that 1C. The Wings also have a potential elite top 5 goalie in Mrazek. So with the center and goalie position covered, what could the Wings do to get a 1D? Possible a young one, so that way you have a "core", and a young one to boot.

I've wracked my brain, but I can't see any team interested in what the Wings got, for a 1D, other than Larkin no slight towards Mrazek...goalie market is totally different).

My best guess is Nyquist, Tatar, Howard, Mantha. Maybe XO (if they want a d-man in return). Picks. Something!

Waiting to ge lucky just isn't he best strat. Could waste many years that way.

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[InjuredChoker]

trading for one would be ideal as wings won't draft high enough to get guy that is ready to be #1 soon after the draft.

but that's hard. teams don't give up those and many teams that don't have #1D would be running hard after one.

but drafting one is the most likely option.

 

[Tobeflop]

I think the Wings have the pieces needed for that, but those pieces (read: players and picks) are not the ones the team holds right now. IMO, trading a few players for other players and picks are needed in order to get a proper rebuild going on the fly. I'd definitely keep Nyquil, Tats, Mantha, XO and a few others on the trading block.

EDIT: Also, if one of the teams is really willing to take Howard's contract, just hand it over to them. Please.

 

[splot]

#1D on this message board seems to mean to 5 or top 10 D in the league. With that in mind, I'll go ahead and say no, as long as the other pieces are good enough you don't need a "number one D-man". It helps of course, but people are way too hung up on it.

 

[Chance on Chance]

#1D on this message board seems to mean to 5 or top 10 D in the league. With that in mind, I'll go ahead and say no, as long as the other pieces are good enough you don't need a "number one D-man". It helps of course, but people are way too hung up on it.

Then its more like you need 3 #2 D. We need a big minute muncher for the playoffs. Keith was getting 27+ minutes.

 

[PullHard]

#1D on this message board seems to mean to 5 or top 10 D in the league. With that in mind, I'll go ahead and say no, as long as the other pieces are good enough you don't need a "number one D-man". It helps of course, but people are way too hung up on it.

If you look at the last few relevant teams like Chicago, LA, Boston, Detroit they have or had those guys, though

Pittsburgh would be a possible outlier with Letang, Gonchar, etc. who were good but not 5-10 best D in the league at the time. But they had 2 of the best Cs in the league.

Even finals teams like Tampa Bay, Philly etc have or had Hedman, Pronger the list goes on

I'd say that it isn't impossible to win without one, it could be done for sure with the right roster, but having one of those types of players offers a substantial advantage.

 

[Winger98]

If you look at the last few relevant teams like Chicago, LA, Boston, Detroit they have or had those guys, though

Pittsburgh would be a possible outlier with Letang, Gonchar, etc. who were good but not 5-10 best D in the league at the time. But they had 2 of the best Cs in the league.

Even finals teams like Tampa Bay, Philly etc have or had Hedman, Pronger the list goes on

I'd say that it isn't impossible to win without one, it could be done for sure with the right roster, but having one of those types of players offers a substantial advantage.

I wonder if we're going to see a shift with the longer the cap is in place and the greater parity swamps the league (not to mention possible expansion the talent/draft dilution that will go hand in hand with that). I just don't think teams will be able to continue putting all of those elite pieces together and then keeping them together for any length of time. We've seen Chicago continually have to load/unload and go with a pretty average goalie and a round robin of second line centers for their cup runs, Boston slid out of "elite" territory as a team pretty quickly, LA's been up and down. TB is looking at the very real possibility of losing Stamkos. Etc.

For all of the worry about grabbing that #1 guy around here, the worry should maybe focus on simply upgrading and fitting our system a bit better. Of course, I am sure there will then be an argument around here over what exactly constitutes an upgrade and what we should be willing to pay for it (see the talk about Tyutin, for example).

 

[PullHard]

I wonder if we're going to see a shift with the longer the cap is in place and the greater parity swamps the league (not to mention possible expansion the talent/draft dilution that will go hand in hand with that). I just don't think teams will be able to continue putting all of those elite pieces together and then keeping them together for any length of time. We've seen Chicago continually have to load/unload and go with a pretty average goalie and a round robin of second line centers for their cup runs, Boston slid out of "elite" territory as a team pretty quickly, LA's been up and down. TB is looking at the very real possibility of losing Stamkos. Etc.

For all of the worry about grabbing that #1 guy around here, the worry should maybe focus on simply upgrading and fitting our system a bit better. Of course, I am sure there will then be an argument around here over what exactly constitutes an upgrade and what we should be willing to pay for it (see the talk about Tyutin, for example).

Yeah, for sure. The cap will play with a team's ability to remain a contender and like you cited, Chicago has had to do a lot of GMing over the last few years to keep their key few pieces in town. It is unlikely another club will make as many good decisions as Bowman and company have again in the near future and it will likely be just a 2 or 3 year thing where teams are really strong and then players will move on.

Will be interesting because that sounds exactly the opposite way of how Ken Holland or the Detroit Red Wings would allow things to go for their team, so will the Wings be able to somehow navigate the cap better than other teams? Doesn't seem like it based on the recent history with Howard, Ericsson, Abdelkader's contracts on the books and giving either too much money, too much term, or both to pretty average NHL types.

 

[chances14]

Yeah, for sure. The cap will play with a team's ability to remain a contender and like you cited, Chicago has had to do a lot of GMing over the last few years to keep their key few pieces in town. It is unlikely another club will make as many good decisions as Bowman and company have again in the near future and it will likely be just a 2 or 3 year thing where teams are really strong and then players will move on.

Will be interesting because that sounds exactly the opposite way of how Ken Holland or the Detroit Red Wings would allow things to go for their team, so will the Wings be able to somehow navigate the cap better than other teams? Doesn't seem like it based on the recent history with Howard, Ericsson, Abdelkader's contracts on the books and giving either too much money, too much term, or both to pretty average NHL types.

problem is the salary cap doesn't really allow much room for loyalty contracts. but ken holland has been handing them out like candy

 

[HOCKEYTOWN1990]

Dekeyser and Marchenko are good building blocks for the d core. Yes we don't have an absolute stud like Lidstrom anymore, and more than likely we will never see a talent like that again. I mean he made Ian White serviceable for a year.

 

[obey86]

I often see people say, "you need to essentially tank and have a top 5 pick to rebuild properly and have any chance of competing" You know why it may seem that way? Because within the last 11 years 80% of the teams in the NHL have had a top 5 pick.

So of course pretty much all the teams that make the finals are going to have done it with top 5 picks lol.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I think we have a lot of good pieces. Larkin looks like a number 1 center, Mrazek a number 1 tender, Svechnikov and Mantha could wind up top line players in their own right. Tons of ancillary support players through the bottom 9. We have a lot of guys who project to be middle and bottom pairing guys. Our biggest pipeline weakness, which we all know, is a top pairing defenseman. It's something we lack at all levels of the game.

 

[Frk It]

No. Although the term "rebuild on the fly" irks me. If the goal of a "rebuild" is to come out of that with a roster that is capable of contending for a cup, I don't see how that is possible to do while remaining competitive, outside of getting insanely lucky.

We have done well all things considered. Larkin looks like that was a home run selection. Mrazek in round 5 was another beauty, looks like he can be a top goalie on this league, though I don't think a top goalie is 1) necessary, or 2) something you build around. Our defense looks bleak to me, and I don't see reinforcements coming to change that much.

Need more of an identity. A little heavy with playmakers and perimeter players at forward. We don't draft and develop offensive defenseman well at all. We need to diversify a bit better with our roster.

 

[DanZ]

How have Nyquist and Tatar floundered? They are what most people projected them to be... 50-60 point top 6 wingers... They aren't going to be the corner stones of our franchise for the next 15 years but they've done what we've expected them to do so far. One area they could improve is their playoff production.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

No. Although the term "rebuild on the fly" irks me. If the goal of a "rebuild" is to come out of that with a roster that is capable of contending for a cup, I don't see how that is possible to do while remaining competitive, outside of getting insanely lucky.

We have done well all things considered. Larkin looks like that was a home run selection. Mrazek in round 5 was another beauty, looks like he can be a top goalie on this league, though I don't think a top goalie is 1) necessary, or 2) something you build around. Our defense looks bleak to me, and I don't see reinforcements coming to change that much.

Need more of an identity. A little heavy with playmakers and perimeter players at forward. We don't draft and develop offensive defenseman well at all. We need to diversify a bit better with our roster.

I think we have a nice mix of variety in the pipeline. We have Mantha, who looks like a big scoring threat, Svechnikov who plays with snarl, size, and edge, Bertuzzi who looks like a good middle 6 type player with lots of snarl, Turgeon who looks like a responsible third line center who can contribute some offense, Frk who looks like a a bottom 6 scoring winger.

As far as offensive prospects go, there's plenty to be enthused about. And all these guys compliment some combination of Tatar, Nyquist, Pulkkinen, Sheahan, and Jurco going forward.


As you said though, defense remains the biggest concern. We haven't been paying enough attention to it either. We drafted like 5 guys in 2011? Other than that, it's been sort of just been of secondary attention, which is mind boggling with the retirements of Lidstrom and Rafalski, the regression and release of Stuart, and the eventual regression of Kronwall.

 

[Frk It]

I think we have a nice mix of variety in the pipeline. We have Mantha, who looks like a big scoring threat, Svechnikov who plays with snarl, size, and edge, Bertuzzi who looks like a good middle 6 type player with lots of snarl, Turgeon who looks like a responsible third line center who can contribute some offense, Frk who looks like a a bottom 6 scoring winger.

As far as offensive prospects go, there's plenty to be enthused about. And all these guys compliment some combination of Tatar, Nyquist, Pulkkinen, Sheahan, and Jurco going forward.


As you said though, defense remains the biggest concern. We haven't been paying enough attention to it either. We drafted like 5 guys in 2011? Other than that, it's been sort of just been of secondary attention, which is mind boggling with the retirements of Lidstrom and Rafalski, the regression and release of Stuart, and the eventual regression of Kronwall.

But who's a shoot-first player? Outside of Larkin right now, everyone looks to defer.

Mantha's goals/assist ratio since graduating from Juniors isn't exactly inspiring for his prospects as strictly a scorer like we were hoping. And he's big, but not really physical at all. Is he going to want to pay the price to go to the net at the NHL level? Complete unknown, at this point. I think he will probably be like Franzen, which isn't a bad thing necessarily, but not a "power forward" one might think looking at his height and weight.

Svech I like as a potential physical scorer with top 6 potential that will play "on the inside", but that's about it from a prospect standpoint. Jurco I still think could be that guy too, but he is a tough guy to bet on at this point.

Lil Bert has the right attitude, but not sure if he has the right frame to play that way at the next level. Probably will be just a little dirtbag agitator that can score goals, haha.

I know we haven't drafted a lot of defenseman, in turn not yielding a lot of defenseman.... But I'm just a little concerned in our evaluating of junior age level defenseman. There have been guys slip through the cracks, but we always seem to have a forward queued up as BPA.

 

[InjuredChoker]

How have Nyquist and Tatar floundered? They are what most people projected them to be... 50-60 point top 6 wingers... They aren't going to be the corner stones of our franchise for the next 15 years but they've done what we've expected them to do so far. One area they could improve is their playoff production.

yeah, there were some unrealistic expectations if (much) more was expected.

though i hoped tatar would have another level in on him.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Do we need a number one defensemen to truly compete? I think the answer is probably yes. At the very least we need our best defensemen to be better than what we currently have.

I don't think a true number one will come that easy and I don't think a true current number one will be moved anytime soon. This means that we need to either trade for a defensemen (or prospect) with the potential to develop into a number one, or that we draft one.

At this point I have a hard time believing that Holland is capable of trading for a young, up and coming defensemen or prospect. I can't remember the last prospect he acquired in a trade.

You can't draft a future number one defensemen without drafting defensemen. This is clearly something that is within Holland's control and something that needs to change in short order.

I think we have a lot of very good pieces in the organization, but we do need to find a way to improve the top of our defensive depth chart.

 

[14ari13]

Mrazek, DeKeyser, Larkin.

DeKeyser is good enough.

 

[aar000n]

I would like a rob blake like d man and mantha to take the next step. I also have not given up on tartar and nyquist.

 

[Red Stanley]

The way I see it, we need several things to be legitimate contenders:
1. The biggest issue, of course, is better defensemen. Like people have said, an elite one would be nice, but a couple of good ones who can be physical and move the puck will do just fine.
2. A true power forward, one with real size, some skill, and skating ability to drive the net consistently. It would open up soooo much space for our smaller, skilled forwards to do their thing. Zetterberg used to do it somewhat, but he's not big and he's not young anymore. Abby and Helm aren't skilled enough to fill that role well, but you see them used in that capacity with questionable results.
3. Another big forward to park in front of the net on the PP and in general. Abby is ok at this, but not nearly enough of a threat like Holmstrom used to be. Plus, we need more than one of those anyway. More "ugly" goals, please.

 

[KJoe88]

Yes. Yes I do.

I've always said this and some have growled at me for it. We CAN win a cup or multiple cups with a balanced d-core. Contributions from all pairings. We don't need a Shea Weber or Karlsson, but a bunch of Kronwalls and Dekeysers.

 

[The Zermanator]

I've been thinking about this too.

I wonder if trading a ridiculous package (as in, ridiculous overpayment) composed of anyone not named Larkin or Mrazek for a great, young #1 (current or near future) might be a clearer path to contending again.

Having a core of Larkin, Mrazek, and a great #1 and trying to add complementary pieces (the Nyquist/Tatar/DeKeyser types) might be easier than having what we have now and hoping to somehow land a #1 in a more typical fashion. It's been years since Lidstrom and the team is still treading water in that regard.

Maybe making a ridiculous overpayment but finally getting that #1 might allow a lateral move (meaning the team won't necessarily be better right away) that places them in a much better position to grow and shape their roster.

Pretty unrealistic (especially with KH) but it's something I've wondered. Sort of a semi-reset if that helps.

Spitballing here but something like Nyquist + Ouellet + Svechnikov/Mantha + 2 1sts for Provorov or Werenski or something like that. Hurts to give up that ridiculous amount but then the conversation changes to 'How do we build a contender around Larkin, Mrazek, Werenski/Provorov?' Keeping in mind that even with the above package we still have Tatar, DeKeyser, Green, one of Mantha/Svechnikov, Saarijarvi, etc.

 

[19 for president]

That's a pretty huge offer for a guy not even in the NHL yet. I would totally deal Nyquist, Svech, XO, and a 1st for someone bit more established. I'd do Svech, XO, and a 1/2 to get a guy like Werenski.

I think the Wings are missing that Dman to consider them rebuilt, but they are close.

Elusive D prospect + Larkin, Mrazek, and Dekeyser is a great core. Add some complimentary parts in Abby, Tats, Nyquist, Mantha, AA, Svech, Marchy, XO, Bert, Sheahan and you have the makings of a good young team. They prob could do to add a bit more grit but I'm ok with that being a deadline addition in a couple years. It won't be a small team soon once the GR guys get here. I think Sheahan will eventually make a very good net front guy, he just needs more experience in the roll, and some decent point shots.

The big thing is that we need to start cutting the fat Asap, so we can keep all these young guys.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Mrazek is inflating how competitive this team looks. The forward depth is OK, nothing great. The defense is a clear weakness. Best option IMO is to trade for guys who are young and currently 2-3 d-men and hope they can develop further when they get here. Guys like Tyler Myers, Dougie Hamilton, etc. Remember when the Rangers traded for Ryan McDonagh he wasn't the player he is today.

It's a bit of a risk but it's not a sell your future type of risk. Larkin and Mrazek are your two untouchables. DeKeyser isn't untouchable but he's the closest to being untouchable of the guys currently on defense and you would have to feel really good about the odds of the guy you get in return being a really good d-man.

TL;DR: rebuild on the fly via drafting is unlikely to get us out of our current malaise; Kenny's gotta grow a pair and make some trades.