Dishing the Dirt

Sanf

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I found the article, cited by @tarheelhockey - The Vancouver Province appears to be the original source

It actually says since Johnson entered a slump he should be replaced by Bobby Genge.

"the writer has one strong objection to the foregoing selection, with is that Bobby Genge, the victoria point has not been given a place. Genge has been playing remarkably fine hockey this season, and he simply must be included among the all-stars"

"A glance at the records will show Frank Patrick, Genge, Taylor, Dunderdale, Kerr and Oatman would make up an aggregation of goal getters that could not be beaten in hockey."

So I'm inclined to assume they moved Oatman to RW here to assemble this group of goal scorers

Yes that is the Jimmy Hewitt´s All-Star. From Vancouver Province. I´m not sure if Tarheel has made that search himself or is that quoted from the research thread. But earlie I did not have access to Province so I needed to use that reprint by Winnipeg Tribune. Later I have found that and here is what Hewitt said.

Province 10. Feb 1914
Three positions on the team will go unchallanged. They are the wings and goal. Lehman is unquestionably the best guardian in the leagua, while Oatman and Kerr have shown themselves without equals in their positions. "Cyclone" Taylor has been filling in at centre because the Vancouver club did not have anybody else to put there, but he is properly a rover, which leaves Dunderdale the only other candidate for the centre position. Lester Patrick is a better cover point than Ernie Johnson when right, but his broken arm has miliated against his play, and on the season´s work Johnson has to be chosen. Frank Patrick has taken a long time to round into condition but he is going great guns right now and thre is no question but he must be selected over Bobby Genge and George Rochon though both of these players are going along very nicely.
 

ResilientBeast

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Yes that is the Jimmy Hewitt´s All-Star. From Vancouver Province. I´m not sure if Tarheel has made that search himself or is that quoted from the research thread. But earlie I did not have access to Province so I needed to use that reprint by Winnipeg Tribune. Later I have found that and here is what Hewitt said.

Province 10. Feb 1914
Three positions on the team will go unchallanged. They are the wings and goal. Lehman is unquestionably the best guardian in the leagua, while Oatman and Kerr have shown themselves without equals in their positions. "Cyclone" Taylor has been filling in at centre because the Vancouver club did not have anybody else to put there, but he is properly a rover, which leaves Dunderdale the only other candidate for the centre position. Lester Patrick is a better cover point than Ernie Johnson when right, but his broken arm has miliated against his play, and on the season´s work Johnson has to be chosen. Frank Patrick has taken a long time to round into condition but he is going great guns right now and thre is no question but he must be selected over Bobby Genge and George Rochon though both of these players are going along very nicely.

So the Taylor piece checks out, my data from this season says that Pitre was the rover for the Millionaires. There has to be something lost here

Taylor was a C this year - Listed at Rover
Oatman was a R this year - Listed at RW
Kerr played both wings but mostly LW - Listed a LW
Dunderdale played center mostly - Listed at C

Edit: My data says the competition from the other teams at RW was either Smokey Harris or Bobby Rowe. Players I'm almost certain Oatman is better than
 

ImporterExporter

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By the way, I was really interested in Smokey Harris because of the information IE did that portrayed him as a borderline elite physical player and a very good defensive one.

From an ATD perspective, I don't really care about All-Star LW votes in a league where all the best "forwards" played center or rover. Though I think it's good to have the information out there for "completeness" sake.

Just mentioning it because my "bump" of Harris was mentioned. I'm actually a little skeptical about his offense myself, though I am satisfied that he's at least a bit of a "pass first" guy.

I think his unanimous AS nod season with the Portland Rosebuds really gave me a better feeling for his offense. Even away from Cyclone Taylor he posted solid numbers compared to his per game averages in Vancouver. His second highest scoring season came in Portland. 1917 and that was a career high until he barely edged it in 20-21.

I think Northcott is like a 67/68 in the 7 year VsX. Harris feels like he'd fit in that general territory. Maybe a little lower if you adjust for league difference.

Certainly not a world beater, even at his peak, but a solid scoring, elite skater, and near that level physically speaking. I'd classify him as good defensively in an all time sense, though he was probably great as it relates to the PCHA alone.
 

Sanf

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I think his unanimous AS nod season with the Portland Rosebuds really gave me a better feeling for his offense. Even away from Cyclone Taylor he posted solid numbers compared to his per game averages in Vancouver. His second highest scoring season came in Portland. 1917 and that was a career high until he barely edged it in 20-21.

I think Northcott is like a 67/68 in the 7 year VsX. Harris feels like he'd fit in that general territory. Maybe a little lower if you adjust for league difference.

Certainly not a world beater, even at his peak, but a solid scoring, elite skater, and near that level physically speaking. I'd classify him as good defensively in an all time sense, though he was probably great as it relates to the PCHA alone.

One more time. What you provided was 1917 referees voting.

Dishing the Dirt

That was done week after the scorekeepers voting and scorekeepers voting was considered official one.
For example this is why Hec Fowler is the All-Star goalie of that year. He got two votes by media.

The Calgary Daily Herald - Google-uutisarkistohaku

Referees voting became "official" in 1919.

The Calgary Daily Herald March 12. 1919

By A. P. Garvey about the first Ion´s "official" PCHA all-star
...Heretofore the all-star teams have been selected by the official scorers in the various cities, but they have found it necessary to base their conclusions on what the players have shown at home...

Was that referees voting new information to ATD community. Probably. Was referees unanimous. Yes. Was that official voting. No. Did Harris get votes from media. No.

Now everyone can scrutinize this information as they want. Make their own conclusions. But ALL evidence need to be taken in consideration in research.
 

ResilientBeast

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So as we talk about PCHA goaltending in this and other threads like the HOH, as I'm finding game reviews Bert Lindsay's 1913* season is rated highly by western papers.

Calgary Herald: Feb 20, 1912

About Lehman on a PCHA All-Star team
"there is no questioning the choice of Lehman for goal for he is easily the best of the three net guardians. He has shown up wonderfully well in the games so far and the other players affirm that he is every bit as a good as Percy Lesuer of the Ottawa Stanley Cup holders, who is recognized as the best man in his position in the east.

Edmonton Bulletin: March 17, 1913

Biograph of Victoria's Machine-Like Hockey Team
"Bert is having the best season of his career and easily tops the custodians in the coast league. It is a question whether he is not in the class with the great Percy Leseur. Anyway his performances has been one of the dominant factors in the Capitols success."

So Leseur is continually used as a benchmark as the best goalie of the time. If the Edmonton Bulletin is accurate in it's depiction of Lindsay's strength that season (no reason to doubt it being so). Then that somewhat substantiates that "All-Star" he "wins" over Lehman.

Despite all their talent, it looks like Parr was probably the limiting factor in the Millionaires success. Lindsay and Lehman are clearly the class of the league in net.
 
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ResilientBeast

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I've also read through detailed game summaries for the entire 1912 season. I'm missing two games between Van/Vic they just don't seem to exist in this paper during the range. I'll keep looking

So keeping track of the supposed stars of the game or players who feature very prominently in the descriptions

PlayerMentions
Lehman8
Johnson6
L. Patrick4
Griffis4
Parr4
Lalonde4
Lindsay4
Dunderdale4
Poulin3
F. Patrick3
McDonald1
McLean1
Smith1
Rowe1
Hyland1
Smail1
Harris1
Mallen1
Gardner0
Mallen 0
Nichols0
Nicols0
Phillips0
Treherne0
Ullrick0
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Game by game breakdown (order doesn't mean anything just order I found in the text)
1JohnsonLehmanMcDonald
2GriffisJohnsonParr
3LindsayDunderdaleLalonde
4LalondeL. PatrickPoulin
5JohnsonMallenDunderdale
6Lehman
7Poulin
8GriffisF. PatrickDunderdale
9L.PatrickJohnsonMcLean
10JohnsonGriffisLehmanParr
11ParrF. PatrickGriffis
12SmithLindsay
13
14PoulinL. PatrickLindsay
15Lehman
16Lehman
17
18Parr
19LalondeF. Patrick
20RoweLehmanL. Patrick
21LehmanHylandDunderdaleL. Patrick
22SmailLalondeLindsay
23HarrisLehmanJohnson
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
So using the positions the papers listed them as having played, the "All Star Team" should look something like the following

Player:Pos:Team:
Hugh LehmanGNew Westminder Royals
Lester PatrickPVictoria Senators
Ernie 'Moose' JohnsonCPNew Westminder Royals
Newsy LalondeRVancouver Millionaires
Skinner PoulinLWVictoria Senators
Don SmithCVictoria Senators
Ran McDonaldRWNew Westminder Royals
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Some notes
  • Lehman is described glowingly as the star of the game in 8 games (out of 14 I have scans for), Parr and Lindsay also get some mentions as starring. However, you don't read a summary talking about Lehman having a bad night while the other two have a few stinkers this season.
  • This season Ernie Johnson is described as probably an MVP candidate, he's repeatedly being given glowing praise
  • Si Griffis actually gets a lot of support in these papers outside of "star of the game" counts he gets praise for being a "pillar on the defence along with F. Patrick"
  • Poor Dunderdale, if he was actually a C this year the spot would be his for the taking. I'm missing 2 Vic/Van games as I mentioned and will update if I find good descriptions but given Lalonde outscored him I give Newsy the nod.
  • Woof the forwards, Poulin earns his with decent praise amongst the forwards in the league, didn't score much but is given a lot of credit (in this Victoria based paper)
  • Smith finished 5th in scoring tied with Nichols...but Nichols is a ghost in these papers with no explicit praise
  • McDonald edges out Rowe (who split time at both wing positions apparently) as he scored more

I posted this here before moving it to my research dump thread just for discussion sake. This post will be edited into the 1912 season post.

You can subscribe as much or as little belief in this as you'd like. Further seasons I can find more detailed information and will likely combine them (provided the game summaries are actually different and not the same copy). The Daily Colonist was the only paper I could find with robust archives I had access to.
 

Sanf

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So as we talk about PCHA goaltending in this and other threads like the HOH, as I'm finding game reviews Bert Lindsay's 1913* season is rated highly by western papers.

Calgary Herald: Feb 20, 1912

About Lehman on a PCHA All-Star team
"there is no questioning the choice of Lehman for goal for he is easily the best of the three net guardians. He has shown up wonderfully well in the games so far and the other players affirm that he is every bit as a good as Percy Lesuer of the Ottawa Stanley Cup holders, who is recognized as the best man in his position in the east.

Edmonton Bulletin: March 17, 1913

Biograph of Victoria's Machine-Like Hockey Team
"Bert is having the best season of his career and easily tops the custodians in the coast league. It is a question whether he is not in the class with the great Percy Leseur. Anyway his performances has been one of the dominant factors in the Capitols success."

So Leseur is continually used as a benchmark as the best goalie of the time. If the Edmonton Bulletin is accurate in it's depiction of Lindsay's strength that season (no reason to doubt it being so). Then that somewhat substantiates that "All-Star" he "wins" over Lehman.

Despite all their talent, it looks like Parr was probably the limiting factor in the Millionaires success. Lindsay and Lehman are clearly the class of the league in net.

Yes Lindsays 1913 season was most likely his best of his career. If you are going this season by season he drops from that quite a lot towards the end of his PCHA tenure, but had nice bounceback season in NHA.

Alan Parr I have viewed somewhat average to below average pro goalie. Vancouver had few trys to put him in competition in camp (Chuck Clark, Albert Forest, Ernie Parker...), but couldn´t find any other.

Vancouver sport writer Barney Goss (to my knowledge not exactly hockey writer) described Lindsay and Parr like this after their stint.
The Sunday Oregonian, January 9, 1916
By Barney Goss
For three years Alan Parr held down the nets for Vancouver. Parr was a demon on the close in stuff, but he was fatally weak on the long-range bombardment.

Bert Lindsay lasted with Victoria a year longer than Parr did with Vancouver. Lindsay was an in-and-out performer. Like the little girl of hte story book, "when he was good, he was very, very good, but when he was bad, he was horrid."
 

ResilientBeast

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Yes Lindsays 1913 season was most likely his best of his career. If you are going this season by season he drops from that quite a lot towards the end of his PCHA tenure, but had nice bounceback season in NHA.

Alan Parr I have viewed somewhat average to below average pro goalie. Vancouver had few trys to put him in competition in camp (Chuck Clark, Albert Forest, Ernie Parker...), but couldn´t find any other.

Vancouver sport writer Barney Goss (to my knowledge not exactly hockey writer) described Lindsay and Parr like this after their stint.
The Sunday Oregonian, January 9, 1916
By Barney Goss
For three years Alan Parr held down the nets for Vancouver. Parr was a demon on the close in stuff, but he was fatally weak on the long-range bombardment.

Bert Lindsay lasted with Victoria a year longer than Parr did with Vancouver. Lindsay was an in-and-out performer. Like the little girl of hte story book, "when he was good, he was very, very good, but when he was bad, he was horrid."

I finished my review of 1912-13

Lehman has some noted bad games this season while Lindsay seems pretty consistent. They have the same "Starring" mentions but I'd give Lindsay the nod based on the game summaries. Taylor despite a weak scoring season (by his standards) gets lauded for his combination and more importantly for the ATD his "all-around game".

PlayerMentions
Taylor9
Johnson7
L. Patrick6
F. Patrick6
Lehman5
Lindsay5
Dunderdale5
Prodgers4
Parr2
Poulin2
Oatman2
Griffis2
J. McDonald1
Rowe1
Smail1
Kendall1
Mallen1
Smith0
N/A0
Harris0
R. McDonald0
Tobin0
Rochon0
Gardner0
Gardner 0
Genge0
Ullrick0
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
An AST using these descriptions should look something like the following

Player:Position:Team:
Bert LindsayGVictoria Senators
Frank PatrickPVancouver Millionaires
Ernie JohnsonCPNew Westminder Royals
Fred TaylorRVancouver Millionaires
Jack McDonaldLWVancouver Millionaires
Tommy DunderdaleCVictoria Senators
Bobby RoweRWVictoria Senators
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Notes
  • Despite a strong scoring year, Smokey Harris does not really make an impact. There's probably a way to blend this analysis with the scoring table, but by and large he isn't praised as starring in a single game
  • For defence the PCHA is quite strong at the top Johnson is still lauded for his impact regularly and both Patricks. Lester spent some time up front subbing into forward positions seemingly when he was on hot shooting nights so Frank gets the nod.
  • Lindsay and Lehman tie, Lehman has some poor performances this year while Lindsay reads fairly consistently. Lindsay gets the nod as Victoria was a dominant team this season
  • Dunderdale playing C finally gets a spot on my teams. He had a strong year
  • Wingers are a mess, Harris doesn't stand out in the summaries at all. Rowe gets one mention. Harris appears to be a RW this season
  • Jack McDonald has a strong season on LW no other good options
  • When reconciling this with the scoring table, all descriptions of the Millionaires offense seems to originate with combination play between Griffis/Taylor/Patrick. Kendall, Harris & J. McDonald feature prominently on the scoring table but don't look to be the "straw that stirs the drink" offensively for Vancouver
 
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ResilientBeast

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1913-14

All-star team:
Source: Winnipeg Tribune, February 28th 1914 (p.21)
Player:Pos:Team:
Hugh LehmanGNew Westminster Royals
Frank PatrickPointVancouver Millionaires
Ernie 'Moose' JohnsonCover PointNew Westminster Royals
Fred 'Cyclone' TaylorRoverVancouver Millionaires
Tommy DunderdaleCVictoria Aristocrats
Eddie OatmanRWNew Westminster Royals
Dubbie KerrLWVictoria Aristocrats
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
RB's Newspaper Summary AST

Player:Position:Team:
Bert LindsayGVictoria Aristocrats
Bobby GengePVictoria Aristocrats
Ernie JohnsonCPNew Westminster Royals
Didier PitreRVancouver Millionaires
Dubbie KerrLWVictoria Aristocrats
Fred TaylorCVancouver Millionaires
Ran McDonaldRWNew Westminster Royals
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
This AST from the Winnipeg Tribune has some pretty big inaccuracies positionally.
  • Oatman was definitely a rover this year (12 of his 15 games he lined up at R)
  • Taylor was definitely a center for most of this season. He moved back to R when Griffis was injured which forced Pitre to slide back to CP

Reading these summaries really drives home how difficult it is to assess PCHA players since we're tainted by the opacity of the ASTs that are floating around. Without reading these summaries I wouldn't have the respect that I'm slowly growing for Bobby Genge, Bert Lindsay, and Ran McDonald.
 

ResilientBeast

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Also FYI Wikipedia is totally wrong about several games...the dates are correct but the scores and who is even playing are most certainly not.....

With the first 3 seasons done. I'll shift to transcribing the scoring logs for now. Then I'll use that to supplement the ASTs I've "created"
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Also FYI Wikipedia is totally wrong about several games...the dates are correct but the scores and who is even playing are most certainly not.....

With the first 3 seasons done. I'll shift to transcribing the scoring logs for now. Then I'll use that to supplement the ASTs I've "created"

If wikipedia is wrong, you should edit wikipedia.

I've got into a wiki war over hockey history once before that I eventually won.
 

Sanf

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I finished my review of 1912-13

Lehman has some noted bad games this season while Lindsay seems pretty consistent. They have the same "Starring" mentions but I'd give Lindsay the nod based on the game summaries. Taylor despite a weak scoring season (by his standards) gets lauded for his combination and more importantly for the ATD his "all-around game".

PlayerMentions
Taylor9
Johnson7
L. Patrick6
F. Patrick6
Lehman5
Lindsay5
Dunderdale5
Prodgers4
Parr2
Poulin2
Oatman2
Griffis2
J. McDonald1
Rowe1
Smail1
Kendall1
Mallen1
Smith0
N/A0
Harris0
R. McDonald0
Tobin0
Rochon0
Gardner0
Gardner 0
Genge0
Ullrick0
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
An AST using these descriptions should look something like the following

Player:Position:Team:
Bert LindsayGVictoria Senators
Frank PatrickPVancouver Millionaires
Ernie JohnsonCPNew Westminder Royals
Fred TaylorRVancouver Millionaires
Jack McDonaldLWVancouver Millionaires
Tommy DunderdaleCVictoria Senators
Bobby RoweRWVictoria Senators
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Notes
  • Despite a strong scoring year, Smokey Harris does not really make an impact. There's probably a way to blend this analysis with the scoring table, but by and large he isn't praised as starring in a single game
  • For defence the PCHA is quite strong at the top Johnson is still lauded for his impact regularly and both Patricks. Lester spent some time up front subbing into forward positions seemingly when he was on hot shooting nights so Frank gets the nod.
  • Lindsay and Lehman tie, Lehman has some poor performances this year while Lindsay reads fairly consistently. Lindsay gets the nod as Victoria was a dominant team this season
  • Dunderdale playing C finally gets a spot on my teams. He had a strong year
  • Wingers are a mess, Harris doesn't stand out in the summaries at all. Rowe gets one mention. Harris appears to be a RW this season
  • Jack McDonald has a strong season on LW no other good options
  • When reconciling this with the scoring table, all descriptions of the Millionaires offense seems to originate with combination play between Griffis/Taylor/Patrick. Kendall, Harris & J. McDonald feature prominently on the scoring table but don't look to be the "straw that stirs the drink" offensively for Vancouver
To be honest I probably would have expected more for Lindsay. You are gathering this from The Daily Colonist and at some occasions they were rather homers. They wrote pretty overly praising stuff about him in the articles and "bios". The LeSueur comparasions were floating around everywhere (though in here is again one of the problems. One may have said it and other just copy it). It´s interesting that they mentioned him being "star" of the game only as many times as Lehman.

I have went that season from TDC and if you asked me my gut feeling would have been that they praised Lindsay more. Gut feeling can go wrong.
 

Sanf

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In the main research trade you list the 1915 newspaper All-Star from Portland Daily Journal. That was made by R.A. Cronin. Even though official All-Star selection did not exist, maybe in continuations sake (because that is what you are using in 1912 and 1914) there could be the Vancouver Province selection from Jimmy Hewitt. At the end it is the same, but Hewitt did not have spares listed on his.

Province 26. Feb 1915
Goal: Lehman, D: Johnson, D: L.Patrick , Rover: Taylor, Center: MacKay, RW: Oatman, LW: Nighbor

I´m not 100% sure, but @tarheelhockey may have used my old research to fill the All-Star thread in History forum. Since that I have had access to Vancouver Province (though not right now).
 

ResilientBeast

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To be honest I probably would have expected more for Lindsay. You are gathering this from The Daily Colonist and at some occasions they were rather homers. They wrote pretty overly praising stuff about him in the articles and "bios". The LeSueur comparasions were floating around everywhere (though in here is again one of the problems. One may have said it and other just copy it). It´s interesting that they mentioned him being "star" of the game only as many times as Lehman.

I have went that season from TDC and if you asked me my gut feeling would have been that they praised Lindsay more. Gut feeling can go wrong.

Reading the game summaries the Daily Colonist doesn't strike me as being super homerish in their praise of players in game summaries. Those first 2 PCHA seasons the league isn't well covered in Alberta by my two other go to sources. Provided the summaries are distinct and not identical to one another 1913-14 forward I'll be blending the game summaries a bit.

As I transcribe the goal scorers in the earlier seasons my "Newspaper AST" will probably change a bit, if I player scores a load of goals despite the text not overtly praising them. They deserve some level of recognition.
 

ResilientBeast

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Does anyone know where the PCHA assists totals actually come from? The papers only list goals never assists

Edit: at the end of 1915 I'm finding the actual assists but nothing before that
 
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Sanf

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Does anyone know where the PCHA assists totals actually come from? The papers only list goals never assists

Edit: at the end of 1915 I'm finding the actual assists but nothing before that

Well the answer to this is the scorekeepers from different cities. Now I do not know who they were in early years. This actually lead to a bit of mindblowing experience. I have clipped some of those statistic pages from Vancouver Daily World where they printerd those and tried to look the answer from there.

Now the Barney Goss (who I just few days ago said did not strike as hockey writer) was actually the official stat recorder for PCHA in the early years. I haven´t paid much attention to those and managed to totally miss that. He compiled those stat pages.

Now and then I found for 1914 All-Star selection from Barney Goss from 1914. For a moment there I was exited that finally I have an answer on who was the source for those Trail All-Stars. But again a miss. This is yet another different selection. But could this be the one that they called "official". I need to go back to that.


Vancouver Daily World 4 March 1914
Raising the selection on the records and on a personal attendance on nearly every game played in association since its organization and confining the selection of players to positions regularly played, I should select the following as the nearest approach to an All-Star team which could be named from the coast association:

Goal: Lehman; Point: Frank Patrick; Coverpoint Lester Patrick; Rover Taylor; Centre Dunderdale; Right Wing, Oatman; Left Wing Kerr
 

Sanf

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Does anyone know where the PCHA assists totals actually come from? The papers only list goals never assists

Edit: at the end of 1915 I'm finding the actual assists but nothing before that

It is fairly interesting that The Vancouver Daily World seemed to be only one to mention the assists. Now digging through New Westminster News and they do not have it either even they have decent hockey coverage. I do not have access to Vancouver Province now, but from my clippings it seem that they do not have assist either.
 

ResilientBeast

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@ImporterExporter here's a good quote from The Seattle Star on Lehman v Holmes circa Feb 04, 1916
 

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ResilientBeast

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@Sanf or anyone else, do we know what the substitution rules were at the time? All my paper scans list substitutions by period usually, but with no indication of when.

Were substitutions limited to a certain time?
 

Sanf

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@Sanf or anyone else, do we know what the substitution rules were at the time? All my paper scans list substitutions by period usually, but with no indication of when.

Were substitutions limited to a certain time?

I remember reading about the rules (I do believe those weren´t same every season), but haven´t saved or clipped anywhere. Atleast that I can remember. I try to look deeper
 

Theokritos

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Now that's what I call dishing the dirt: For no less than 67 years, Leo Boivin's date of birth has been falsely listed as 1932! He was actually born one year earlier:

Side note: As Dave Stubbs has now pointed out via SIHR, virtually every source lists Boivin's birth date as August 2, 1932, which is false:

"Leo’s obituary, just published by his family, says Aug. 2, 1931, the date that appeared on his first three Maple Leafs Parkhurst cards, then inexplicably became Aug. 2, 1932 when he was traded to the Bruins."
 
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sr edler

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Montreal Gazette from December 31, 1919 describing the Ottawa Hockey Club (Senators) having to vaccinate to enter Montreal, QC.

901usQs.jpg
 
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